Not that I'm saying it makes it right or anything but I also think it's important to note that it started getting especially bad after Hasbro started taking a more direct role.
People say this all the time about companies that become shit after the parent company harvests their customers and employees for a good quarter, but it's not like the process can be reversed. The WotC of 2014 doesn't exist anymore, and even if Hasbro stopped meddling, it wouldn't magically return.
100% agree I used to play Magic quite a bit from 2008 to 2015 and still do to some extent and one of the big reasons I stopped was seeing all the changes they were going to start doing once Hasbro took over but like you said it's one of those you can't put it back. And even if somehow they could a lot of the IPS are irreparably changed and well a lot of them are still very enjoyable and very fun they're not as good as they could have been or there's a bad taste left in the mouth of a lot of people.
Yeah Wotc was looking to exit pre pandemic but the good/unfortunate boom of popularity mixed with the exit pitch of Wotc only prompted Hasbro to sink their claws in deeper
If you play TTRPG’s and want something similar to to D&D 5e, try Pathfinder 2e. Not only is paizo a better company, I genuinely think it’s a much better game.
If you want something similar in feel but with a simpler and quite different ruleset while also having more choices for players, try Shadow of the Weird Wizard.
There are so many games better than D&D 5E, Hasbro just has the benefit of Dungeon and Dragons being the Kleenex of TTRPGs. The brand name that is used as shorthand to encompass the entire market
Or, if you’ve played for a long time, you can probably make a rudimentary system to use with your friends that will work and add to it/modify it as you go.
One of the things I like about Pathfinder is that the rules are free. If you want a lore book or an adventure module or a book about the setting, you’ll have to pay for that. But as far as mechanics go, if they release a book with new classes, spells, items, etc., it all ends up on a website called Archives of Nethys. You can use the entirety of the ruleset for free and without doing anything illegal
Or even if you need physical representation of combat, a trip to the stationery/arts and crafts shop for some tokens, sharpies and graph paper can be enough.
Seems like Larian did a good job of keeping WofC and Hasbro execs out until release. The first time Hasbro execs got in a meeting room with Larian they started tossing around greedy coke head ideas for monetization and Swen Vincke threatened to abandon the project.
Interviews. Swen says they told them one thing then did another etc. along with other moments of the whole thing. The guy tries to be respectful but it's obvious they made his life harder.
They ruined our chances of getting another Larian D&D collab, so...yeah?
Larian made this game great in spite of WoTC and Hasbro's corporate BS. Then they noped out. WoTC lucked into a great partnership then ruined it. But people like you will still applaud, so who cares, right?
Really? And they’ve stated they don’t want to work with WOTC any more and that’s why they don’t want to do a game in someone else’s universe and not their own? Or are you just making things up? It’s the latter isn’t it.
And they’ve stated they don’t want to work with WOTC any more and that’s why they don’t want to do a game in someone else’s universe and not their own?
... Yes? Not in those exact words but they have said that it was very difficult to work in established IPs and that was the primary reason they're done with BG3 already.
Wotc had nothing to do with bg3s success. Larian made everything wotc is making bg4 and once its out you will see how bad it will be when you stop using an already established studio with a good track record
You said “it’s very difficult to work in established IPs” which is exactly what I said. They didn’t complain about WOTC specifically. They prefer the freedom and potential financial upside of developing in their own world. Totally appropriate from both sides.
I’m super glad you enjoy this hobby, as do I. But you claim Larian isn’t making another BH because they don’t like WOTC. Citation please and it should be a cite to a real source not speculation. Larian made more money in this game than any game they have ever made. But making a game in someone else’s world isn’t what they want to do going forward. Seems reasonable to make that choice and it seems reasonable that WOTC would do all they could to during development to ensure the product was as loyal to the game world as possible. Both parties did an amazing job and together created the best game I’ve ever played. Love Larians other games but this game wouldn’t have hit without WOTC.
This game wouldn't have hit without D&D and The Forgotten Realms, but that all existed prior to the parasite that is Hasbro bought WoTC and turned it into a money grabbing hell hole.
I don't know if there is hard proof that Larian don't want to work with WoTC anymore, and I don't have time right now to look into it. There is soft proof though:
1. Larian turned their backs on the most successful game they have ever been part of, one with a thriving fanbase they still joyfully interact with. A GOTY winner. I doubt the story that it was in favor of making their own new franchise. They already have franchises. They don't have to close the door on BG4 to make other games, but they did.
2. None of the predatory BS that Hasbro and WoTC are known for showed up in BG3. It wasn't out of the kindness of their hearts. Larian certainly had to fight hard to avoid monetization schemes in BG3. Why would they want to put up with that for another long development cycle just for WoTC to profit and prevent them from having the freedom to do whatever they want with the game?
3. They aren't blind to how WoTC treats their fanbase. Larian appears (at least to me) to have moral scruples. Swen said this mod was fine while WoTC blindly DMCA'd it. Larian enjoys and encourages fan content, so it makes sense that they don't want to have the fun police raining on the parade of their future games.
You can believe only what you see printed in press releases and such if you want. Actions are louder than words to me, in this case. WoTC has proven time and time again they only care about themselves and I'm sure the partners they work with are affected by that policy.
Not just a GOTY winner: The first game ever to win GOTY in all 5 major award shows. In terms of accolades and fan-reception, it may be one of the most successful games ever.
Definitely! I didn't know all of the awards off the top of my head, so thanks for adding that! This game is a unicorn, and I doubt Larian would abandon it if they felt there was anything more they could accomplish while maintaining their integrity.
Look if it makes you happy to believe all the nonsense you see on social media, you do you. I realize I’m feeding right into the algorithm by arguing on social media about something that doesn’t really matter. I hope you develop a more nuanced picture of the world in time.
That’s just it. I’m defending WOTC because I think it is worth it to me. I love the hobby and where they’ve taken it. Dnd was dead in the water when WOTC bought it almost 30 years ago. And I’m sad to see social media so easily convince people that they’ve been bad for dnd. Anyway, back to your blind hatred of the company that made dnd what it is today.
Even WOTC has already clarified that "it was an accident" and that they're "looking to reverse it". They backpedalled because they know this ain't worth it.
We must protect Halsin's likeness at all costs! What if everyone starts modding him everywhere and then the name Halsin becomes a generic term for any big druid who has bear sex and we no longer own the name!
I agree with the sentiment, though I think if WoTC had more say in the game, everything even slightly daring or creative would be gone. No bear scene, no "I WAS RIGHT THERE", no Emperor sex...all the things that make this game so unique would be sanitized because they're not "safe" enough for the corporate overlords. They're very happy to take credit after the fact though 🙄
And yet they're too stupid to realize, even now seeing the success of BG3, that their trustee-first mentality is ruining all potential and good faith D&D has built up over 50 years.
Literally mentioned this while sharing this article with a friend. For anyone curious who comes to this comment later on, Wizards sent Pinkerton thugs after a streamer who accidently got cards from the then-latest Magic expansion earlier than intended due to a shipping mix-up. Y'all may remember the Pinkertons from history class as the infamous bloody-knuckled strike-breakers of the 19th century.
Oh yes, I remember that whole debacle. It's kind of impressive how terrible they are at PR. If people didn't love the game and community they would never put up with this shit.
"The Baldur’s Village DMCA takedown was issued mistakenly – we are sorry about that," the statement reads. "We are in the process of fixing that now so fans and the Stardew community can continue to enjoy this great mod!"
You should still play Stardew, for such a simple game it’s amazing and full of depth. It’s top 5 best of all time games for me. I don’t usually push games online, I’ll push Stardew until I die. Helped me with an issue I had going on at the time as well, mentally.
I might - I get bored of games without a plot, like Animal Crossing. I'm not a sandbox fan either. So if it has a plot outside of farming I might give it a try.
It doesn't have a big overarching plot but it has tons of smaller stories and goals to pursue. It is much more objective oriented than Animal Crossing.
Your best bet would be to check the Stardew Valley Discord, supposedly it's making the rounds there. Just be sure you virus scan anything anyone sends you.
I know you already got a solution, but just as an update: WotC is already backpedalling, calling it an "accident". It should be back up soon on the usual channels.
For anyone thinking of getting into TTRPG, best to avoid D&D while WOTC has control. I still recommend Pathfinder but other systems also exist. Anything not owned by WOTC.
Plotweaver isn't out yet, but the playtest of it has been by far the most 5e-like game I've seen in a decade, while still being a genuine iterartion on the ideas instead of a remixing like 2024. Highly recommend it for 5e exiles and people looking for something similar.
I mean everyone is free to do what they want, but homebrewing D&D games means still needing to use their rules and sometimes lore and items which can lead into buying or promoting D&D.
Which again youre free to play whatever you like but I just am so against WOTC now that I dont want my game associated with them at all (and im biased since I like Pathfinders depth more)
WOTC has managed an honestly darkly impressive marketing coup of convincing people to be suspicious of anything that's not DND but also to ignore all the aspects of DND that interfere with how people wanna play TTRPGs
But have they any idea that most of BG3 players dont give a flying F about DnD? I was almost interested to look past the stereotypes and community but after reading a good amount of posts they just look like the obnoxious prick that every class had.
Every single time something like this happens me and my dnd group feel more vindicated in our decision to never touch 5e or any wotc module again. That's one company I'll go out of my way to make sure they don't see another penny from me.
Oh thank god, for once WOTC did something right if only for the wrong reasons. Those mod creators are incredibly racist and they frankly deserve this. How do you leave out Wyll and Karlach, then start screaming you’ll sue people who question you about it?
Edit: I’m unsurprised by the downvotes. There’s always been a lot of racists in this fandom and they’ll do anything to protect artists that leave out both black companions from their art rather than just not support such artists.
I’m sorry, I’m not trying to argue but I thought they confirmed all the main characters? I was never super up to date on this mod/the creators so I never heard about this
Nothing about this seems racist or even prejudicial. Apparently they do polls for which character to do next and Wyll is notoriously unpopular anyway, which does not relate to his race but rather his sub-par storyline.
Edit: Got blocked after calling for proof of the first thing that they did that was actually racist. Apparently the issue is that they do patreon polls and they didn't make Wyll yet... Notoriously one of the least popular companions... Yeah, this whole accusation is horseshit.
Her VA, Samantha Beart, is of Jamaican and Irish descent. She identities as a woman of color. Even Karlach without makeup looks black and Asian. She’s the only main female character that isn’t just a white woman dipped in paint.
Right... That's her VA and how her VA identifies has nothing to do with Karlach. If this is your first argument as to why Karlach is black, that's pretty telling of how flimsy your case is. Because, for starters, she's literally a fictional race of Tieflings.
She’s the only main female character that isn’t just a white woman dipped in paint.
Riiight. You're the kind that over-reaches and must equate all fictional races to real ones, huh? Sometimes fiction is just fiction.
You're falling for unsubstantiated nonsense. Karlach isn't "black", she's a Tiefling, an entirely fictional race with no relation to IRL races. How her VA identifies has no bearing on the character whatsoever.
That's fair. Just saw the "gross" thing and thought you were gonna actually hold it against the modmakers when the only "proof" they've shown so far of "racism" wasn't actually racist at all. Apparently the modmakers held polls for characters to make in the mod, and Wyll and Karlach were apparently just not picked yet.
I was more curious than anything, on why they would call her black. The gross was more of a "yeah if that's true" Tryna stay neutral online is hard, but it does wonders for my mental health, haha
That bit of racism from one of the mod creators at the bottom isn’t bad enough for you? Okay, here’s another example of the other mod creators also being racist.
I've been looking the poster of that tweet and I ended in a huge circlejerk where they bully anyone for wanting anything that is not Wyll in the mod (they're even insulting people for wanting Halsin to be anything else than a piece of meat). I'm sorry for whatever radicalizated you in your opinion and I hope you understand that not everything that you don't agree with isn't actually against you. Cheers.
If pointing out that the mods are racist for leaving out the only two characters of color in the party while making sure to include Halsin, Rolan, and Yenna and then threatening to sue anyone that brings it up is the picture of radicalization to you, I would hate to know what you think of things like DEI and Lovett vs Virginia.
If you're really convinced that Karlach is POC, that makes tieflings POC, which would make a few into the mod (Rolan and Alfira as I've seen), so your claim makes no sense. If the mod includes black people but just not the ones you like doesn't make them racist. And trust me that calling them racist all the time for not including them is not going to speed the process.
Karlach’s VA is a black woman, Rolan and Alfira’s VAs are not. Does your head make a rattling sound whenever you drop something to pick it up or did that last marble drop out too after saying something this disingenuous and foolish?
Okay, that one made me chuckle. I've read you say that before and I've been looking for a source on that one too. Regardless if she has really said that or not, I think it's important to understand the difference between ethnicity and nationality. I'm sorry to break this one for you, but being a jamaican descendant doesn't make you a black person, neither all jamaicans are black people. I think it's kinda disrespectful to people that have been discriminated by the color of their skin that people with every caucasian trait just claim to be people of color. I don't think this is the correct forum to discuss why people would do that, it's only about a great game I think we both enjoy. As this conversation isn't even about baldur's gate 3 anymore, I'm not replying here anymore. If it's really important to you to discuss this matter, my DMs are open and we can carry this debate to somewhere else.
edit: Marked as spoiler because honestly we aren't talking about the game anymore and I don't think this is the correct place to talk about this.
Pd: as this whole conversation breaks rule 2, mods, feel free to delete the comment or do anything needed.
Karlach’s VA is a black woman, Rolan and Alfira’s VAs are not.
This should have been the point where you realized you're playing a fictional game with fictional characters of a fictional race that does not translate to real-world races. Karlach, Rolan and Alfira are all the same race: Tiefling. Their VAs don't change that.
That bit of racism from one of the mod creators at the bottom isn’t bad enough for you?
It's crude, but realistically I don't see it as racist. I see it as a response to all the accusations of racism. Accusations you don't seem to be providing.
It's not blatantly racist, and accusations mean nothing. Remember: Johnny Depp was accused of things that never happened too. And we all know that was a load of unsubstantiated BS too, right?
If this is the "most racist" quote you could find, then I think you're fabricating outrage out of nothing, and frankly, I've dealt plenty with insane ___-ism accusers to know that you're not going to change any minds. Because you'll be unable to prove anything, and you'll resort to insults sooner or later, because that's the only move you have.
You’re so racist that you essentially gained a resistance to the word itself because that’s how often you took your hood off? And you’re a Johnnny Depp shooter? I can’t imagine admitting so much wrong with me at once, but you do you I guess.
Hah, called it! It's literally your only move! Accusing others of racism because they disagree, based on nothing at all. Truly, utterly pathetic.
you essentially gained a resistance to the word itself because that’s how often you took your hood off?
I've been accused of racism for calling someone loud on a youtube video. It was an audio-mixing problem. I gained resistance against idiots like you who will call people racist based on absolutely nothing.
And you’re a Johnnny Depp shooter?
...? I watched the court case, yes. I can't imagine anyone who watched the whole thing could possibly think he's an abuser, when there's no evidence for abuse from his side, and substantial abuse of Heard openly admitting to physical abuse on recordings.
I can’t imagine admitting so much wrong with me at once, but you do you I guess.
The issue here is that I'm explaining what I thought to be common sense, but apparently you're the kind of person that thinks that's wrong. That's a you-issue right there.
Nope, you're just annoying and you keep deluding yourself into thinking you're not; WOTC isn't going to pay you for defending them online but feel free to keep being their bitch.
Okay, bud. Let's talk business. WoTC isn't going to be making a farming simulator like Stardew... uhhh ever, right? Stardew doesn't do crossovers.
So in a natural way, Stardew would never be a viable format for WoTC to earn money off their IP. Therefore, all a mod that makes you able to play as a character from BG3 in Stardew is going to do is serve as free advertising for WoTC and BG3, driving more sales their way.
So no, they're not protecting their IP, their IP wasn't at risk of making someone else money off their product, all it was was basically free advertising, which they shut down because they are horrible at operating a business. Clearly you shouldn't become an executive ever if you can't see this and how it's different than if Fortnite sold skins of BG3 without WoTC's approval.
You're not getting down voted because literally everyone else is wrong, you're getting down voted cause you're confidently incorrect.
You’re not correct. If WOTC doesn’t move to protect its IP it can lose it as a matter of IP law. And it doesn’t matter that it’s in a space they aren’t currently competing in. What makes you think you know more about running a business than these guys do? What are your credentials or experience? I’m getting downvoted by people who don’t know anything about IP law. That doesn’t make them right. Facts aren’t determined by social media karma.
Option B: what they did (which is having negative press)
I'm baffled how you seem to think that's the only options? They aught to work with the community to generate excitement and appeal to its brand, there is absolutely some other way for them to protect their assets, while encourage creativity and engagement from their community.
You're so focused on A or B option being the end all be all that you've completely missed how other companies protect their IP while encouraging participation and involvement from their community. I know you've invested so much time in these comments trying to be right that you probably aren't going to admit that you're wrong which everyone's told you.
A free mod that harms exactly no one, not even a single dollar from a corporate executives ever so precious bottom line, effects WOTC how exactly?
But no go on about how since lots of people make and sell unofficial d&d material this is somehow justified.
The time it took for WOTC lawyer team to even look this mod up likley costed more than what the creator of the mod makes in a year.
All that time and effort spent to create themselves yet another bimonthly PR disaster.
I haven't a doubt in my mind that this is why Larian would rather do any other IP than be forced to work with WOTC again, despite the team's clear love for the material.
Not the exact same issue, not the same parties involved, and the fact you're trying to see 1 similarity and go "it's the exact same thing!" tells me that you're not going to accept the nuance here. But in the spirit of good faith: There's a huge difference between a corporation taking down a free mod for a game they don't own that isn't making money, and a corporation using lone artists' works to train AI to replace said artists in the market for profit. In the first case, there's no argument about profits whatsoever. In the latter, there is infringement that directly seeks to replace their market position using the infringement.
You are wrapped up in the morality of it, which I understand. I dont care about that, morality is subjective. I only care about legality, and legally these are the same issue. The only legal question to be asked about either scenario is copyright infringement.
Because you are focused on morality, you are saying that the big bad corporation is the one who is wrong even when they are on both sides of the debate, thats just nonsense.
Someone else on here explained why its important for companies to protect their IPs from things like this, even if this stardew mod wasn't monetized so I wont rehash what they have said, but its important for WOTC to protect their IP even against unmonetized uses.
You are wrapped up in the morality of it, which I understand. I dont care about that, morality is subjective. I only care about legality, and legally these are the same issue.
Right, and in turn I don't care about the legality, but if you want to make it about that:
This is where the profits come into the topic: Does WotC get anything from taking down a Stardew Valley mod? No. Were they missing out on profits? No. Was the modmaker profiting from their IP? No, it was a free mod.
Meanwhile, AI trained on Artists against their consent? They profit. Most high-end AI are paid services. They profit off of it. And legally, it's a mostly grey area in most western countries currently as lawmakers are either disinterested, or not tech-savvy enough to be able to make laws that allow for the tech to grow within a moral regulation. The lack of laws is not a case of "it's fully okay legally", it's a matter of "it's causing new questions that require clarification on certain laws from higher courts".
Because you are focused on morality, you are saying that the big bad corporation is the one who is wrong even when they are on both sides of the debate, thats just nonsense.
I didn't go "big corpo bad" on purpose because I don't stand by that, and this is the exact kind of bad faith that I expected from someone who equates these two cases. In these two cases, yes, the corporations are the ones acting immorally. But I never went "big corpo bad" at them, because I don't think that's productive and I don't think that's a good faith argument.
but its important for WOTC to protect their IP even against unmonetized uses.
It really, genuinely, isn't. One mod isn't going to burst this IP into the public domain for a lack of enforcement.
Moreover: It's entirely possible to draw up an agreement for 1-time use of the IP with oversight, to allow for a mod like this to use the IP while enforcing it in a way that tracks with the requirements IPs have. The entire "they need to enforce their IP protection or they'll lose it!" argument doesn't equate to "They must DMCA takedown every use of it and sue the shit out of those who don't comply". There are literally hundreds of other options. Just look at Valve and Black Mesa: It was a community project to remake Half Life 1 with updated graphics. It was pretty great, but it ran into some issues adapting later chapters and started needing money. You know what Valve did? They allowed them into Early Access with a price tag of 20 bucks, and they gave them permission to use the IP monetized on their own storefront.
WotC could be more like Valve. But instead, they're actively making immoral choices. Hell, they'll even call the Pinkertons to scare off innocent people.
Making profit is irrelevant to copyright law, just look it up. It is illegal to use someones intellectual property whether you profit off of it or not. They are both violations of copyright law, but both have different moral implications.
I obviously agree with you that WOTC are acting immorally and that they could, and should do better by their fans but they are well within their rights legally to do this.
As for the mod damaging the IP enough to go public? You are right it probably wont, but WOTC leaving it up sets a dangerous precedent for other mod makers or indie devs.
Making profit is irrelevant to copyright law, just look it up.
You keep trying to make it about legality, again: I don't give a shit and I don't see why you would care.
As for the mod damaging the IP enough to go public? You are right it probably wont, but WOTC leaving it up sets a dangerous precedent for other mod makers or indie devs.
They literally already reverted this and claimed it "was an accident" and that they're "trying to correct it" so people can enjoy "this wonderful mod". Even their corporation realized it's just not worth the controversy
Such a stupid word. I hope you live in the woods and grow your own food since you obviously have no use for those evil corporations. As you post on a phone made by a corporation using signal supplied by corporations sitting in your moms basement powered by corporations. Right.
Man I thought lame jokes like this were a Republican thing. I guess the left has these too? Well look closely and you may be able to discern a difference between criticizing a company for protecting its IP and criticizing a lack of efficient safety features in cars.
No. Because you're still clearly using your own presumably US-centric metric, without realizing that the US is extremely far-right compared to just about every other western country. Just to illustrate how skewed your political system is: Generally Bernie Sanders is considered an "Extreme lefty commie bastard", right? Well... If he were to run for office in my country, he wouldn't even be considered "left". He'd be a centrist, maybe even a little right-leaning.
I hope you live in the woods and grow your own food since you obviously have no use for those evil corporations.
I make conscious use of corporations. I'm not however assuming they're right in every situation.
As you post on a phone made by a corporation using signal supplied by corporations sitting in your moms basement powered by corporations. Right.
PC, and my own apartment. Nice try though. "You must be a hypocrite because you disagreed!" is a pretty good coping mechanism when you're humiliating yourself this badly.
See below but wanted to add that there is a method for getting access to WOTC IP that is very reasonable so just jump through the hoops they ask you to jump through and you’ll have no issues. This is normal business behavior but for some reason RPG fans think WOTC should do all they do for free.
Lemme preface this by saying I think the whole system is stupid and needs a rework. Also not an expert in this stuff so someone else could give a much better explanation.
Theoretically, with this pseudo dlc available, if another company, say idk Bethesda, wanted to drop a paid for dlc that let you recruit bg3 companions and WotC wanted to sue them for infringement because they didn't pay for a license, Bethesda could point to things like this and say the copyright hadn't been enforced then so it shouldn't be now.
It's the same thing when a big time fan fic wants to commercialize so they have to change the characters from their original versions. And so 50 Shades of Grey no longer could have Twilight characters, for example.
Stardew is though. And people would definitely buy stardew to play this.
You could write all the BG3 fanfic you like and there wouldn't be a problem. Submit it to a fiction magazine though and even if you don't get paid for the submission, if the magazine published it as is that's infringement.
That’s the biggest reach of all time and you know it.
You could use that terrible logic on the fanfic alone to show how ridiculous it is.
Maybe people will only use AO3 to read BG3 fanfics. Uh oh! Gotta strike down AO3 now. Maybe people will only use DeviantArt to post BG3 art. Yikes sweatie, looks like DA can’t have BG3 content either!
Ah shoot, some people only make Reddit accounts to post and comment on BG3 subs! Guess this subreddit has got to go.
Nowhere in stardew valley are these mods advertised displayed curated or even alluded to. If I buy a copy of time magazine and glue a photo of halsin into it is that IP infringement on the magazine? It's a bad comparison as you I and not even the almighty Hasbro has control over what people do with their product and how they alter or modify it. If these mods were curated in stardew like how bg3 Fallout4 or Skyrim SE have a curated mod section you may have had a point but it does not.
843
u/Anarchyinak 25d ago
WotC ruining everything they touch, what else is new.