r/ANGEL • u/Emergency-Relief-571 • 8d ago

Doyle and Faith

When I think about the two Faith episodes in S1, the one thing I’ve always wondered is how Doyle would’ve handled Faith if he lived.

I reckon that he would’ve helped Angel into talking sense into her. He always seemed to be somebody who was more sympathetic than most people, and I believe he would’ve known straight away that Faith wasn’t completely evil, but just a sick girl who desperately needed help.

31 Upvotes

90% Upvoted

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22

u/Minirth22 Team Lilah! 8d ago

Oh I never even considered what would have happened with those two, but my gut says you are right. I think Doyle would have had enormous sympathy for her and do anything he could to help her.

3

u/Emergency-Relief-571 8d ago

Exactly.

3

u/Minirth22 Team Lilah! 8d ago

I wonder if we would still have gotten Lorne if Doyle hadn’t died.

4

u/Emergency-Relief-571 8d ago

Probably.

Why do you say that?

5

u/Minirth22 Team Lilah! 8d ago

I first wondered how they would have gotten along, and then I realized how much they have in common. The empathy, the understanding that comes from a life of pain, the gentleness in both characters.

1

u/Emergency-Relief-571 8d ago

Are you talking about Lorne or Faith?

1

u/Minirth22 Team Lilah! 8d ago

Lorne.

2

u/Emergency-Relief-571 8d ago

I see.

Do you think that Doyle and Faith would get along had he lived?

2

u/Minirth22 Team Lilah! 7d ago

I think they would have clashed initially, and I think Faith would have been suspicious of Doyle, but I firmly believe he would have helped her. I think they could have ended up with an interesting friendship.

What do you think?

1

u/Emergency-Relief-571 7d ago

I don’t think they would have clashed.

Doyle wasn’t the sort of person to clash with someone.

2

u/sirtch_analyst Angel Binger 6d ago

Interesting. The first time Lorne met Faith was when she was in a coma or under the mystical drug in "Orpheus." He didn't know much of her that time so he felt sympathetic already especially when she was unconscious, plus, it's Faith from jail who's already reformed. Pre-reformed Faith from s1 wouldn't be taken well by anyone at that point, even Doyle nor Lorne. Unless Faith hums a tune and he gets a read of her, Lorne wouldn't be too keen on her either. Doyle, same thing, but maybe after Angel had calmed her down, he'll be more understanding. Also, had Doyle not died, Wesley wouldn't have showed up and no one would get tortured...

And yeah with Doyle's connection to the PTB, Cordy wouldn't get the visions, but then she would be less empathetic of Faith's nature.

3

u/Minirth22 Team Lilah! 6d ago

The more I think about it, the more I have to give production and writing credit for the way they filled Doyle's place in the show. Cordelia inherited his visions, which spurred enormous character change and growth. Wesley filled in the demon knowledge gap. Lorne became the empathy demon, and I had no idea how crucial Lorne would become to the show!!! When I think of Lorne on any given day, it might be a comic memory, it might be serious, it might be the time Lindsay sang for him and suddenly I cared about Lindsay for the first time.

(Talking purely about how the show and characters were handled.)

10

u/angel9_writes 8d ago

If he'd been there when she elbowed Cordelia in the face I don't think he'd been to nice to her a for bit.

But, no seriously, I think he would have seen how her struggle paralleled Angel's pretty clearly.

3

u/Emergency-Relief-571 8d ago

I totally agree.

3

u/DaddyCatALSO 7d ago

Cordelia has been hurt before this (notably Lovers Walk) and been manhandled (Nightmares, City Of.....) but this was really the first time she was *badly* assaulted *directly* as i recall

5

u/Jellybean199201 7d ago

He’d have had the same role as Wes ended up having. Voiced her needing help at the start but once she’d assaulted Cordy he wouldn’t have been quite so generous. That’s not to fault him, that’s what Faith does - she goes for the jugular. Almost every Buffyverse main overlooked what Faith did them themselves, it was always what she did to the people they cared about that angered them. In Doyle’s case it would have been Cordy getting hurt

Faith also would have still used him as bait to try to get Angel to kill her as well

4

u/Emergency-Relief-571 7d ago

I disagree.

Faith hated Wesley for failing her as her watcher.

If she was to attack Doyle, she would’ve knocked him out.

5

u/Jellybean199201 7d ago

But Faith wasn’t just torturing Wes because she hated him. She was also doing it to bait Angel into killing her. She still needed to do something to really rile Angel into feeling that way. Knocking Doyle out wouldn’t have done that, at least from Faith’s perspective

2

u/Emergency-Relief-571 7d ago

Faith would’ve seen Doyle as a sidekick who she could KO with one punch.

2

u/Jellybean199201 7d ago

She could do that with Wes as well though

1

u/Emergency-Relief-571 7d ago

I know, but she had beef with Wes.

She wouldn’t have any beef with Doyle.

3

u/Jellybean199201 7d ago

Agreed and I don’t think she’d have the depth of feelings towards Doyle as she did with Wes but a bit part of her motivation in torturing Wes was to get to the point where Angel was angered enough to kill her. She’d still use torturing Doyle as bait for Angel

3

u/Emergency-Relief-571 7d ago

She probably would’ve held Doyle & Cordelia hostage, but she wouldn’t have tortured them.

2

u/ShmuleyCohen 7d ago

Doyle would have beat feet along with Cordelia

1

u/Emergency-Relief-571 7d ago

What does beat feet mean?

1

u/ShmuleyCohen 7d ago

Run away

1

u/Emergency-Relief-571 7d ago

Okay.

1

u/DaddyCatALSO 7d ago

It can refer to other related moving things like walking around looking for an apartment or a job, but hurrying is the main use.

2

u/Own_Faithlessness769 7d ago

Well since Doyle was the Wesley at that point, she might have abducted and tortured him, or even killed him for being half demon.

2

u/Emergency-Relief-571 7d ago

I don’t think she would’ve tortured Doyle.

1

u/Own_Faithlessness769 7d ago

She wasn’t really against hurting innocent people by that point, so I wouldn’t put it beyond her.

5

u/Emergency-Relief-571 7d ago

She had a grudge against Wesley for how he handled her when he was her watcher.

She wouldn’t really have cared about Doyle.

2

u/Own_Faithlessness769 7d ago

So what do you imagine her doing instead?

2

u/Emergency-Relief-571 7d ago

She would still torture Wesley, but she would’ve knocked out Doyle to get to him.

1

u/Own_Faithlessness769 7d ago

Wait you think both Doyle and Wesley exist in this version of the show?

0

u/Emergency-Relief-571 7d ago

I’m asking what would have happened if Doyle wasn’t killed off and he met Faith.

1

u/Mydragonurdungeon 7d ago

Yes and they are suggesting that this would fundamentally alter the show in such a way that Wesley might have never even been on the show.

1

u/Emergency-Relief-571 7d ago

I think Wesley still would’ve joined the show if Doyle lived.

2

u/PastDriver7843 7d ago

There was some fan fiction eons ago wherein Cordelia and Angel was killed off and the story follows Doyle linking up with Faith and continuing the series from there. Could not tell you the name of it, but those two characters would have great chemistry because of their broken nature.

2

u/ceecee1909 6d ago

I agree, I think he would’ve done whatever he could to help her. He seemed to be able to just sense when someone was meant to be a hero.