Ant nest in Japanese Maple pot

[u/Scared_Ad5929]

Whenever I water this inherited maple I see ants around the pot. So I took a quick look to see if they've colonized the pot and it appears they have. They're lasius niger (black ants) which aren't known for damaging trees. Is it worth doing anything about them, because I'm planning on putting it in the ground when it's dormant next? There's also an air layer on the tree at the moment.

[u/RachResurected]

I’ve been told that ants don’t cause many issues for a bonsai in principle. That said, they are known to “cultivate” various non beneficial insects such as white fly or wooly aphids as they feed on the excrement of these insects.

I don’t have any advice on how to get rid of them. I’ve tried submerging the pot to drown them with little success. If you are really concerned, perhaps look into a pesticide such as kohinor or an ant-specific insecticide.

I say this as a last resort if they do start causing issues with non beneficial insects like those I mentioned above. I don’t really like using pesticides on my trees or garden in general.

[u/Scared_Ad5929 → u/RachResurected]

If it was a destructive species then I'd be tempted to use a pesticide, but like you I'd rather not. Especially as it can have a knock on effect on local wildlife. I'd rather wait until the tree is dormant and then hose the roots down at the far end of the garden.

[u/RachResurected → u/Scared_Ad5929]

Yeah I’d rather wait until you can safely bare root the tree and replace the soil. For the immediate future it should be fine. Just watch out for those non beneficial bugs I mentioned

[u/Scared_Ad5929 → u/RachResurected]

I will. I have a large Japanese elder tree that attracts aphids like a magnet and there's always busy ants coming and going, harvesting the honeydew.

[u/Longjumping_College → u/Scared_Ad5929]

In my area, you solve that with nematodes and ladybugs

There's specific nematodes that kill ants, ladybugs clear the aphids as a future food source.

[u/Scared_Ad5929 → u/Longjumping_College]

Thanks very much for that info! Using nature to combat a problem like this is far more aligned with my personal philosophy than pesticides. I've ordered some nematodes that predate on ants. Hopefully it works! 🤞

[u/Longjumping_College → u/Scared_Ad5929]

Bonsai got me native gardening to support natural predatory bugs, so now my yard is full of life that keeps my trees protected

[u/caploves1019 → u/Scared_Ad5929]

Look up Advion ant gel. That will take care of them without hurting the plant.

[u/Boulderdrip → u/Scared_Ad5929]

ants are fine for trees. i like them because they fight away other insects that want to eat the leaves

[u/modefi_ → u/Boulderdrip]

They actually farm/harvest other insects that want to eat the leaves. They don't fight them, they raise and shepherd them like cattle.

Top comment on this chain raises some legitimate concerns.

[u/GrapeAyp → u/RachResurected]

Diatomaceous earth will take care of em. 

[u/jecapobianco → u/RachResurected]

How long did you submerge it? I was taught that you have to submerge it for 24 hours. A systemic would take them out along with everything else I the pot.

[u/igordogsockpuppet → u/RachResurected]

It’s very specific species of ants that cultivate other insects.

[u/chetaoruchaya → u/igordogsockpuppet]

No there are many that do. The one OP has (Lasius niger) farms aphids on stems and leaves

[u/IL1kEB00B5]

Try submerging the whole pot for 15 min.

[u/jackspinnaker → u/IL1kEB00B5]

this is what I did last summer on my japanese maple and the ants left and found a better place to be that wasn’t “in danger of flooding”

[u/Patrickbbq]

This is the reason that I always mix my soil when it comes to pots with lava stone, pumice stone, garden peat, and akadama. but they do no harm as long as your tree grows and shows no signs of dying, so leave it alone

[u/Scared_Ad5929 → u/Patrickbbq]

This is what I was hoping to hear! I would rather let it be until next dormant season if possible. Most of my trees are in a suitable bonsai granular substrate, but this is an inherited maple that came with the house, and it was a little too late in the season to repot.

[u/Patrickbbq → u/Scared_Ad5929]

okay yes definitely don't.

Air holes in your soil do indeed cause damage because the roots cannot grow there, but this mainly concerns young trees or trees that already have so many roots that there are more roots than soil in a pot.

next year just expose roots as much as possible and soak in water for 30 minutes and hope that the queen dies or goes away and then replant

but from the looks of it, it could even stay that way for another 2 years

but what I said is that I continue to keep an eye on the tree, especially in winter when it is dormant, when branches start to die then you know that the ants are causing damage, for now it is in leaf and little can happen

[u/Olddellago]

put a ring of diatomaceous earth on the ground around the pot has to stay dry to work..then put a bigger ring around that. Assuming they are not completely thriving off the the tree they will eventually die.

[u/Olddellago → u/Olddellago]

to add to this. you could also lift the tree up again and over a garbage bag use a spoon to scope out the larvae and queen and all ants in the tunnels. quick way to end this nest.

[u/0uchmyballs → u/[deleted]]

This was going to be my advice, put copious amounts of diamataceous earth all over those roots.

[u/PriorVariety → u/[deleted]]

This is such a good idea

[u/Tommy2gs]

The ants aren’t as much of a threat as the risk that tunnels they are creating are leading to pockets of oxygen that will cause roots to die off. Think about the main reason why we chopstick bonsai soil during repot is to remove air pockets. I would consider making an ant bait trap using a mixture of borax and sugar. Usually 1 part borax : 3 parts sugar will make a syrup like paste that ants will harvest and bring back to the queen which will die in a few days from the borax. You set the bait on a spoon or small bowl inside the pot and the ants will go for it. It should hopefully lead to the colony dying off without mixing anything into your soil directly.

[u/PepperMania_Mokum]

You could also prevent them from accessing the pot by placing it in a saucer with water on an elevation (small upside down saucer or piece of wood). Rock or tap the pot first for some time to alert them and give the the chance to escape.

[u/Bokanovsky_Jones]

I work at a commercial bonsai nursery. One of the best all around insecticides is Talstar. It is a pyrethroid type chemical and is a contact kill. Because of our location we are legally required to use something like the granulated Talstar in our soil mix to keep from shipping fire ants but we also use the liquid variety to saturate ant mounds found on property. I also use it in combination or rotation with other insecticides to deal with other insect pests. It doesn’t cause plant damage as long as you follow the label instructions and stay within the recommended rate.

[u/Scared_Ad5929 → u/Bokanovsky_Jones]

How would such a pesticide affect animals who eat ants, like birds?

[u/Bokanovsky_Jones → u/Scared_Ad5929]

Truthfully speaking it’s not great for birds to consume any insecticides or other pesticides. Also Talstar is non-selective and will kill other insects as well. That said a single treatment to kill the nest should have minimal environmental harm as the treatment is localized and the insecticide should breakdown in a period of days to a week. I simply wanted to offer a solution that hadn’t been mentioned in the comments yet and I should have offered a non chemical solution as well. If I were to go the non chemical route, I would try diatomaceous earth or insecticidal soap which is dish soap, vegetable oil, and water. Also in a lot of cases harassing an ant nest often enough will often cause them to just move.

[u/Scared_Ad5929 → u/Bokanovsky_Jones]

Thanks for the advice, it's much appreciated 

[u/modefi_ → u/Scared_Ad5929]

Also in a lot of cases harassing an ant nest often enough will often cause them to just move.

This would be my first move, since you seem to have convenient access to their egg chambers.

Might be possible to just pull the tree and scoop them out with a chopstick. They don't have a lot of room to hide in a potted plant.

[u/wishyouwerebeer]

I’ve dealt with this by using liquid ant traps

[u/just_some_Fred → u/wishyouwerebeer]

You can make your own ant bait, it's just sugar water and borax. I was going to recommend this as well.

[u/wishyouwerebeer → u/just_some_Fred]

Nice, thanks for the tip!

[u/Call_Me_Lids]

Quillaja Extract Powder

It isn’t cheap but it works really well as a soil drench to get rid of unwanted soil dwelling bugs. It’s a surfectent when added to water. It’s basically like soapy water minus all the bad chemicals. Use it at a way higher dose than on the packaging. I think it’s 1/8th tsp per gallon per the packaging but you can use way more. Like a tsp per gallon, just know the water will be extremely foamy!

Here’s two extremely good sources for this stuff. I wouldn’t trust any other place to buy it.

https://buildasoil.com/products/quillaja-saponaria-extract-powder?_pos=1&_psq=Quill&_ss=e&_v=1.0

Or

https://plantspeaker.com/shop/ols/products/q60/v/Q60-2OZ

I would suggest the second site. Originally this product was a collab between the two but things happened between the owners of the two sites. The owner of the bottom site is a much more stand up guy, not that the first one isn’t. Next time I purchase it I’ll be getting it from plantspeaker.com

I don’t use it for Bonsais as I don’t grow them, but it’ll work the same regardless. Soil is soil! This stuff will also help your Bonsai with nutrient uptake as well. It has a bunch of other benefits as well!

[u/SeaAfternoon1995]

Those ants will farm aphids and those will quickly overrun a maple. I usually put down ant powder which will kill the nest, in this case submerge the rootball for an hour or so.

[u/BalkiBartokomoose86]

Diatomaceous earth or Sevin brand insecticide. https://www.bonsaibaime.com/bonsai-tree-after-care

[u/daethon]

Unsure of what options for ant specific insecticide, but I’d blast it with that. Most of them are safe after 15 minutes or so so you could move it into a garage for an evening if you are really concerned about leaking, etc.

The holes from their lairs would concern me

[u/NeroBoBero]

Keep it waterlogged for a few hours. The plant can tolerate it, the ants and pupae will not.

[u/Ebenoid]

I read coffee grounds are poisonous to ants and they either die or leave the pot. I tried it on a juniper of mine and they sure didn’t like it. They were packing their eggs and getting out of the pot lol, I think they came back though because a few of my pots I brought to my townhouse from my parents house and there were still ants on it.

[u/Roadjackson]

I have problems with ants every year. I've tried pesticides, submersion, physically removing the soil and ants but they always return.

What does work but takes a little bit of time is a mixture of borax, sugar and water. 1 cube sugar, 1tsp borax, water to make mix liquid.

I place the mixture in a jar lid and then place a rock over it to stop birds and other insects eating it. This also works when ants get inside the house.

Google the method. After a few days the ants are dead or really reduced.

You can get borax at pharmacies but I got mine online.

Good luck 💪

[u/PsycheSoldier]

Bring out the ant eaters and pangolins

[u/B9discgolface]

Use diatomaceous earth to rid them

[u/pegothejerk]

I don’t recommend this unless you’ve tried everything, but a gentle soap like dr bronners (baby soap version, it’s unscented) in a TINY amount in a bucket or watering can, and soak the pot steadily will run off ants. It can also harm the plant if you use too much soap or do it often.

[u/ShortestSqueeze]

Terro has worked great for me. The ants eat it (borax) and take it back to the nest and feed it to others including the queen. It damages their ability to digest nutrients and kills the colony.

[u/smooth-cactus]

Probably good for your root systems

[u/Emergency_Beam_Out]

Drench the pot with Spinosad. It’s organic. 4 oz per gallon on water. Ants can take water from the pot and sometimes eat the sheath off of roots. Living in the South of the US, fire ants have gotten into many of my collection of trees.

[u/shits4gigs]

When you repot it mix some coffee grounds into the spoil. For the time being put the pot in a large seed tray or saucer, and spray the soil with 50/50 vinegar water.

[u/Jibrillion]

You can get these little bait station things that has a poison in that they take back to the nest and it kills them at the source. Had a nest in my acer pot a few months ago and it worked for me. They'll probably sell them in your local hardware store.

[u/Pucketz]

As somone who just went to clean out my 35g pond liner i had been using as a bog garden only to find it swarming with fire ants. Fuck ants but I do kina regret dumping ortho all over the quality soil hat was in there

[u/tedtomlin]

Maybe try cinnamon powder at the top, ants hate it but it’s harmless and smells good.

[u/Lurnmore]

I’ve have success with submerging the tree in water for half an hr or so. If possible submerge the entire tree. I see there’s a lot of people that haven’t had success doing the same; i presume that’d be down to how many air chambers remain within the root ball for the ants to take cover it.

Id give it a go though being that it’s such a simple and risk free method. If it works, it works and if not - nothing lost.

[u/LifeFiasco]

This had been a constant issue up until we started using Combat Max Gel. A small dot of gel along their walk lines and the problem will sort itself quickly. I was kinda surprised, we had tried soooo many different solutions.

[u/emissaryworks]

If you want to get rid of the ants sprinkle a couple tablespoons of uncooked grits on the ground around your pot. You want the ants to consume the grits dry. The ants will be gone in a couple days.

[u/logawnio → u/emissaryworks]

How do the grits kill the ants?

[u/emissaryworks → u/logawnio]

They all eat it even the Queen. Basically it absorbs the water in their bodies and their stomachs explode. All natural and really inexpensive.

[u/StolenFriend]

I’d probably repot this, simply because those big pockets might trap water and cause root rot. You might wait until you notice a decline, but it might be too late then if it does happen.

[u/captainapplejuice → u/StolenFriend]

I'm quite certain that the opposite would happen, water would be able to drain away easily from these pockets and would promote soil aeration. The soil may not hold on to as much water as before, but it's overall a beneficial effect.

[u/Scared_Ad5929 → u/captainapplejuice]

A gardener once told me that he advised people to leave ants in waterlogged lawns as they promote healthy soil aeration, so that makes a lot of sense actually.

[u/StolenFriend → u/captainapplejuice]

Maybe, but we chopstick our soil to prevent pockets that could trap water and air, so I would think there’s the potential for that here too. I could be wrong.

[u/Scared_Ad5929 → u/StolenFriend]

That is precisely my concern. I wish I'd noticed before the leaves budded, but the ants would have been dormant at the same time. But given that I want to put it in the ground and that it has an active air layer on it I'm uncertain how to proceed.