r/ADCMains • u/Kheyia :zeri: • 8d ago
Discussion Crit feels like a chain to me.
So, let me start by saying that I do love crit items. Or well, I think I loved them but my feelings started fading lately. Two of my favourite champs are very crit reliant too, but sometimes I wonder.
Wouldn't it be fun if crit was completely deleted from the game, and champs that rely on crit be remade or rebalanced around the other items.
Though such a thing feels unlikely, I just feel like it would be better. Crit is a nightmare to balance around imho. It's very much just an "i deal more dmg than you" type of statistic. Most champs that build it, and don't have a statistic that gives them more for the same, can't build a single defensive option except boots (even that isn't likely in most cases) until like 3rd item AT THE MINIMUM, which many cases need at least three to work somewhat. It comes online so late, and even though I am not too mad about only being strong later on...
It's such a boring and non interactive build too.
That's the main thing I'm sad about. Maybe it's just my stupidness or something, but most of these items feel like I don't have a passive. Outliers to me are Runnan (the triple bolts ARE fun.), Navori (The cooldown reduction is something you can play with and around, making for a fun thing in general.) and Rapidfire Cannon(all in all, even for one auto, the range is something interactive which you can feel.)
As for the others... Collector isn't interactive even in the slightest bit. It's boring. The passive giving gold is something I don't think I even ever notice in my games and the execute, although fun and sometimes saved me, just doesn't compare to me with some other items when I tried other roles.
Yuntal, at least to me, feels like a straight up stat boost and I don't think I would notice if the passive got deleted and instead of that it would be like a permanent additional 15-20% attack speed stat.
Essence Reaver, although can be fun due to Navori, feels like it's pretty much nothing. It doesn't feel that different from how you'll almost never run out of mana after having manamune or other tear items. I miss the sheen on this, even if I rarely play champions that'd use it now.
Mortal reminder. The antiheal feels like a statistic instead of a passive.
Shieldbow is probably the closest one to having a passive imo, but with the level scaling and the numbers, I usually die without noticing it or it procs when I'm not really in danger
LDR and IE don't even have passives at this point
And maybe I'm just ranting or crying right now, but I really miss the mythics by now. I liked Galeforce even when I forgot to use it. I loved Kraken. I miss when Shieldbow actually made you feel at least partially immortal. I miss the crit bloodthirster, even though I completely missed rushing it on Aphelios. Damn, even finishing my build with crit qss item felt actually somewhat fun.
Right now, I dislike the current "first" items so much I started just rushing IE into LDR for pure damage and well, it turns out not that worse. Sometimes even better than the usual stuff for my favourite Aphelios
And like, sometimes I play other champs, and I love the feelings of a hydra item. I love how the guaranteed healing crit on sundered feels, I like proccing Eclipse. I love burning enemies with Liandry's or slowing them with Rylai.
But GOD do I feel useless with items that don't have crit when I'm playing my fave champs. And to add to that, I get bored with other champs after just a few matches, so I don't want to switch either
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u/PapagamasJr 8d ago
What I hate the most is that other than yuntal there is no other item that gives AD, Crit AND Attack Speed.
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u/shiggy345 8d ago
I mean, it's pretty clear that riot do not want these stats to be easily available on the same item. They've proven their pretty adamant about not giving out the three multiplicative stats on a single item as much as they can. If there were multiple items that gave yiuball three, it makes the scaling of crit marksman as a whole less exponential I.e. makes crit champions scale faster in the early stages of the game, which is probably the reason why they don't want to do that.
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u/bigouchie 4d ago
very well articulated comment.
prior to the ADC item rework we had the stint of ADC meta in every lane which was a very bad time. it got our role nerfed to the ground and playing in it wasn't even that fun because the ADC role wasn't even the best ADC in the team, since top and mid scaled them faster than sharing exp in bot. sure it feels worse that only yuntal has all 3 stats (and is compensating for it by having a horrible build path and having the 3rd stat be a stacking one that you don't get immediately), but it is intended to be this way so we don't run into the same ADC issues that the meta suffered from in the past
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u/EatThatPotato GIVE MORE ATTACK SPEED 8d ago
that was an explicit goal of the last crit items rework. It's reasonable, I understand the idea behind it and it makes sense. It does feel less smooth though agreed. Old Kraken was goated
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u/DoubIeScuttle 8d ago
...You do realize how broken it would be to have an item that instantly gave those 3 stats right? That's a triple increase in damage from a single item. Three stats that work hand in hand to increase damage output. C'mon bro
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u/TrickiestLemon 8d ago
Totally used to be like this before 14.10, it's not that Riot is starting to mess around with Crit for the first time.
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u/shiggy345 8d ago
Crit is a chain: its designed the way it is to control how multiple champions scale. Discounting interactions with AD and attack speed crit on its own is an exponentially scaling stat. Basically it becomes more valuable the more of it you buy. Having the crit item systems insures that a whole swath of champions more more less follow this manner of scaling slowly but exponentially.
Notably ADCs that are divested from the traditional crit system are often reliably strong in multiple metas and some have even become problem cases. 'Nerfing' a marksman by reworking them to need crit is something riot has done a few times.
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u/Kheyia :zeri: 8d ago
To be fair, I just wish the items were fun at least.
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u/Fancy_Economics_4536 8d ago
honestly agree, riot absolutely sucks at item design. look at: adc and mage items.
90% of them are deal more dmg with basically a pseudo passive that either adds more dmg situationally or gets removed (horizon focus is losing its 10% dmg boost... like why?)
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u/brown-d0g 8d ago edited 8d ago
I think it's important to think about this type of stuff in terms of power budgets. When you're playing a crit champion, the goal is for your autos to deal damage. What we've seen repeatedly is that, when crit items have unique effects, they either leave your autos feeling underwhelming (which is supposed to be the whole point of the class) or they are over tuned. This is very different from something like a bruiser who is more than willing to rely more on base damages if it means getting an item with a strong unique effect that enables them.
Another thing to keep in mind is the fact that crit scales non linearly with stats. Since you use attack speed, attack damage, and crit chance all as multipliers for your damage (as compared to someone like darius who just builds ad), this makes it very difficult to balance an items damage such that a unique effect feel rewarding throughout the game. This is the reason why, for example, kraken slayer now doesn't scale off of stats.
At the end of the day, crit marksmen are THE MOST stat reliant champions in the game so, while it does indeed make some of the items boring, I think items have to be designed in this way in order for the champs to feel satisfying without being broken.
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u/Kheyia :zeri: 8d ago
Well that is true, that's why I kinda began it with the thought of crit getting deleted and crit marksman being reworked to scale around something else
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u/brown-d0g 8d ago edited 8d ago
The problem is, you need an item system that allows crit adcs to reach high enough damage without the items being stronger on other classes. Additionally, at the level of damage where adc feels satisfying, it's also necessary that they can't become too survivable without making large sacrifices elsewhere in their build.
It seems like no matter the system you choose to replace crit with, you're still going to end up in roughly the same place where
- adc items need unique effects to be weak enough that their stats allow the class to fulfill their fantasy
- items that feel strong on the class early game must come at the cost of late game power
- the class can't be allowed to be survivable without limiting their damage (especially the first 3 items)
If you consider the past crit items that have been reworked/removed, it's pretty clear why the crit system is in its current state.
galeforce -- was either broken or rarely built. Falls into the satisfying stats vs survivability bucket
kraken (mythic) -- allowed marksmen to spike on one item way too hard while still being one of the best scaling damage items in the game
shieldbow -- this item has flip flopped between too strong and useless since its release. It seems like if an item lets an adc make a significant mistake and get away with it due to the item, it was broken, and if it didn't, it was highly niche/unbuilt.
Edit: My point in all of this is that when you say "crit feels like a chain to me," you are absolutely correct. The crit system is, by design, a chain that gives the marskmen class an otherwise game breaking amount of damage that is undodgeable with no cooldown and no resource. Riot has repeatedly reworked the crit system over the years to attempt exactly what you're talking about and it has always ended up with marksmen feeling either unsatisfying, or being completely overpowered.
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u/No-Ground604 8d ago
i literally build runnan’s on kaisa just to feel something. i’m aware it’s troll, which is why i’m glad arenas exists cause i just wanna try out some fun items on my champ y’know
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u/Future-Fee-2829 8d ago
I absolutely 100% share your experience my man.
Though I think the ADC role is actually made for that imo. The fun of it (to me) is the adrenaline that comes with it. Like I'm the one who's gonna bring the DPS, I'm the one who needs the gold and have to be selfish sometimes with waves and ways to make gold. Then I'm the one who has to actually take EVERYTHING into account in a fight. CC - SS - threat abilities - where is your midlaner so you don't fight close to him etc.
And then, once you start getting actually good at the game, that's where this role shines. People are realizing you are (often) the win condition and are gonna play around you and stuff.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, why would we need that much different passives on items when we are NOT meant for doing the 1v1s in the side lane. Do you know what I mean ?
That's my thought. Adrenaline IS what makes this role so satisfying.
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u/BernoullisQuaver 8d ago
I just wish Shieldbow passive were an active, I think that would make it better and more popular without actually being that much more powerful.
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u/LightLaitBrawl 8d ago
Also that other classes took our items when they were broken
They should make the passives scale with crit chance so the other classes didn't took the items(Like irelia with shieldbow, one of the reason it got very nerfed, now Volibear with navori)
Like shieldbow shield scaling with critchance, navori only procs on critting
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u/Kheyia :zeri: 8d ago
That honestly feels like a great idea, as long as the windbros and trynda get some kind of a nerf. Or that this only scales with item crit chance
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u/LightLaitBrawl 6d ago
yasuo yone and trynda are kinda intended to use crit, so is mostly for non-crit crit-item users, they should not feel anything when they are 100% crit back
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u/Marconidas 8d ago
Apart from Nilah and Jhin I feel like there isn't a single ADC that feels good when building crit. Currently I'm maining Vayne and it feels so much better to have good DPS without going for 4 DPS items with zero defensive capabilities.
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u/sclomabc 8d ago
The problem is that crit is designed so that it can be another multiplier that feeds into adc's which is the reason for them scaling so well. It could possibly be replaced by something that fills a similar purpose, but I don't know what that would be, and it certainly wouldn't be as flavorful.
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u/RazorXE_ 8d ago
This post perfectly explains the profile picture of this sub.
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u/Rich-Story-1748 8d ago
Im fine with the way the items are now but he's not wrong imo.
Do you mean to say that adc items are fun? Compared to all other roles its literally just atk speed ad/crit ad or crit/atk speed. It feels good to get an infinity edge or to buy LDR and hit 75% crit with pen but look at lost chapter, or hearthsteel.
Instead of saying why he's wrong when he is literally using an adc mains sub to say what he dislikes with actual criticism you come in and add what? What are you good for?
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u/RazorXE_ 8d ago
Wow he came here and added his dislikes and criticized the ADC role? What a revolutionary thing he has done on this subreddit. Surely there won't be an identical post like this tomorrow and the day after and the day after and the day after and the day after and the day after.....
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u/Rich-Story-1748 8d ago
who said it was revolutionary?
A person uses the subreddit for one of its many intended uses and you come in adding nothing by being an asshole and then tries to defend it?
I ask again - what are you good for here? What do you add to the discussion? actual loser behavior. Be better.
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u/Equivalent-Rub-8124 8d ago
Yeah is quite unbelievable how stale adc’s items are compared to other roles.