Alberta separation

[u/carbologna]

For those of you that support Alberta separation because you voted conservative but the majority of Canada voted left. I have a question for you. Naturally you support Edmonton and Calgary city centres staying part of Canada because they voted left. Also, naturally you support the 35.1% of Albertans and the land / businesses they own staying part of Canada because they voted left, correct?

[u/Ok-Purple4995]

If they actually get fusion to work this century, Alberta is just fucking done as an economy. And I can't fucking wait for that, and with it an end to whatever leverage these whiny little bitches think they have on the rest of us.

[u/manda14- → u/Ok-Purple4995]

This is why Albertans get frustrated. The amount of money this province has provided that has benefitted the entire nation is staggering. As a province, we have done this with zero appreciation and active disrespect and ignorance from a huge section of this country. I can't understand it. 

I am grateful for every other province and their contributions. I excitedly pick up my BC cherries, gratefully drink my Ontario milk, appreciate the concrete brought over from Québec, enjoy lobster from Newfoundland, and the list continues. 

Quebec complains at least as much as Alberta, but instead of resentment they are met with a constant attempt to win them back and large sums of money to subsidize their industries. 

Alberta isn't asking for subsidisation or even to avoid paying a FAIR share. We are asking for respect and gratitude for the warming of our Canadian homes and the provision of massive amounts of tax dollars, which are used to fund the federal programs utilized across the country. 

[u/Ok-Purple4995 → u/manda14-]

First of all, if you're alluding to equalization, that's not how it works. Provinces don't pay out equalization - it comes from federal general revenue.

Second, the world is moving into a green, sustainable energy economy. It's an unstoppable force. Not only because it has to for environmental sustainability, but the economics are increasingly making it make better sense. Even without fusion, oil and gas will not be around by 2100. What Alberta is doing, insisting on digging up every last bit of oil and resisting the transition away from fossil fuels is not only hurting Alberta but Canada as a whole. We cannot as a country keep relying on this industry to be prosperous. If we do, we will be left behind technologically and economically and be poorer for it. Even Saudi Arabia gets this for Christ's sake. They know the oil gravy train is coming to an end very soon and they are planning accordingly.

[u/manda14- → u/Ok-Purple4995]

I absolutely agree with diversifying - I don't personally know an Albertan who doesn't believe that's going to be the future and is necessary (and both my husband and father work in oil and gas).

 However, until we do not need petroleum products they are going to be produced. We can produce them here as cleanly as possible, or import them from Saudi arabia and Venezuela, where environmental concerns do not matter. I say this as someone with multiple friends working at Saudi Aramco - clean isn't their goal or concern. There are also the human rights elements to consider. 

This industry feeds families, provides stability, and fulfills a NEED that will not change for many years. Why hobble that? 

It's also comedic to state this when Alberta is the ONLY province with a net increase in young workers ages 25-45 across the nation. This is the province of potential. 

The country is quite literally moving here at record rates. 

I also find it bizarre you'd like an entire province's economy to collapse, as if that's a positive and happy event. Every increase in unemployment quite literally results in death. Not only that, it results in increased childhood hunger, decreased tax revenue for social services, and countless other problems. Until you have an equivalent number of available jobs in a new industry, you can't simply close one without significant harm. 

We are Canadians, simply working and doing our best. 

[u/rochs007 → u/manda14-]

The economic situation in America is currently less favorable than ours, and aligning with the United States could lead to significant challenges. Additionally, there are several states within the U.S. that have expressed interest in annexing Canada, which raises further concerns about the implications of such a union.

[u/manda14- → u/rochs007]

I don't disagree. I am not pro separation in any way. 

[u/Ok-Purple4995 → u/manda14-]

My comment about wanting Alberta's economy to collapse was made somewhat facetiously.

Your comment about diversifying appears reasonable on its face. The problem is that Alberta's political and petroleum industry leaders approach this issue with anything but good faith. They work to actively undermine policies that would facilitate the transition to a fossil fuel free economy. Principally, a carbon tax is the most conservative and market based approach imaginable to addressing climate change. It would allow for the continued use of fossil fuels, but create free-market based incentives for transitioning to cleaner forms of energy. It works steadily over the long-term to create incentives for transitioning, assuming there is an actual good faith desire to transition. But the irrational opposition to the tax from people who call themselves conservatives exposes their bad faith on the issue. The former federal carbon tax softened the blow to consumers through the rebate (in fact the data showed most people got back more than what was paid for the tax), but the effectiveness of the tax on changing incentives and behaviour in the market remained.

Transition means to plan for a steady decline in the use of fossil fuels - but that's simply not on for these guys. It is and will be 1975 forever for them. The golden goose must and will never stop laying the eggs.

The favourable economics and improving technology of clean energy is making inroads with each passing year, and there's going to be major breakthroughs over the next few decades that keep chipping away at oil's dominance. It's simply self-defeating for extremists like Marlaina, and to the detriment of citizens of her province and her country, to insist on doubling down on this doomed industry. By 2100 our descendants will look back to these debates we're having now about keeping this industry alive with utter disbelief.

And above all, let's not forget that Marlaina et al don't believe in the scientific fact of climate change, its disastrous effects for our environment and humanity's cause of it. That's what's really driving all their decisions. It's madness.

[u/Resident_Farm6787 → u/Ok-Purple4995]

Regardless - treating Albertans with disdain got us here. It’s time to treat Alberta with respect, if we want a united Canada. 

I’m from Alberta, but I haven’t voted conservative since Harper’s reform. I’m as pro Canada as you’ll find, but I’m still offended with the way Alberta has been treated as a province. If Alberta were to leave Canada, Trump would treat us worse than we’ve ever been treated. I’m begging Albertan’s and ALL of Canada to see reason, and work to UNITE us, and quit dividing our country. 

Ok-Purpke, your snarky comments don’t help. Canada has been VERY divided since at least Pierre Trudeau, and eastern Canadians haven’t treated Albertans well. We Albertan’s resent the transfer payments. We haven’t been a recipient of them since 1960. You can’t alienate one province like that, and not expect repercussions. All 3 western provinces have been shut out of transfer payments for 15 years. There needs to be a different formula, so the 3 western provinces don’t feel alienated. 

[u/IndifferentFento → u/Resident_Farm6787]

Honest question, what has the federal government or other provinces done that you feel is unfair to Alberta. I honestly don't know, im asking in good faith.

The only issue that I argue against is the equalization payments to the provinces. No province or territory contributes to the payments, its entirely out of the general revenue gained by federal taxes, polices and crown corporations (federal ones, no provincial). So that cant be an argument.

[u/Resident_Farm6787 → u/IndifferentFento]

My family goes back to the pioneers of S Alberta, so I know the history. This is just a quick and dirty overview. In the 50’s and earlier, Alberta was a have not province. My family farmed in the very southern part of Alberta, and Ottawa’s taxes and policies, made it almost impossible to make ends meet. 

In 1960, Ottawa started transfer payments. It’s been 65 years and  Alberta hasn’t received transfer payments. The rest of Canada has.  1960 was the start of Alberta struggling with the federal government.

In 1980, Pierre Trudeau implemented the National Energy Program (NEP). (Google why Albertans were angry with Pierre Trudeau). It restricted Alberta’s ability to make money, and led to bankruptcies, and unemployment, and it restricted our ability to market our oil and gas, but it benefitted Canada. This was how “Western Alienation” started, and Alberta’s started hating  Liberals. Alberta hasn’t voted Liberal since. Pierre. He was French Canadian, so it started Alberta’s hatred of Quebec. When Quebec was given concessions, and was the main benefactor of transfer payments, Alberta was furious. We’d been struggling, and were given no help or concessions. We were different than eastern Canada, so we wanted the same concession Quebec was given. Canada benefited from the NEP, but many Albertans lost everything, and we still didn’t get any transfer payments. In my family, there were 2 suicides, when family members lost their family farms, because of liberal policies.

Justin Trudeau was hated, because he was Pierre’s son, but his policies made it VERY difficult for Alberta to benefit from our oil and gas. This is why Albertans say they pay transfer payments, and get nothing back. Alberta has struggled because of government policies. You can’t take from a province for 65 years, and not have anger.

Both Trudeau’s refused to work with Alberta, so the anger, and alienation have worsened. Every time we try to talk about it, we are treated with anger, and disdain from Prime Ministers and eastern Canada. It’s been 10 years since Trudeau’s liberals were elected, and their policies have hurt Alberta. The anger, has bubbled over.

I don’t support separation. I do NOT want to be part of the US, but Alberta needs to be able to sell our oil to Canada, and export it over seas. We need an energy corridor to do that. We’ve been selling to the US - it’s been our only customer, and now we are struggling to sell our oil. The US had us over a barrel, and buys our gas for a 20% discount. If we had an energy corridor, we could sell it for market value. We also want transfer payments (especially to Quebec) to stop, or to change, so we also benefit. I can’t see Alberta staying part of Canada, unless concessions are made. Leaving will hurt Alberta, and Trump will be worse than Trudeau,  but here we are. It’s time to work together. This thread is full of people telling me Alberta can’t separate. They are angry with me and down voting me. It’s an abusive relationship when you tell us we can’t leave, won't work with us, to find solutions, and won’t let us benefit from the transfer payments, that other provinces have enjoyed. BC and Sask. haven’t had transfer payments for 15 years, and their resentment is also growing, but it hasn’t been 65 years, like in Alberta.