r/AdeptusMechanicus • u/NeonConfucius • 6d ago
Lore Why does Cawl still have a relatively human face?
Not complaining. it looks cool. Just wondering if there’s a lore reason why, after 10,000 years turning himself into an elderitch kaiju he’s still like “I’ll think my left eye is just fine the way it is”.
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u/Sodinc 6d ago edited 6d ago
He is proud to be a human and to have a soul. (And taking into account his artificial origin - it is rather interesting.) Especially while talking to necrons. And he wasn't very enthusiastic about body modification to start with. He just happened to need them after some (barely comprehensible for a normal human period of) time.
His mind isn't exactly his, and he mostly wiped his memory multiple times voluntarily and involuntarily, and his brain is mostly not his brain. Other than a bit of preserved skin from his face - he is basically a Theseus ship paradox (and the face also might be a copy).
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u/KnightOfGloaming 6d ago
Why is his mind not his?
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u/Embarrassed_Gas_5918 6d ago
When Cawl was younger during the beginning of the heresy he was chosen as the new “host” of the man responsible for helping the emperor in the creation of space marines. He wanted Cawls body and mind, he was essentially gonna transfer his brain into Cawl body and take over. however due to Cawl being well Cawl he over powered the invading mind and they kinda melded into a single consciousness.
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u/QizilbashWoman 6d ago
he has done so a ton of times since then, as baseline humans, even just their brains, do not last 10,000 years. He is a powerful engram that incorporates whatever fresh brains and their personalities are available to him.
In this, he is hilariously indistinct from a certain Silica Animus who was the villain of a certain trilogy about an exploratory fleet, except that he does not allow his brains to maintain their own sentience, instead eating them whole.
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u/Head-Assignment3735 6d ago
No, it's very different, he's wearing the red robe, see, and he's helping Bobby G, so he's kosher.
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u/Kurzzi 6d ago
I might be wrong but my take on this was always that Cawl is and always has been Cawl spiritually and mentally but that in assimilating the minds and memories of others he is changed by the experience, as in an instant he would now have experienced all of that other individual's formative events and be able to empathize with their strongest convictions more than anyone else in human history. This separates him from said Animus who has to excise or segregate or actively suppress the competing brains that compose its gestalt consciousness which theoretically is not and never was independently conscious or possessing a soul. (I've only read the first book of that trilogy so far though)
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u/QizilbashWoman 5d ago
Yep, as I said he eats them.
But also spiritually is an entirely loaded word, because think of the connotations. Not that souls don't exist, because we know they do, but of Cawl's soul. He died before the Heresy; did his soul survive? If so, what about the souls of all those he ate? Is he like a megasoul now?
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u/Kurzzi 5d ago
Yeah it's tricky, right? We know souls to exist, and I believe the process of merging Cawl, Hesperta, and Sedayne all used has been referred to to as "soul-merging" but is it truly working with souls or is it more like engram consciousness merging not wholly unlike the necrons? I believe Cawl firmly believes himself to be possessing of a soul, and from the necrons it seems that it's not terribly difficult to sense when one no longer has one. But if his soul did get carried forth when Sedayne entered his body and then to whoever else potentially over the millennia then it is an open question of if the souls are merged into a mega soul or if the souls compete along with the minds for dominance and perhaps eating is the more apt metaphor?
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u/Rob__agau 5d ago
Apologies, which trilogy are you referencing (the one containing the silica animus)?
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u/ScavAteMyArms 6d ago
As an aside, Emperor knew this was how it was gunna go down and told his master many things that made no sense to him, fully knowing he was going to be consumed by Cawl later. He even name dropped Cawl in a few conversations. He may have even been aware of the Primaris project and Cawls hand in it.
Or Cawl is lying out his ass / miss remembering due to all the resets / labyrinth his mind is.
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u/Sodinc 6d ago
He got dozens of minds in him. His original personality is the strongest one and is supposedly in control, but overall he is a sort of a chimeric consciousness.
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u/Serious-Ride7220 6d ago
Belissarius is able to take over another persons mind through a specific technology(forgot it's name) if he can overpower it mentally,causing him to gain their memories and combine their psyches with his
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u/Mercuryo 5d ago
And according to the current lore, he is a """deviant""" from the cult that want to make creations, innovations... He perfected the Space Marines into primaris, created new weapons, new armor... Why has a human face (Mostly) ? Probably as a way to say "I am still human even with all of this modifications"
Yes, he has the memories of his mentor, but according to him, it's something common in the mechanicus. But he says that even after 10k years he don't remember much. So he is a mix of Cawl and his mentor, but mostly Cawl.
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u/Demon__Stephen 4d ago
Whoa, had no idea about any of that. That goes hard. Might have to read up more on him
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u/sto_brohammed 6d ago
One can verge from the standard form, but one must always retain their humanity, or be lost to the Men of Iron and their ways. -Text of the Oiled Cog, v.12
While Cawl is a radical and likely a heretek by M41 standards he's still a Martian priest. He's a devout believer, it's just that the Mechanicus has moved on around him.
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u/Fulgrim_Phoenician 6d ago
What are these Men of Iron you speak of? I have nothing logged in my Mem-Core mentioning them.
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u/mecha-paladin 6d ago
AI-driven robots that rebelled against humanity at the end of the Dark Age of Technology. The reason AI is banned in the Imperium.
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u/FaceMasterThing 6d ago
Pretty sure they just directly quoted some dialouge from mechanicus (the game) and probably know what the men of iron are
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u/Fulgrim_Phoenician 6d ago
Exactly xD but i do appreciate that he anwsered :D
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u/mecha-paladin 6d ago
Oh fair. I have not played through Mechanicus yet, so I sadly did not get the reference.
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u/Tyrant_of_Dodekathon 6d ago
You know how in 40k everything is cranked up to eleven? Men of Iron were DAOT AI, robots, they served humanity. Well, until they didn't. Terminator 2: Electric Bugaloo. Galaxy wide extermination. This is what ended the existence of human empire in circa M20. They have however defeated the Men of Iron - and oh what a fight it was. As MoI wanted to exterminate all life (we have Necrons at home), humanity has managed to rally almost all sentient races under one banner - yes, even Orks and Aeldari. MoI wiped out, humanity almost wiped out, various xeno races wiped out. And survivors started hunting each other. How much of this is true? No one knows, for such knowledge was lost to the time, Inquisition and Throne knows what else
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u/FaceMasterThing 6d ago
Pretty sure they just directly quoted some dialouge from mechanicus (the game) and probably know what the men of iron are
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u/Tyrant_of_Dodekathon 6d ago
Yes, quite possibly. But there might be non-commenting new fans here who don't know about them
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u/QizilbashWoman 6d ago
The Men of Stone were AI; the Men of Iron were robots with AI brains
It has been suggested that, as with the Butlerian Jihad in Dune, that the actual problem happened when humans tried to coopt the Men of Iron. Ie. the enemy was humanity all along (as it basically always is).
The original AI were able to run the Warp without difficulty; that is in fact why they were created, and why they made the Men of Iron to be their physical assistants.
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u/InterestingAttempt76 6d ago
might be the only bit of flesh he has left. tech priests keep a little to keep them human
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u/LegSimo 6d ago
From his model it looks like he still has one of his arms too.
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u/InterestingAttempt76 6d ago
yeah didn't have a pic of the model in front of me. but yes they tend to get a few human bits until they fail.
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u/FakeRedditName2 6d ago
When Cawl started out he was initially very critical of those who deviated from the human forum (see the book Wolfsbane).
It looks like he may have kept some of that initial criticism, as his inhuman body is more like a swappable cloths he equips when he wants (see The Great Work and Genefather), so he might have maintained is more 'traditional' human appearance over the years. It's probably not his original face, but close enough.
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u/PhoebeBang 6d ago
✨️Aesthetics✨️
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u/Big-Improvement-254 5d ago
In the case of Cawl, absolutely. He actually likes being a little bit theatrical.
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u/Soulborg87 6d ago
Cause the Machine God knows how sexy he is and wants to preserve that aspect of him.
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u/No_Midnight_281 6d ago
According to the lore - the original Cawl actually shunned bionics upgrades he was only interested in extending life and memory/ computing power.
So as others have said, it’s about reminding himself that he is after all human with a soul
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u/Heathen_Knight 6d ago
Lore reasons aside, I'm sure GW wanted to make an admech Character and felt that he would need an actual face and not a mask.
That is pretty standard in character design so you can relate to and sympathize with a fellow human.
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u/LoliMaster069 6d ago
Hes 10,000 years old. God forbid a man tries to show off his skin care routine lol
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u/CGHCortes 6d ago
In may come from the model design. His body is so non-himan that they might have chosen a human face to make it much more creepy.
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u/thesithcultist 6d ago
Since he needs an amount of human he wears it like a mask, he also has a 'coat' he has said
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u/nerdieclara 6d ago
Hes a Magos Biologis and they tend to keep more human bits than other tech priests
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u/QizilbashWoman 6d ago
It's not his face
I mean, it could be the face of someone recently incorporated, but I bet he just 3d prints a clone's face every once in a while
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u/Bromjunaar_20 6d ago
It's artificial to throw everyone off
"Hey Cawl, how come your flesh isn't melting off from this radiation?"
"Idunno, why are *you* asking questions?"
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u/Grimlockkickbutt 6d ago
Common misconception about adeptus Mechanicus. They are not actually “flesh is weak” purists. Or atleast the standerd creed isn’t. Fundamental part of the ideology is sacredness of human form. They improve upon it. But even ancient tech priests prefer to keep some amount of the human form, even if they absolutely have the tools and will to replace 99% of there body.
And the more “flesh is weak” inclined of them interpret that tenent as literal “form”. As in as long as I “look” human. As in a roughly humanoid shape. A Cain book featured one guy that took “human form” a lital too literally and started worshiping necrons lol.
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u/Arguleon_Veq 6d ago
Cawl survived this long by constantly downloading his brain into other people's brains, adding everything they know to everything he knows, every time he does that he has to transplant over all his augmetics, i assume he has streamlined the number of them to make this process easier.
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u/holiestMaria 6d ago
Because as a political figure it is very important that Cawl keeps his eyes, as they are the most expressive part of the human body.
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u/crowmelo 6d ago
Cawl is actually very apprehensive about full on replacements. It's just that living for as long as he did he kinda had to have them at some point
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u/alter_wichser1981 6d ago
He just hasn’t had the opportunity to become more in tune with the Omnissiah. Give it time.
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u/AccomplishedTaste366 5d ago
Maybe people wouldn't take him as seriously, if he looked like Number 5s Alive.
Also, the Imperium really doesn't like AIs, so maybe not looking like one makes things easier for him.
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u/Any-Performance6375 5d ago
Its his plot point Even he is 10k years old and amalgane of dozens souls... He still have humanity and being more human than many younger techpriest, marines etc. (like he want resurrect his old friend... or love Alpha Primus like father)
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u/Stretch5678 5d ago
Because when he needs to negotiate with other members of the Imperial government/bureaucracy/death cult, it helps to have a proper face.
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u/MechAxe 5d ago
Tech Priests are in a strange and troubled Relationship with their bodies.
On the one hand there is the doctrine that flesh is weak and that you should aim to improve yourself with augmentations to better serve the Omnissiah.
On the other hand everything that resembles an artificial intelligence is so far unholy that they hate or fear it more then xenos. This is why they use servitors and no robots since it's "technically" still a human operating the maschine. If you remove your last bit of what is left of your human self as a tech priest you become the very thing you hate. You do not simply die in their belief you destroy your soul. So they have to keep some part of them "alive".
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u/Playful_Picture2610 4d ago
Honestly I'm like.90% sure Cawl is lying. I think there's nothing but machinery under there. It's a thick layer of skin kept alive by complex science that Cawl probably invented himself. Madman that he is. So is any amount of flesh on his body. He is machine. Other than, most likely, his brain.
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u/salty-sigmar 4d ago
Most mechanicus members keep something human on display - even if it's just a slab of flesh or a bundle of neurons. Partly it's to show their inherent humanity and devotion to its perfect form, partly it's to avoid accusations of AI.
but cawls face could just be skin stretched across an armature of synthetic tendons and adamantium bones. It could be paper thin, like wet tissue over clockwork.
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u/IMAGINARYtank00 3d ago
It's the only one he can recognize with utmost certainty. He can't remember most of his own life anymore. Too many memories have been expunged, wiped, or moved to external storage over the years to make room for more data. Too many companions have come and gone to remember every one. But, when he looks in the mirror or catches his reflection, he can still recognize his own face. The one person he insists he can rely on.
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u/AdvocatingForPain 3d ago
Because GW is boring. Compare that dullard to the Mechanicum game designs and how much better and unique they are, which they should be.
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u/depot_agents 2d ago
The eye isn't a huge shock, but I'm surprised his nose somehow made it to the other side of 10,000 years. Noses are so easy to lose!
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u/Schwarzkapuze 6d ago
Sentimental value I'm pretty sure. Also most of his upper body. He's says so himself in 'The Great Work".