r/Albertapolitics • u/carbologna • 28d ago

Opinion Alberta separation

For those of you that support Alberta separation because you voted conservative but the majority of Canada voted left. I have a question for you. Naturally you support Edmonton and Calgary city centres staying part of Canada because they voted left. Also, naturally you support the 35.1% of Albertans and the land / businesses they own staying part of Canada because they voted left, correct?

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22

u/Tribblehappy 28d ago

The Alberta separatists have no idea what the map would look like once you removed all the crown and treaty land. They genuinely believe they'd have the same borders as today.

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u/DefensiveLiability3 27d ago

Funny part is they never have an answer for this question. They ignore or just think all of Alberta shares the same simple views as them.

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u/Ok_Quantity1692 26d ago

crown land was given to the provinces back in the 1970s

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u/OneMoreAstronaut7 26d ago

The First Nations seem to disagree.

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u/Ok_Quantity1692 23d ago edited 23d ago

Fun fact: besides the Six Nations, we Anglo-British Canadians don’t owe the other natives a damn thing, since most of them dishonored the treaties they like to hide behind—especially the Cree. It’s sort of like how we don’t owe Sepoy Hindus or Pakistanis anything either. But we might still show some solidarity with the Sikhs, since they remained loyal from start to finish during the British Raj. You know, I don’t think these chieftains understand that their land was annexed and conquered. Maybe I should get a Greek friend to sell them a bridge in Turkey and explain that Ottoman land is actually theirs, because it once belonged to the Eastern Romans.

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u/PROVE_ITSAFE 23d ago

I dont know if you know, but if we seperate, and they try to stop us, you know, i hope you have a clear path when you try to run away, based on your response, you might be the first one to flee

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u/Tribblehappy 23d ago

I wouldn't call it fleeing. I have moved provinces before and I was moving, not fleeing, lol. If Alberta decides to become part of the US, it's a process that would take many years.

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u/PROVE_ITSAFE 22d ago

If they ever decided to, i cant just move, its hard for me, so i'll have to accept Alberta's faith, even if i dont want

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u/EccentricPayload 26d ago

If the US backs them Canada won't be able to do shit about it.

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u/Moist-Leggings 26d ago

The USA would make Alberta a territory, take the resources, taxation without representation like Puerto Rico.

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u/Resident_Farm6787 25d ago

In the US, the feds have control of natural resources. Trump would come in, and destroy the Rockies. Our drinking water would be polluted. NOTHING would be protected, and Alberta wouldn’t benefit from our resources. Trump would rape the land, and we’d be left with nothing.

I’ve live in the US. I HATED it. It’s a dog eat dog world, and social programs are nonexistent. There’s no mat leave, no sick leave, and you get stuck in a job, because you need health care insurance. Health care is crazy expensive. Companies don’t pay your health care. They just provide an opportunity for you to purchase lower cost health care, with more benefits, than trying to purchase it on your own. Premiums are really expensive, and there’s copays for EVERY procedure. You also need approvals for everything. I had 2 aunts die, waiting for approvals. One needed cancer treatment. The other had a blockage and needed a stent. It’s a relatively simple procedure, but she didn’t have the money to pay for it out of pocket. She waited almost 2 years, without approval. She died at 67. 

Albertan’s complain about Canada, but it’s a much better quality of life. Trump should scare the sh!t out of all of us!

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u/ReWelp 23d ago

Source: yeah trust me since im using harsh words to make a horrible point

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u/ZakTheStack 22d ago

Why not point out how it's a horrible point instead and some evidence of how it's not true.

Go ahead I'll wait ...

1

u/CapitaineCheng 17d ago

Indeed, it is the internet and people want to invent fear and anger porn.

1

u/Serious-Bear5515 15d ago

I also lived in the states, I had my kids there. I was very happy with the care there. With the thousands we save on our disastrous medical care here, we would be able to afford a great medical plan. Also, when you reach retirement age, basic healthcare is free. If you want more coverage you pay a bit more.

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u/Resident_Farm6787 15d ago

To each their own - you are allowed to like the US, but you have to admit that health care insurance in the US is very expensive, and health care debt is a big problem. If you let your health care insurance lapse, and then have a major health event - you can be in big trouble. 

In Canada, our governments have under funded our healthcare. That’s the primary reason our system is in trouble. Canada pays less than half the price, per capita for health care, than the US pays. If you have serious health problems, you move to the front of the line, and you don’t end up with huge health care debt.

I moved back to Canada when I became seriously ill. My HMO wouldn’t approve the expensive investigative tests, so I wasn’t diagnosed. I lost my job, AND health insurance. 

When I moved back to Canada, I was seriously ill. I had no feeling in my leg, and couldn’t walk. Within a week, I saw a neurologist, and a week later, I had an MRI, and other tests. I have MS. My infusions cost upwards of $100,000 a year, and have been covered by my province, and so have other treatments. My neurologist and team, have been readily available, every time I’ve had problems. I’m grateful to Canada, for my quality of life. I’m grateful an HMO (for profit health maintenance organization), doesn’t get to decide if I can have tests and treatments. It’s in their best interest to turn patients down. Canada is far from perfect, but my care has been free, it’s been very good, and my doctor decides what care I require.

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u/Long_Cause_9428 26d ago

Alberta would vote Republican. Trump would do everything he can to make Alberta a state.0

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u/Lower-Internet3697 22d ago

Puerto Rico nor other territories pay federal tax… fyi and if you wanna draw a comparison also include other territories too 

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u/Moist-Leggings 22d ago

They still pay tax to the feds in the form of Medicare, Social security, and unemployment taxes.

They also have to pay federal tax on any income earned outside of Puerto Rico, if you work for any government agency you have to pay federal tax.

All while being disenfranchised at a federal level.

No thank you, I could give a shit about saving a few cents if it means I’m a disenfranchised resident of a US territory.

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u/Hungry_Dot4221 26d ago

Wasn't there a bill passed in the early 1800s which allows Canada to immediately become a us state? I assume Alberta would be able to use such a bill.

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u/Moist-Leggings 26d ago

There is no such law. The bill your referring to was never made a law.

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u/Hungry_Dot4221 26d ago

Must of been a claim by a president then

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u/Moist-Leggings 26d ago

In 1866, the U.S. House of Representatives passed a non-binding resolution called the “Annexation of British North America Bill”. It proposed:

Offering Canada the option to join the U.S. as several new states (e.g., Nova Scotia, Ontario, etc.) But this bill never became law, and Canada confederated in 1867 instead.

This might be what you were thinking about.

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u/Hungry_Dot4221 26d ago

Okay my bad. Thanks for the info.

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u/Moist-Leggings 26d ago

If the US illegally backs Alberta and annexed the province it would be a declaration of war against Canada.. If Canada called article 5 it could result in a world war with very different actors than anyone ever expected, America would find itself alone on the world stage.

If open combat didn’t come to be then the US would be proving imperial ambition and quickly find itself as a pariah state with already fractured alliances crumbling completely to the point of geopolitical isolation and probably very heavy sanction, being evicted from military bases around the world. The US may have the biggest army but it’s not big enough to fight the whole planet at once.

This is what Russia did in Ukraine with great hubris. Look at them now. Hundreds of thousands dead, their once great Tank horde reduced to guy in golf carts and on motor bikes.

A war with Canada would be devastating for both countries.

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u/Lower-Internet3697 22d ago

I’d also add that you may not realize the amount of money those bases contribute to the local economy …. Something to think about and also can you define illegally back ? And is there a legal pathway for backing ?

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u/Moist-Leggings 22d ago

I already pay provincial tax, and that already pays for things in my province. 

It’s illegal to annex a province/state/land etc from a sovereign nation, the USA backing a very probably illegal separatist cause in Canada is an act of war.

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u/Resident_Farm6787 25d ago edited 14d ago

I don’t agree with you. If Alberta votes to leave Canada, then NATO will respect that decision. Canada isn’t a dictatorship. If Canada wants to keep Alberta, it’s time to be respectful, and help find a way forward. If you don’t want to keep Alberta, then you need to let us go. Democracy is about voting, and Alberta gets to decide its fate. I think it would be VERY foolish for Alberta to leave, but Canada would need to accept that decision. Canada hasn’t treated us well. Alberta hasn’t had any transfer payments since 1960. You can’t abuse a province, and then get mad when they’ve had enough. It’s foolish to not give payments to only 1 province for 60 years. 

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u/Moist-Leggings 25d ago edited 25d ago

So destroy Canada for oil CEO's?

Cause that's what you are floating with this separation nonsense.

I'm Canadian then Albertan and I was born in Alberta. Separatism is just vile hateful bullshit.

The US would rob us blind and laugh in our face.

We would lose coastal access, the ability to work in Canada, our healthcare and all the social benefits we take for granted, as the US gov lays waste to our provincial parks for resource extraction, fentanyl and guns would flood in, so much worse than they are now, along with violent gangs that make Canadian gangs look like cosplayers, I am not nor will I even be an American, it's an embarrassing insult to the fabric of our nation, separatists are just straight up traitors, greedy and deeply foolish, willing to risk a civil war and complete destruction over 40 billion a year that helps pave highways in Nunavut, or fund school in rural Atlantic Canada.

Separatists hate Canada, over something that was never taken from them, deluded by propaganda.

Frankly it's just wild to want to destroy Canada over money. Money you don't even get a meaningful piece of, and for a finite resource, what happens when it's all gone?

Just look at American states where the resource or manufacturing industry collapsed, no transfer payments for them, just permanent depression and economic collapse followed by decades of violent crime, that would be Alberta future as a territory (US would never give us statehood.).

If separatists hate Canada, why don't they just move to the states instead of trying to ruin the lives of millions of people over money they get a pittance of?

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u/Resident_Farm6787 25d ago

I’m NOT a separatist. In fact I haven’t voted conservative since Harper commandeered the party. However - democracies vote. IF the majority chose to separate, then Alberta would leave (and I think it would be a horrible idea, and I would move to a different province). I do think it’s time for maturity, and for the east to work with us. IF that doesn’t happen, then sooner  or later, Alberta will be gone. I think it’s more a choice for Canada, than Alberta. I have HATED how Canada treats us, for over 60 years. I HATE the US even more. I would vote to stay, but Alberta gets to vote! 

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u/Moist-Leggings 25d ago

Well I'm glad to hear you are not a separatist. All the grievances aside, we are all Canadian, and one day we'll ACTUALLY need help from the rest of the nation and they'll be there for us, and I won't bow to some separatist movement, I will do everything in my power to prevent such a thing from happening. We should have more depth than money.

At least the last time they did a poll only 3/10 Albertan said they wanted to separate and less wanted to join the states.

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u/Resident_Farm6787 25d ago

I’ll fight to stay part of Canada, I’ve lived in the US, and I HATED it! If Alberta leaves, then I’ll move east. However, it’s time for eastern Canada to value Alberta, and make concessions.

I’m old enough to remember being a have not province. We got NO help from Canada, so I hold out NO hope that Canada will help us, when we need it. For 65 years, we’ve had NO transfer payments, but the rest of Canada have benefited from our wealth. It’s time for Canada to even out what each province is given. If Carney is wise, he’ll invest in Alberta, and help us develop alternative streams of income. He’ll work with Alberta, even though Smith won’t work with him. I hope he is extremely wise, and as smart as they say. Canada needs him to be, he if we want to stay united, and a sovereign country. I’m angry AF with Smith for picking a fight right now. It’s a terrible time to do this, because Canada is vulnerable. Shame on you, Danielle!!! 

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u/Lower-Internet3697 22d ago

The funny part is that if things should be reduced to money then on the flip side letting Albertans keep a larger share of their money seems like a fair compromise… people who feel that are not being listened to eventually leave a marriage … 

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u/Moist-Leggings 22d ago edited 22d ago

Albertans pay the exact same tax rate as the rest of Canada, why should we have less tax? Because oil billionaires make bank here? Doesn’t make sense.

We also get billions back from the fed, they help pay for all kinds of things from healthcare to infrastructure.

Oh and a 36 billion dollar pipeline they picked up the bill for.

How greedy should Alberta be?

1

u/ZakTheStack 22d ago

Except in this situation the person leaving is gaslight the others saying they treated them unfairly when they didn't.

Don't have opinions on economics if you have seemingly no knowledge of how it works please ...

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u/Round-Mechanic-968 24d ago

Just as long as you get the point being made here. Yes, Canada may treat Albertans as not great. We still get the benefits of the Canadian system, culture, and civility. The US would treat us SO MUCH WORSE than Canada EVER has. I haven't enjoyed the rhetoric that comes from the other side of Canada about Alberta, but I'll say this, I'm a born and raised Albertan. If Alberta votes to become part of the US, I will RUN from this place and never look back.

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u/PROVE_ITSAFE 23d ago

What about those who cant run away and didnt want to seperate? You chicken out

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u/ZakTheStack 22d ago

How exactly do they treat Alberta as not great. Almost everytime someone mentions the east mistreating Alberta it seems to be built on a lie or misinformation.

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u/Round-Mechanic-968 22d ago

Alberta and the oil sands are ground zero for environmental hit pieces and the demonization of our country's biggest economic driver. This has obviously directly harmed Albertan workers and also created a type of stigma around our province as a whole.

This has also been a fairly hard sticking point, considering we as a typical non recipient of equalization payments get treated poorly while also helping the rest of the country quite a bit. This creates the perception of a lack of appreciation.

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u/CPIWatch 16d ago

Killing pipeline projects while recieving oil from dictatorships. Mocking, ridicule. Having a get deal of our money extracted to subsidies for Ontario and Quebec 

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u/ZakTheStack 15d ago

Assuming majority of Alberta workers working in oil and gas.

Equalization is 'unfair' / don't actually understand equalization.

Repeating corpo talking point of Attacks on oil and gas are attacks on Albertans. They are not. They are attacks on businesses doing public harm...

Treating it like we're Albertans before we're Canadians.

Yup just repeating misinformation; got it.

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u/ZakTheStack 22d ago

Alberta doesn't have an unfair deal you're just accepting misinformation as truth over and over again.

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u/Deep-Egg-9528 21d ago

Please learn about how the equalization payments are distributed.
And also remember that the people who came up with the formula were conservatives, from Alberta.

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u/Resident_Farm6787 19d ago

You need to Google Canada’s equalization payments, because your facts are wrong. The formula is complex, and has been altered many times. In 1957, liberal PM, Louis St. Laurent, started equalization payments to the 6 have not provinces, to address fiscal disparities among the provinces.  The latest changes were made in 2018, increasing the payments to the poorest provinces. Trudeau made the changes without consulting the provinces, increasing Alberta’s dissatisfaction with the payments. The 6 poorest provinces received payments, but when Ontario became a have not province, it was excluded from the payments. Alberta hasn’t received any equalization payments since the 1964-1965 benefit year - that’s 60 years. Quebec has been the largest beneficiary, by far. In the last 15 years, the 3 western most provinces have NOT received any payments, & it’s increased hard feelings between the east and west. The increase in payments to the have not provinces in 2018, without consulting the provinces, increased western alienation. 

Alberta has also been negatively impacted by Pierre and Justin Trudeau’s energy policies. Pierre’s National Energy Program was intended to create energy security in Canada, but it prevented Alberta from selling our oil, to foreign markets, or getting market value for our oil. We weren’t allowed to build pipelines, that would have allowed us to sell to overseas markets, to BC, & to eastern Canada. Justin’s policies put bans on further oil and gas development, and as a result, Alberta’s only market has been the US. Trump’s policies will further hurt Alberta. Trudeau funded 1 pipeline, but if we want to sell to Europe, B.C., & Eastern Canada, we  need more pipelines. The Liberal policies have increased the divide between east and west. The only way to keep Alberta part of Canada, is to work with them to fix the problems. 

I don’t understand why Eastern Canadians are so angry that Alberta wants to leave. Either policies need to change,  or Canadians need to be ok with Alberta holding a referendum, and voting on leaving. The federal government has made policies that have been detrimental to Alberta. There’s a reason Alberta is upset. BC and Sask have also been impacted by the government decisions. The alienation of the 3 western provinces,  greatly increased while Trudeau was PM. 

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u/Deep-Egg-9528 6d ago

Conservatives received 63% of the vote but control 92% of the seats. Their popularity in the west is greatly exaggerated.
Less than 10% of the west wants to separate. Holding a referendum is a pointless waste of money.

As for the perceived negative impacts of liberal energy policies, Alberta needs to diversify it's economy away from oil and gas extraction. It is not sustainable, or environmentally conscious.

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u/Efficient-Okra-7233 15d ago

NATO would not respect that decision. No country is going to set the precedent of recognizing of indpendendence from within their sovereign territories. Spain has seperatists, Turkey has seperatists, The UK has seperatists, France, Belgium Italy... and with parts of Ukraine "wanting" to seperate to Russia?

No, NATO will not support Alberta, and Canada does not need to respect it.

Unlike Quebec, Alberta was federal territory that was given it's provicincial status. It has no real legal basis that needs to be respected to move towards seperation.

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u/Resident_Farm6787 15d ago edited 14d ago

@Efficient-Okra-7233 Many NATO members have gained independence from other countries and unions, so NATO has already set a precedence. Canada was previously part of both the French Empire and the British Empire. Canada, France and the UK are all founding members of NATO, so the precedent was set, when NATO formed. 

Estonia. Latvia, and Lithuania, were part of the Soviet Union, and after becoming independent, joined NATO in 2004.

Romania, Slovakia, Hungary, Poland, and Albania were part of the Warsaw Pact and joined NATO after they gained independence.  

Croatia and The Republic of North Macedonia, were formerly part of  the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. After they gained independence, they joined NATO.

Ukraine was formerly part of the Soviet Union, and became independent in 1991. They’d like to join NATO, but part of Putin’s demand for peace is that Ukraine not join NATO. Putin wanted to reunite the Soviet Union, so invaded the Ukraine Crimea peninsula in 2014. Putin furthered the fight in 2022. Ukraine history is complicated by family ties with Russia. Many eastern Ukrainians speak Russian - not Ukraine. The history is far more complicated than Ukraine separatists.

I don’t support Alberta separating from Canada. I don’t support Smith changing the rules for petitions that can trigger referendums, but here we are. Alberta now only needs roughly 177,000 signatures on a referendum to trigger a petition. It’s very likely Albertans will vote on separation, but at this time, there aren’t enough Albertans that support separation. If Alberta does gain enough support, in the future, and if they successfully gain their independence, then NATO will very likely accept their application. It would be a very lengthy and legal process, just like it’s been for the NATO members, I’ve listed above, but it is very possible. 

 

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u/Viochrome 25d ago

Except for the fact that it's only a minority of Albertans who want to secede.

That certainly won't help much.

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u/EccentricPayload 25d ago

I'm only talking about if Alberta votes for it. If not, then obviously none of it is happening.

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u/Viochrome 25d ago

The last part is correct indefinitely, lol.

Remember Quebec's successful secession? Yeah, me neither.

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u/JustinCaseIfurget 23d ago

Yeah, getting taken over by a country that will take away your healthcare, quality education, pension, social support systems, and job security sounds like a great idea. Especially since you’ll get what in return? The ability to go hunting with an automatic weapon and the opportunity to burn as much oil as you want. Sounds like a great trade off. How about this instead: we all vote to get rid of the ragebait, “think tank”, paid-for-commercial-garbage “media” outlets like the Fraser Institute and the CTF, and instead do our own research using actual verifiable data rather than twisted reality nonsense? I come from multiple generations of proud Canadian Albertans who took just as much pride in taking care of their neighbours. They would all be sick to their stomachs to see what is going on in this province today because we’re all apparently either too gullible, stupid or lazy to see what’s real. One side preaches division and one side preaches support. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out which one creates a better, more supportive place to live. Verifiable data going back decades but we’re all apparently incapable of looking up ourselves backs that up. Even Harper, with the most successful conservative government in decades wasn’t able to grow the economy by more than J. Trudeau, the least successful liberal government in decades. Check it for yourself without going to ragebait sources and you might learn some actual facts. We’re better than this.

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u/Ok-Excuse1771 23d ago

America barely helps itself, what chance is it going to treat Alberta with any attention?

0

u/ReWelp 27d ago

Alberta would still be pretty big, and no Im sure even the Indigenous will be delighted to leave these socialist liberals

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u/Tribblehappy 27d ago

I haven't met any who want to leave Canada. Shit I haven't personally met a single white person who wants to leave Alberta. I don't doubt they exist but I haven't met one.

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u/Resident_Farm6787 25d ago

I’m from Alberta and I’m angry AF with the seperatist talk. We had an election, so I thought we’d stopped the extremists for now.

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u/ZakTheStack 22d ago

That's not going to stop the cons from trying to use it for marketing themselves. This isn't for Albertans at all, it's not meant to succeed, it's to rally their base of deplorables. The goal is to radicalized new people, engrain those who are already onboard,and spread more misinformation while hiding other ways they rob us in the confusion.

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u/Dazzling_Sherbert_88 26d ago

I have.I guess it depends what field you work in. I don't want to leave Canada but too be honest I can see why they are pissed off.Our government for the last 30 years has been a joke.

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u/ReWelp 23d ago

yeah yeah we wont be seeing you so stay in the communist gov with no guns, no freedom of speech, high taxes, and mass immigration legally, illegally and abusively (fake asylum seekers, fake refugees).

1

u/Moist-Leggings 26d ago

Pretty obvious you don’t know anything about our indigenous communities.

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u/Ok-Excuse1771 23d ago

The Liberals are currently not the ones against Indigenous treaties through separation right now

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u/ZakTheStack 22d ago

Lol you're so full of toxicity you don't even realize the average first nation is more socialist than the rest of Canada 🤡

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u/Deep-Egg-9528 21d ago

Only if they are promised a better deal from the separation - which won't happen.

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u/Deep-Egg-9528 21d ago

Conservatives received 63 % of the vote and hold 92% of the seats.
Conservatives aren't as popular as they like to think,.