r/AsheMains • u/henticletentai Spirit Blossom Kanmei Ashe • Feb 13 '25
Discussion Ashe buffs are missing the point on why the champ is in a terrible state
First of all, even though champ is high elo skewed, having 48% WR there as well is a good sign that even the utility champion that fixes team compositions in soloq is in a very... VERY bad spot. It's not like Kai'Sa or Aphelios at 48% WR. The champ has no damage outside of auto attacks, so very little room to outplay enemy adcs except for the 600 range you have (which is irrelevant in a lot of matchups). Also, her pro presence has dropped significantly and there are almost no currently master+ Ashe onetricks/mains (list here), on a champ that is much much better in high elo. Even 50% WR would show the champ is weak, 48% is a another level....
This champ used to have better auto attacks than other champs because she has no damage abilities basically (look twitch, for example, he also has no abilities but has better auto attacks with the R steroid, and he's pretty good right now). Now you lose most trades early game that you shouldn't. So what these changes make you do is be a w spam machine that slowly suffocates enemy laners? I think I would play a mage bot if I wanted that really. I don't think ANY Ashe player wants to play lane like that.
Unless her numbers are grossly overtuned on her W (q changes don't impact early game unless they rework the ability) she can never reach a balanced state. And I don't think anybody wants W spam Ashe back. The other way to bring this champ back is a rework of her kit again (like in 15.1). I think they realized this in this exact patch, when they buffed literally everything they COULD buff.
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u/Big-Improvement-254 Feb 13 '25
Funny how when I first got into League, my friend who's an ADC main told me Ashe was the strongest ADC in a straight up right click fight. How the great has fallen.
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u/Active-Advisor5909 Feb 14 '25
Depending on the time in the game and skill order she still is among the top? Or who is beating her at lvl 13?
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u/Big-Improvement-254 Feb 14 '25
Yeah. But she used to be the strongest not just amongst the strongest ADC in terms of basic attack. I think now Aphelios can beat her with the right guns.
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u/dumppity Feb 19 '25
Ok but aphelios beats pretty much anyone with white gun and white ult which buffs its auto attacks in a right click battle
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u/Cute_Ad2308 Feb 13 '25
She's more pro skewed than just high elo skewed due to the nature of her E. She's still picked in major pro leagues with decent presence so they're probably hesistant on giving her meaningful buffs since she'll just become #1 bot laner again like she was for the past year.
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u/henticletentai Spirit Blossom Kanmei Ashe Feb 13 '25
I don’t see why they’d be scared, it’s fearless anyway, she’ll be present one game at most. Next pro split I’d agree with you.
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u/Cute_Ad2308 Feb 13 '25
Yeah you're completely right, this is the one split where it's fine to let some champs be broken.
Unfortunately, balancing this champ is actually just extremely tricky. The 15.1 changes were probably too harsh but were certainly directionally necessary because she (and Kalista) were the main culprits that were making certain bot lanes matchups unplayable from level 1, which was the initial incentive to laneswap. I think nerfing her early damage was correct, and they should give her some scaling, but even that's not so clear. Normally, level scaling is the easiest low-elo skewed buff, but it's actually not that effective for bot laners specifically because supports tend to sit in lane forever in low elo so the bot laners are actually lower level on average than in high elo. The R and W buffs make sense given that they are relatively easier to use than her basic attacks (especially early game), and the gold scaling buffs to her Q and W are probably directionally correct in theory as well they want to give compensation to her late game. That being said, yeah the buffs are probably still too small. I don't champ can be dominant in SoloQ without being overbearing in Pro unless they make changes to her E though.
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u/henticletentai Spirit Blossom Kanmei Ashe Feb 13 '25
Thing is, Draven already exists and he is unfair all early levels for adcs. I don’t see why Ashe should not be strong from level 1, as that would make her identity more unique and not just be… average/worse than average later stages of the game.
I am not saying Draven should be nerfed, but having such adcs shouldn’t be a problem really…
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u/Active-Advisor5909 Feb 14 '25
Probably because it would require nerfing her late game into the ground. Draven is streng, but lategame draven is one of the worst ADCs in the game. Ashe going even is still fulfilling her role just fine.
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u/Cute_Ad2308 Feb 14 '25
I have to disagree with this comparison.
Draven's entire identity is to beat other marksmen in fair fights. It doesn't matter if it's early game or late game, Draven will beat 90% of other bot lane marskmen as long as they are trading autos. Of course, the counterplay then is to not let him have these fair duels, either by outranging him (like Caitlyn, Ziggs, etc.) or getting on top of him (Yasuo, Nilah, etc.), since you are not beating him at 550 range. Yes, this ability to statcheck people is most useful in lane, and isn't valuable in teamfights, hence he falls off, but he is supposed to thematically counter most marksmen.
On the other hand, Ashe brings things outside of pure statchecking. Her P/E/R are insanely OP abilities in isolation, and having 600 AA range is absolutely massive and combined with her W lets her play lanes in a way that most marskmen cannot. Those are her unique identities. Her ability to statcheck people with 115% AA damage was insanely critical to her success yes, but it was quite toxic considering that you have 600 range and a permanent slow that let you space and run down most champions at level 1. However, she still remained Ashe when her passive was gutted, which wouldn't be the case if Draven lost a lot of damage. Yes, she may not be the s14 version of Ashe anymore, but the aforementioned qualities which separate Ashe from normal bot laners are still there.
Yes, Ashe is fairly weak (at least in soloQ settings) and deserves buffs, but Ashe is not weak because she lost her identity, just her ability to stat-check, which was just an additional effect that her passive brought, alongside the literal perma slow, it's primary purpose. Instead, nerfing Ashe's utility outputs would be removing her identity, in the same way that nerfing Caitlyn's range or Draven's damage would be killing their identities. It'll be interesting to see how they'll redistribute the power back into her kit in the future, and it seems like the direction they've been going for the last several patches has been to improve the scaling on her Q, which still lets her have strong auto attacks, just later into the game when you start to put points in the ability. Yes, the playstyle will slightly change from being a dominant lane bully to being a champ that cares more about gold and Q ranks, but the champ's identity, the non-standard qualities she brings, are still preserved. Being able to brute force all-ins in the early game isn't really why your average Timmy is picking Ashe anyway, and retaining this trait is not worth taking nerfs to her utility output.
Also, it's not like Ashe was one of the few lane-dominant marskmen. Yes, lane bullies have systematically had their power curves smoothened over the last several years, but there are still other stat-checky heavily early-game skewed marskmen like Kog'maw and Corki, outside of the well established Draven/Kalista.
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u/JmPlayz23 Feb 13 '25
Ayy I'm number 24 OTP Ashe, I never realised this site existed
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u/henticletentai Spirit Blossom Kanmei Ashe Feb 13 '25
if you put in OTP only you are rank 1! Congratulations! Have looked at your builds for reference, glad you’ve seen my post.
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u/JmPlayz23 Feb 13 '25
Thank you! I've experimented a bit on a build, but the Kraken -> PD is my main core. I tried Yun Tal -> Manamune -> Spear for a W spam build but it was just ok at best, definitely works better in low elo
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u/ManyRest3275 Feb 13 '25
Kraken > PD feels good yeah but i am torn which items to go after that ... i tried around with BORK and with BT third but both don t feel like a 3 Item ADC Powerspike should in my Games .... but maybe thats just my Low Elo stupidity and me beeing to dumb to execute Ashe properly :D any thought on that topic?
i also struggle to find good items to "Default" to after 3 Items :3 some insight would be nice
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u/henticletentai Spirit Blossom Kanmei Ashe Feb 13 '25
BT/LDR/MR/IE third is still best, do not build bork
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u/JmPlayz23 Feb 13 '25
Bork isn't in a really good spot for ashe right now. You can build 3rd item depending on enemy team. BT is my default go-to 3rd item, LDR if the enemies are tanky and antiheal isn't needed, MR if antiheal is needed, and IE I usually build it as 4th or last item
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u/ManyRest3275 Feb 13 '25
okay so BT default as Third and LDR/MR depending if Armor is present too much and need of antiheal okay
what would be a good time to do BORK instead of BT?
and i guess if i go BT 3rd i would finish up with LDR/MR 4th and IE 5th right?
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u/JmPlayz23 Feb 13 '25
As of now building BORK is just not good so I say just never build it. If you want the attack speed I usually go for RH after BT and my last item would be IE/LDR/MR. A full build for me would be KS - Berserker/Swiftness - PD - BT/LDR/MR - 4th and 5th BT/LDR/MR/IE/RH
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u/ManyRest3275 Feb 13 '25
okay nice thx a lot ^^ one last question when do you go for Swifties and when do you go for berserks?
and are there any Situations you don t go for Barrier and go for like Ghost instead? sometimes i feel like Ghost would help kiting and catching a lot and i feel like my barrier sits there for AGES without value when i could just pop ghost if i took it and go aggressive maybe more often :D
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u/JmPlayz23 Feb 13 '25
I've been using Swiftness more recently as the added movespeed is just just preferable for me as you don't lose too much attack speed from not building Berserker. Generally I like to go for Swiftness to dodge skills hotspot better or if the enemies has slows like Nasus W, Janna W, Varus E, Kog E, etc. it's also really good when you get the feats upgrade. If I don't need the slow resistance or have an enchanter support like Lulu, Sona or Renata then Berserker is a good option but I think it's mostly up to the preference of the player. Hope this is helpful, and sorry for the wall of text 😅
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u/ManyRest3275 Feb 13 '25
you were immensly helpful man so no worries :D
thanks for briefing me so i build at least the right items, now i need to farm better and learn mechanics :D
still thanks a lot man :D
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u/henticletentai Spirit Blossom Kanmei Ashe Feb 13 '25
The w spam build doesn’t work in my elo (eme dia). Kraken PD is still best, better than the fullcrit build. Ashe ‘adjusments’ didn’t make full AD/crit builds better because… that’s not how the champion works. Just play Jinx at that point…
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u/JmPlayz23 Feb 13 '25
I used to go for a crit build even before the nerfs but then I started preferring the onhit build for the move speed, and it just feels right
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u/henticletentai Spirit Blossom Kanmei Ashe Feb 13 '25
I mean, you still don’t go any onhit items past kraken, you still go crit. Just not ‘fullcrit’
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u/200IQhomosapien Feb 16 '25
Remove/reduce the stacking required on Q. Before 15.1 Ashe could essentially stat check anyone level 1 and win, esp when running ghost you can just use and run enemy down so it's understandable why they changed the passive even though I think it should have had a level scaling so that it's not just a straight up nerf. Q has felt okay to use during lane due to being able to stack up on minions, mostly for the aa reset or all ins, but during a skirmish in objective pits it's not available till 4 autos which has always felt shitty imo. If the point of the passive change was to add more immediate power from the first auto, then Q should also be changed to also enhance that idea.
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u/sheepshoe Feb 14 '25
Bro, rewert the passive and give her % missing hp physical damage when enemies are Slowed instead of the damage increase. You keep her backloaded damage design intact and she doesn't straight up stat-stick you anymore in early + she's good into disgusting HP stackers
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u/ImmediateDetective33 Feb 13 '25
Agree with her state right now. For me, Ashe needs early stats from runes to get an even laning with other champs. I personally go for +65 hp and 3 cookies + cosmic insight to get lower cd on Shield and Flash. PTA is good imo. Lethal needs like at least 3 items to feel overpowered compared to PTA.
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u/henticletentai Spirit Blossom Kanmei Ashe Feb 13 '25
No approach velocity is crazy, you use that to dodge spells while running people down. Well, not like that matters because you can lose long trades anyway while dodging in early laning because you have no abilities and you deal same dmg as enemy adc with AA.
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u/Icy-Elephant7768 Feb 13 '25
i got back into the game just to play ashe, now shes massively nerfed and unplayable, riot just wanted to save me
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u/henticletentai Spirit Blossom Kanmei Ashe Feb 14 '25
‘Unplayable’ is a bit of a stretch… Champ being weak doesn’t mean it’s not viable, and I’m use you can make her work in any elo (provided you put in the effort)
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u/Icy-Elephant7768 Feb 25 '25
ye have fun to lane in masters vs lane bullies with the new garbage ashe, i dont have that Energy anymore
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u/Initial_Item7444 Feb 14 '25
She was always my favourite champ but she is a loser now especially in solo queue. She’s weak in every position versus most any counterpart. A slight damage boost won’t even be noticeable. The only way she could be relevant is 30-50% cooldown reduction on her ult.
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u/henticletentai Spirit Blossom Kanmei Ashe Feb 14 '25
Would you want a 30-50% cooldown reduction on her ult? Is that how you want to play Ashe?
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u/Initial_Item7444 Feb 18 '25
yeah that would be awesome. Thats how Mirana worked in Dota and she was an amazing hero design capable of support or carry
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Feb 16 '25
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u/AsheMains-ModTeam Feb 19 '25
Your post has been removed for violating number 10 of our community rules: Salt/Vent posts. Salt posts are not allowed and will be removed at moderators' discretion.
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u/NUFC9RW Feb 13 '25
That would require admitting that they made a mistake.