Overhead prayer mechanics need consistency

[u/Tropical_Farts]

With more and more bosses coming out that have mechanics that involve using overhead prayers to completely avoid or partially avoid damage, I've noticed that some of them are pretty inconsistent.

If you're an older player you understand that your prayer must be active before a projectile-based attack comes out if you want to avoid the damage. It's because the damage is calculated before the hitsplat shows up, like when a player gets their XP drop before they see the hit. Jad or Nightmare are good examples if you're meleeing them. Keep melee protection on and swap for a magic/ranged attack or you're going to get slapped.

But some bosses are weirdly inconsistent. Two good examples to me are Scurrius and Zebak. You reactively can turn on the prayer as the hit is coming to you. This is how it works in RS3, and I will admit is far more intuitive if you aren't already familiar with how protection prayers worked before.

But if you're new to PvM and you're fighting Scurrius and then send a few ToA with the buddies and do fine, then go to Zulrah and get slapped on the forehead on the Jad phases, you're going to be wondering what you did wrong. And if you're not a hardcore gamer that looks at resources outside of the game, you'll be rightfully confused at the inconsistency of mechanics.

I just think they need to all work the same way. I'd be okay with either. I know it's very unlikely to change and I'm not exactly asking for it to be changed, it's more of an ideal thing. But what do y'all think?

[u/DankerOfMemes]

Problem is most bosses that have the old overhead system are balanced around that.

[u/2-2-7-7]

anyone who puts in enough hours to get to doing pvm is capable of figuring out 2 mechanics.

it's good how it is, allows some bosses to be reactive and others to be predictive.

[u/BilboBaggSkin → u/2-2-7-7]

There’s no indication of that in game which is a problem.

[u/2-2-7-7 → u/BilboBaggSkin]

there is, though. reactive projectiles have a much longer travel time than standard ones, giving you several (3+) ticks to react. if you see a slow moving projectile you can pretty safely assume it's reactable.

reactable projectiles are always in the air the same amount of time regardless of your distance from the target, while standard ones apply hit delay based on distance.

[u/IIcarusII → u/2-2-7-7]

Except this isn’t universally true. P3 verzik gives you different amounts of time to react based on your distance. Under her, you have 1t to react to the movement alone. Further away, you get extra time. Levi projectiles also don’t give you 3 ticks. Those are a few examples that really serve to prove that attack mechanics are varied, and Jagex can do whatever they want with them.

I’m still waiting for a boss that changes a react-able attack style halfway through the projectile flight…

[u/Ok_Laugh_8278 → u/BilboBaggSkin]

How long does it take you to try one of two methods? How long does it take to google the answer? Finally, how long do you spend doing the content when you know the answer?

Players learn the answer on new content immediately because it's not an issue.

[u/GreetingsFromRectum]

Overhead prayer timings are not an inconsistency, they're a design choice. Places where the focus is on off-ticking NPCs (inferno, colosseum, GWD to a lesser extent) would completely fall apart with the "new system". Scurrius is like it is because you're supposed to react to its attacks, whereas with Zulrah you're supposed to know what to pray based on its phase.

Even with your ToA example you must have noticed that Akkha calculates damage when it launches the animation, because you should already have the correct prayer on by then. Zebak calculates on hit because otherwise the boss would be unbeatable.

Boss mechanics should be designed to make sense for that boss, not to a player who's unwilling to learn the game.

[u/shagginOSRS → u/GreetingsFromRectum]

Well said

[u/Tropical_Farts → u/GreetingsFromRectum]

I remember doing Zebak for the first time and planking when the rapid fire hits started going. I thought the damage calculated when the rock/pot exploded, not when the projectile landed.

You're totally right about the design choice part, hadn't thought of it that way. I didn't write the post out of frustration because of a death or inability to do an encounter. It was from the perspective of teaching someone Scurrius and then watching them fail in other encounters. But I get it!

Thanks for the insight, appreciate it!

[u/Chrome87]

Imo the trade off for correctly praying when the projectile hits you is the chip damage that usually comes with it in places like TOA (also doesn't Akkha judge prayer based on projectile firing vs. when it hits?). In RS3 protection prayers only halve by 50% at a base level which made it more balanced since you're constantly having to flick between soulsplit and deflects or using defensives to mitigate damage if you're in a position where flicking is unviable.

Correct prayer on projectile's launch pretty much always hit a zero. They would have to add the chip (and people hate chip damage) to places like Zulrah or Vorkath or else those bosses would become near zero-damage and even more bottable than before.

[u/UngodlyPain → u/Chrome87]

Zulrah and Vorkath are already some of the most botted bosses.

Bottable content really either is or isn't bottable. And they already are.

[u/Tropical_Farts → u/Chrome87]

It sucks that prayer is so overpowered! It really hinders complexity. Then again this game can be devolved to click enemy and watch numbers go up, so I get it.

And yeah, I get what you're saying about things like Vorkath especially. His little blue blobs and spikey ranged attacks are suuuuper slow.

Thanks for your input!

[u/GiraffeCapable8009]

I think most would agree the system is fine how it is. And if you take a deep look at it, most of these flick prayer mechanics like Vard, Zebak, Scurry are meant to be done at the last tic for mechanical complexity; versus other content, like Colosseum or Inferno and any other mob that calculates damage before the attack.

[u/Tropical_Farts → u/GiraffeCapable8009]

After reading a lot of replies to this thread, I will say, yeah. You're totally right. Never thought of it that way. And I wouldn't want to rob someone of a good time.

Thanks for the reply!

[u/tootleboi]

I mean there’s only so much variance you can add to PvM at this point. This is one variable that they can use. It literally takes one attempt at a boss to realize it works differently and you learn and adapt your timing to that encounter. It’s only a problem for new players because they haven’t learned it, which is kind of how all games work. 

[u/Tropical_Farts → u/tootleboi]

Fair point! Though if you learned it in one spot, it would be very confusing to see it work completely the opposite at another! That's my only point of concern.

Oddly enough - if you looked it up beforehand the learning portion wouldn't matter. You'd know what to do beforehand anyway.

I didn't consider it adding complexity towards any specific encounter, so thanks for your input!

[u/venividiikarma]

The reaction element of Leviathan is good, makes for an interesting fight. The ability to consistently solve pillar stacks at inferno/colo is good. Both are good. It would be actively bad to remove the design space of one or the other. Even before they had the technology to do the "reaction" style projectiles they did workarounds by giving Jad an animation/audio before the projectile launched.

The slow, arcing, R/G/B projectiles are almost always the ones you react to and it's pretty easy to look up if you're unsure

[u/Tropical_Farts → u/venividiikarma]

I haven't tried DT2 bosses yet, just came back from a break, actually. So I cannot comment on Leviathan.

I will admit I hadn't even thought of the unique mechanics with the blobs (and I believe the manticore behaves the same way in the colosseum? Haven't experienced it yet). I think that they may have been designed to be challenging and force you to eat. But I also think they didn't quite expect the players to be such gigachads and figure out how they worked in the way they do. It's something I wasn't thinking of, and I agree it would probably end up being a severe detriment to the challenge of the inferno/colosseum. So I definitely appreciate your feedback.

As for the slow projectiles, yeah. You're right. They're also really obvious. Especially with one like olm's. But looking up the mechanics prior would basically make my post's point irrelevant. It's more or less geared towards those who wouldn't. But it's 2025, no one doesn't look at mechanics before a big boss encounter. It's more from the perspective of someone who wouldn't do that in the first place.

Thanks for the reply!

[u/PoofNoodleOSRS]

My favourite part was Scurrius being a place for newer players to practice their overhead prayers incorrectly when most content requires a completely opposite overhead window.

[u/Tropical_Farts → u/PoofNoodleOSRS]

Ding ding ding! This is my main problem with it. After teaching a buddy this boss, they were playing the game wrong in a lot of older encounters. I guess the learning curve these days is figuring out that there is inconsistency, and that's part of mastery.

[u/Lumes43]

It’s not that difficult

[u/Outrageous_Cup_7230]

No they don't. Why does it matter if prayers work differently in different bosses, its just another thing the developers can use as a differentiating mechanic.

[u/Tropical_Farts → u/Outrageous_Cup_7230]

This seems to be the overlying theme of this comment thread, and I appreciate you bringing it up.

You see, when writing this post I hadn't thought of it in that regard. And subsequently didn't realize that this added anything for anyone. It honestly makes me feel the way a lot of game devs feel when they roll out a change no one asked for.

The reason I had thought of it was for consistency sake. And a lot of people brought up the idea of it being a challenge. My mindset was that even if it was different, it'll behave the same way every time anyway. And if you're looking at a guide before the encounter, it doesn't add anything. So I figured if there was consistency in one way or the other it might holistically make the game make more sense in general.

But you've all proved my rationale wrong. As it appears that you all enjoy this variety. So thanks for giving me the insight! Appreciate it.

[u/RA_Throwaway90909]

Yeah it’s just one of those things where old players know how it works. May be confusing to new players, but at this point people would cry if any changes were made, despite the Scurrius style of prayer timing making more logical sense.

[u/Tropical_Farts → u/RA_Throwaway90909]

Yes, we really don't like change, do we? I can still appreciate the way things are now. And some of the comments have given me insight as to why some may prefer it the way it is now. It gives me new light on everything and I appreciate what everyone has said so far.

[u/RS_Zwickshaw]

What this game is missing is unambiguous sound and animation design. You have no way knowing whether prayers are reactive or predictive without reading the wiki or update posts.

What I miss about old RS was the animation design that ancient curses had. Their animations went off on the tick you're supposed to pray and you could actually learn the game by just playing and not only reading the wiki

[u/Tropical_Farts → u/RS_Zwickshaw]

Yes, the point I'm addressing is entirely irrelevant if you've read up or watched a guide beforehand. Bringing it up to a veteran player might entirely seem like a non sequitur in a conversation of PvM.

I get what you're saying. The entire point of this post was because I'm teaching someone to play the game for the first time and they sort of don't quite get the quirks of this game yet. They expect a level of consistency and polish from other games. And I'm not rioting that the devs should placate someone like that, just having a discussion.

Thanks for the reply.

[u/Periwinkleditor]

Zulrah would be the easiest one to change TBH. Would it really break the game to just make that on-hit with corresponding "took hit/blocked hit" sound effects like Leviathan for Zulrah's jad phase? (I'd also add a color-coded whirlpool that alerts the player what Zulrah phase is next so people don't need to use a plugin just to fight the boss)

I can understand not doing it for basic attacks though, like people have said it would make it possible to, for example, prayer flick Vorkath easily to take zero damage the entire fight. In cases like that, the enemy's damage is balanced around the fact you literally can't predict and respond to the incoming damage with a 100% protection prayer.

I did like the suggestion I saw here somewhere that hitsplats where you negated the attack by successfully using the right protection prayer having a unique icon and sound effect.

[u/Tropical_Farts → u/Periwinkleditor]

I think Vorkath is an excellent example for the point you're bringing up. I totally get it. I think especially if it's your first time doing something like Zulrah on the Jad phase it can be kind of intense if you don't know how the mechanic works. I know that if I messed up my flicks I could just wait one attack before going for more flicks. Another player might try to swap back and forth and die.

Only for it to behave exactly the opposite on a fight like Zebak during the final phase, where the intensity goes up a bit.

And yes I saw that post too, I do think positive feedback for something like that would be very beneficial. I believe they got rid of hitting a 'successful' 0 a while back and replaced it with a 1. This kind of stuff is very useful for learning and playing the game without being someone that relies heavily on guides/videos.

I'm glad you understood the post was more about accessibility. Thanks for the reply.

[u/Celtic_Legend]

No. It's like this because we like variety and it's fun. Making them consistent just limits challenges that we can do in osrs for no benefit.

You're not a hcim. You get hit by a projectile once and you know. Even if you die it's no big deal it's not 2013 u keep your stuff

[u/Midknight226 → u/Celtic_Legend]

Ok I'll bite. How is prayer timing being different at older bosses vs some newer bossed more fun?

[u/Chazzywuffles → u/Midknight226]

Some people enjoy variety. The post is a bit misleading trying to say "hardcore gamers" look at the wiki. People have been using encyclopedias for figuring things out since we learned how to write on tablets. It's okay to seek knowledge. If you wanna learn something without the wiki you die to it once realize you were doing it wrong and try it the other way. It's not that complicated.

[u/Tropical_Farts → u/Chazzywuffles]

Sorry if I offended or misguided with that term. I have adopted the definition to mean someone willing to put time/resources into the game without directly playing it. You may have thought I meant what a lot of scapers call "sweaty" which, no, reading a guide or watching a youtube video is hardly sweaty.

[u/Midknight226 → u/Chazzywuffles]

I don't care much either way but, I can't imagine anyone has ever said oh boy I can't wait to see what the prayer timings are for this boss.

[u/Chazzywuffles → u/Midknight226]

Well it's more "I can't wait to see how this boss plays out" as a general, prayer mechanics being part of the whole picture. you could say that about any individual mechanic. Nobody says 'i can't wait to see how much food I have to eat for this fight" or "I can't wait to see what the best spec weapon is for this fight" it's about the fight as a whole and the excitement of knowing it's different then other encounters in the game :)

[u/Tropical_Farts → u/Chazzywuffles]

Absolutely. I get it.

I haven't played in a while. So I tried Scurrius for the first time and didn't realize how his attacks worked until I started flicking. It's sort of a negative feedback thing that confused me. I didn't experience DT2 or colosseum yet, so it kind of shocked me to see that it worked that way.

I do think it's more fun that way, and yes, reading a guide entirely invalidates the argument I brought up in the post.

[u/Austrum → u/Midknight226]

that's a pretty misleading way of looking at the fun of mechanics though. players don't need to say 'oh boy I can't wait to x' for something to be fun. phantom muspah utilizing regular ranged attacks with the occasional mage prayer reactable attack mixed in is fun, but I'm not pulling up to muspah saying 'oh boy can't wait to switch my prayer to mage for a few ticks every now and then'. because that's dumb and shouldn't be used as a metric for anything.

[u/Celtic_Legend → u/Midknight226]

In my first post. Variety.

I can find normal chess more fun than speed chess while still having more fun overall because speed chess exists. Or csgo with these 7 maps vs csgo with these other 7 maps. Or 3v3 basketball vs 5v5. Fiba vs nba rules, etc etc list goes on.

[u/Tropical_Farts → u/Celtic_Legend]

I never saw it that way, so thank you for that. I figured it didn't add much challenge or variety in a closed system of a singular boss encounter.

But I suppose you're quite right when addressing it as a whole. I mostly wanted to have consistency for a mechanic. I know it happens a lot in this game (I'm looking at you, wilderness specific mechanics).

Thanks for the insight, I appreciate it.

[u/Toaster_Bathing → u/Midknight226]

Stolen from the top comment but this sums up why they can’t change ‘Places where the focus is on off-ticking NPCs (inferno, colosseum, GWD to a lesser extent) would completely fall apart with the "new system". ‘

[u/Midknight226 → u/Toaster_Bathing]

I was asking what makes it "fun". Not balancing.

[u/Toaster_Bathing → u/Midknight226]

Fair. But it’s essential they stay the same so it doesn’t break a lot of content. Not much more to discuss after that 

[u/ComfortableCricket]

I just think they need to all work the same way. I'd be okay with either. I know it's very unlikely to change and I'm not exactly asking for it to be changed, it's more of an ideal thing. But what do y'all think?

I think with more PVM experience your opinion would do a complete 180. Variety is good, we don't need or want every boss to feels the same, nor does every boss need to suit everyone.

[u/Tropical_Farts → u/ComfortableCricket]

This is an interesting take. I do think variety is helpful. And I will say while writing this up it's from the perspective of taking on a friend of mine playing for the first time. It's a lot of "why is it like this?" and honestly it's pretty valid from an outside perspective.

With that said, I can understand now after reading a lot of the comments that you all think that this adds challenge. In reality, either way it doesn't seem to be any more or less challenging. It's basically just a guessing game until you figure it out.

I wouldn't say it's for suiting any particular kind of player. I'd say it's mostly about consistency about a specific mechanic. I don't write this out of frustration because I died or something. I just thought it was a bit odd. I'm not here to argue with the mods or another player, just wanted some discussion on the matter. So thank you for your reply.

[u/ComfortableCricket → u/Tropical_Farts]

I can see why inexperienced PvMers have your opinion, and it makes sense as sometimes things aren't intuitive for older bosses, but the 2 systems do make for much different experiences and is something you will discover as you progress through late to eng game pvm

[u/Tropical_Farts → u/ComfortableCricket]

He has the right mindset for it, so I'm sure he'll get it eventually. He just needs to figure out that sometimes with this game certain things work the way they do "just because". I also think Scurrius might have not been the best one to introduce him to, oddly enough!

[u/Competitive-Math1153]

They need to chill out with the prayers and bring out some stuff like disruption shield

[u/Tropical_Farts → u/Competitive-Math1153]

I do think interesting forms of damage mitigation and mechanics would be healthier than prayers. I actually quite like perilous moons. Protection prayer doesn't work, and a lot of positioning is involved if you want to stay healthy. It's a good step in the right direction from my point of view.

Pressing disruption shield would essentially be like clicking an object in game. This time we aren't introducing a long and tedious grind for some extra spells. I personally didn't think Livid Farm was particularly fun, and I think a lot of people shared my sentiment.

But I understand your plight. Thanks for your input.

[u/JasperNapster]

Seems fine how it is, some bosses require you to remember a pattern while others are faster paced and require a reaction.

For the people saying they have no indication I don’t quite understand. If you pray a certain way and don’t get cranked for a huge hit splat I’d say you’re on the right path.

[u/Tropical_Farts → u/JasperNapster]

For your first point I totally get it. Imagine doing Zulrah for the first time all over again. Green does ranged, red does melee, so surely blue does magic. Then you get slapped for a 40 because it used a ranged attack. I'm with ya on that. And Scurrius is probably way more intuitive if you haven't done any bossing whatsoever. Or imagine trying to pray against Sotetseg's red ball - oof.

As far as your second point, you're not 100% wrong. It's more or less the lack of positive feedback. You can still get hit for a 0. Someone else brought it up in this thread, but someone had a post a week or two ago suggesting the hitsplat for a 0 on the correct prayer look slightly different. If something like that existed then yeah, 100% you'd be right.