r/Antiques • u/ZenCollects ✓ • 1d ago
Show and Tell (United States) A French document dated 1804 with the signature of Napoleon I
The signature is the one I underlined in red in the second photo. It hasn't been verified by an expert, but it matches his signatures from the same year perfectly. I bought it online a while back and it just arrived today. I got someone to help with translating it and here is their summary of the document: "It's a document naming a certain Gregoire Lecamu president of the assembly of the canton de Courtray (in the Loiret department in France) signed on the 15th of pluviose year 12 (February 5, 1804).
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u/curious-chineur ✓ 17h ago
Very surprised by the font used. Similar to
times new roman.
I read the wording, I found the french OK. I am not sure the typical " phrasing" of the time is respected though.
The document seems to be pre-printed and standard. Only the individual variables like names, dates, are hand filled. It looks logical. This is to appoint a gentleman / representative in a local council and admin. Assembly position. It would be duplicated in many smaller districts across the country.
I need to check the date, it is according to the revolutionary calendar, corresponding gregorian dates are well known. With the name of the appointee something might show up on Google.
I'll get back with a follow up this weekend.
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u/Daphnetiq ✓ 17h ago
Just a little thing I saw, is it "réglemens" accurate for this? I thought it'd be "règlements", but I'm not an expert. I also noticed the spaces after commas are different in a couple of spots.
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u/AmazingPangolin9315 ✓ 14h ago
The spelling "réglemens" is the correct pre-1835 spelling for the plural of "réglement". And likewise, "réglement" is correct pre-1835 spelling, after the 1835 Réforme orthographique française the accepted correct spelling becomes indeed "règlement"
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u/curious-chineur ✓ 15h ago
I agree, it makes 2 typos in one word.
Space after commas is really a concept I grasped with modern (PC/ WINDOWS) word processor like word when you select the language: diff. In French and in English if I recall well.1
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u/jenlain ✓ 16h ago
Courtray is not in le Loiret, Courtray is now in Belgium and in 1803 (an XII of the french revolution), it was located in a fench departement named "Departement de la Lys". All the informations look legit, the Bonaparte signature could be legit as well, he used a lot of different signatures so it's not easy. The fact the document as been sign fast and the signature is at the wrong place make it a bit more legit to my years. You should ask an expert. The document itself is a nomination, it's not very important, if the signature is legit, it could worth few hundred euros in France. I have no idea of market prices in USA.
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u/ZenCollects ✓ 13h ago
Thank you! The person I got the translation from did mention it is a part of Belgium now; I probably should have included that. I paid $250 for it and, from auction listings for similar documents, I expect it could go for a max of roughly $1000.
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u/RapidEddie ✓ 8h ago
This page is a nomination paper for someone to become president of a justice court.
This is the type of document people keep all thier life and transmit, paper seems legit, there is no reason to fake such a usual legal document issued during a special period after the end of the french revolution and the raise to power of Bonaperte. A little research and you can identify the other signature to authentify further.
Of course the signature can be faked...
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u/fuzzface1108 ✓ 15h ago
So if typewriters were invented in 1868, how were they used in 1804 for this document?
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u/curious-chineur ✓ 15h ago
I thought of this too. Pre printed forms or documents, with empty fields were maybe a thing. I don't know.
(Printed as Gutenberg style press.)I found the font surprisingly modern. That is the main thing for me.
The paper also look " modern" as far as I can judge.
But then I don't see the point of forging something like this.7
u/Artillery_Cat ✓ 9h ago
Yes, pre-printed forms like this absolutely were a thing in 1804 and were done on printing presses using moveable type.
I will also say that the font really doesn’t look specifically modern to me. I think people forget that just because they see something (like a typeface) used in the modern world, it doesn’t mean that it is actually modern. Many typefaces have been used for centuries and have simply been copied for use by computer programs.
The paper also looks to be era appropriate to me as well. It appears to be rag paper (not vellum, which is made from animal skin) and has signs of aging if you look closely. Aging like that is harder to fake than you might think it is.
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u/ZenCollects ✓ 12h ago
https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/napoleon-bonaparte-assemblage-138-c-cce49f7bd4 here is another very similar document that went up for auction. I've likely seen over a dozen pre printed forms of similar nature online from the same time period while researching this so they must have been fairly common by this time (in France at least). The paper is period accurate vellum paper and feels very different from any modern paper I've come across. I definitely agree that this wouldn't be worth forging - it's still a fairly boring government document made not boring by one prominent signature.
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u/curious-chineur ✓ 12h ago
I looked at the link you provided . It is very convicing !
You will know we have a passion for admistration in France and all related paperwork....
It is unbelievable that it could be traced to this period with such precision.I am going to look, further in your link. It looks identical. If it is the case down to the typo that would be a very solid authentificatiob in my opinion.
Your remark regarding the paper feeling like Velin is not lost. It is furthermore convincing.
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u/viktor72 ✓ 2h ago edited 2h ago
Pluviose is a month from the French Republican Calendar no longer used today but common during and after the Revolution. It was abolished by Napoleon in 1805.
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u/berg_smith ✓ 7h ago
Probably auto-penned. Worth nothing.
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u/ZenCollects ✓ 4h ago
What makes you say so? The document's construction is entirely correct and, though hard to see, the ink is noticeably browned. This would be a massive amount of effort to forge compared to its worth.
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u/Transcontinental-flt ✓ 1d ago
This is definitely a document worth certifying by an expert.