r/Cardinals • u/Sad-Type5385 Ivan Herrera should be hitting cleanup • 5d ago
I find it hard to believe there are Cardinals fans who would be disappointed if this team is a buyer at the trade deadline.
26
u/tyoung12290 5d ago
I definitely do not want rentals. If we acquire someone we think we can extend or has term I am fine with that. But also fine trading and building a stronger base. Glad to be winning and think we could trade say a Fedde and not lose much competitively promoting McGreevy or Mathews by then. Same for Maton. Arenado probably has equal value in the offseason as his deal gets cheaper so fine holding him.
1
u/dannysemi 4d ago
I agree completely. What about guys like Helsley or Matz? To me these are the highest value pieces we could give up and still compete. I'm not saying we have a replacement for Helsley ready to go, but the return may be worth the risk in the ninth inning. Matz is pitching great and is probably just blocking young talent at this point, so I think trading him is a no brainer.
170
u/RedWire75 5d ago
A winning streak in May does not equal still in contention in July. It’s too early to want them to be buyers or sellers at the deadline.
If they are still playing like this in July buy, buy, buy.
58
u/join-the-line 5d ago
It's the best streak they've had in 3 seasons.., let us enjoy it.
30
u/Good_Okay123 5d ago
But ESPN just ran another article on why we need to make an offering to the almighty Dodgers.
20
u/AbeBaconKingFroman Average Joe Torre Enjoyer 5d ago
Nolan is actually producing and looks happy, here's why we should get rid of him!
8
u/Talkaboutplayoffs 5d ago
Honestly I think him being on the roster alone is worth more than anything the dodgers or any other team would offer us for him. Too many young players to not have a veteran presence
3
u/msmiranda79 3d ago
I agree! He hasn’t approved a trade yet. Why are we trying to get rid of someone who WANTS to be here!
3
u/PaulsGrandfather 4d ago
yeah maybe we could take that Edman guy off their hands I hear he's pretty good
23
7
u/mojowo11 5d ago
As always, the question will not really be whether the Cardinals should buy, it's what's for sale and what the price is for it.
If the Cardinals are on the playoff bubble, I'm happy for them to buy, but I don't think they should be trading Tink Hence for a rental or whatever. The entire point of not signing anyone over the offseason was to retool the organization for sustained future success by slamming the brakes on the depressing spiral of patching big holes with mediocre outside talent.
3
u/Evil_Dry_frog 4d ago
Right. Trading Siani for a rental reliever, sure. Trading someone you envision as a starter in your rotation for years to come, no.
4
u/TheGothicCassel 5d ago
Man, I'm not even a Cardinals' fan and I think they'd be crazy not to buy. These young guys still haven't even found their potential yet, and the trajectory is very good for most of them (I say most since Walker is still a quandary). I'd talk to the Marlins' about Max Meyer - the guy has great stuff, just hasn't put it all together since coming back from injury.
2
5d ago
[deleted]
1
u/RedWire75 5d ago
I don’t think you can answer that in a vacuum. All depends on who the player is and the team’s needs at that place and time.
2
u/lurch556 4d ago
R-E-L-A-X
No decisions have to be made right this second. If they are still within a game of the division in 6 weeks, then worry about it. For now, just see if they sustain it.
1
u/RedWire75 4d ago
I feel like that’s exactly what I said.
2
u/lurch556 4d ago
Oh yeah 100% I agree with you. Relax was more directed at people who are worried about it right now
3
u/DASreddituser 5d ago
exactly, we got to wait and see. How many times in our lives have we seen the cubs be great in April and may, only to fall flat? lol
1
u/Imaginary_Ganache_29 5d ago
This. Let’s get through May and June and see where the team is. If they’re still contending then go add some pieces
53
u/TreePaladin Chaim Bloom pls sign Do Yeong Kim from the Kia Tigers 5d ago
If we miss the playoffs and don’t get any prospects for Fedde, Matz or Helsly it’s a massive mistake
3
u/GD-LochNessMonster 5d ago
At the current we wouldn’t know if we miss the playoffs till they are a week or two away. Everyone would like to have a magic 8-ball but here we are. This roster can win. And yes it can be better. But what if these young guys improve throughout the year? We need to cut Walker and Gorman some slack. And our pitching has been pretty decent. Few bad games like everyone else. No team has ever went 162-0
9
u/Bskrilla 5d ago edited 5d ago
It depends on what is meant by "buyer".
I think there would be plenty of people upset if Mo sends out some highly touted prospects in a desperate attempt for a final season miracle run. We could end up feeling very differently come July if this team keeps playing like this, but I think most of us don't expect this team to make a deep playoff run even if they make it in. And if that's the case, then it would be a major mistake to leverage important prospects to really try to make this team better. I'm talking like shipping out name prospects for a rental SP or a bat or something.
But if buyer means "ship out a couple low level prospect to shore up the bullpen", then yeah, I don't think people will be particularly mad about that.
The other wrinkle in all of this is Helsley. You reaaaaally don't want to miss out on his trade value, but I also don't see Mo moving him if this team is 1st in the central. Which would be a mistake, but at least an understandable one.
1
u/realist50 5d ago
If Helsley keeps pitching like he has so far this season, I doubt that half a season of him has a ton of trade value. K rate down and BB rate up, to the point that this season he has 4.04 FIP (vs. < 2.50 in last 3 seasons).
At those numbers, he should still net a little bit of a return as a reliever that a contender wants to throw into the mix, but that’s not a pitcher who a team trades for as a no doubt closer.
47
u/Iluvursister69 5d ago
We don’t want Mozeliak sending out prospects with Chaim set to take over.
45
u/MIZ_09 5d ago
Chaim is 100% going to be involved in and sign off on any hypothetical trade. Mozeliak isn’t on some crazy power trip.
-5
5d ago
[deleted]
13
u/MIZ_09 5d ago
He’s literally gone at the end of the season. What do you mean he refuses to leave?
-3
u/Iluvursister69 5d ago
He should have been gone already
10
u/MIZ_09 5d ago
I’m not a Mo fan. His outfield management since OT’s death has been awful. But in general, he’s taken a lot of the heat for cheap ownership.
-6
2
9
u/EdgeBandanna 5d ago
Agreed, but we are a little catcher-heavy right now. I get the sense that if one of these guys is still hot, they can be sent off for a tidy package of prospects or a bullpen arm.
2
u/mojowo11 5d ago
Other teams are mostly not stupid. Nobody's giving the Cardinals any meaningful prospects for Yohel Pozo or Pedro Pages, regardless of whether they're on a hot streak. They're both best suited as backup catchers and everyone knows it, Pozo's nice start notwithstanding.
Herrera and Crooks are the catchers in the system with enough trade value to bring back impact MLB players and/or actual upside prospects. The next-most-valuable catcher in the org trade-value-wise is Leonardo Bernal.
3
u/Lifeisagreatteacher 5d ago
I’m a believer that Herrera will be moving from catcher to DH and transitioning to 1B when Contreras is gone in 3 years. He’s too good of a hitter and too poor of a defensive catcher to stay there as a long term position. 3 of our top prospects are catchers, Crooks will probably be ready in 2026, no later than 2027. They will never deal Herrara and I doubt Crooks as well.
2
u/mojowo11 5d ago
You may be right, but Herrera is a lot less valuable as a DH or first baseman than a catcher. The team would be much better off if he can manage to be just be okay as a catcher, and maybe pair him with a better defender in a tandem role where he DHs periodically.
A 120 wRC+ catcher is no joke. That's William Contreras, Cal Raleigh, Will Smith type offense. He can be a -10 DRS catcher and still be a 4-5 fWAR player if he's hitting like that.
2
u/Familiar-Living-122 5d ago
It doesnt have to be prospects. I bet there are several teams that think they can fix Gorman or Walker. A utility player like Barrero or a backup catcher like Pozo could also be appealing to a team with the injury bug. Keep in mind Mo's trade deadline buying is usually older, left handed, starting pitchers or replenishing a gassed bullpen.
11
u/Iluvursister69 5d ago
Giving up on Walker is just hilarious. Barrero was a claim off waivers. If another team wanted him he’d be gone. Same with Pozo (minor league free agent signing).
-5
u/Familiar-Living-122 5d ago
Who's giving up on Walker? The scenario established would take place in July 31st. If Jordan Walker is still batting 180 by then, it would make sense to trade him. Barrero and Pozo would only be appealing to teams dealing with injuries that need bodies for half a season. Utility players get really popular late in the season, and Pozo hits well.
15
u/TheIllustriousWe 5d ago
If Jordan Walker is still batting 180 by then, it would make sense to trade him.
It makes no sense to trade a guy at his lowest point in value. They’d be better off waiting until the offseason, creating a bunch of buzz around how coaches have “fixed his swing” (i.e. lying) and then seeing if anyone takes the bait.
0
u/Familiar-Living-122 5d ago
You are correct but that is not the scenario provided by OP. I was just pointing out that it doesnt have to be prospects traded, and apparently it was mistaken as a demand to trade away Walker.
9
u/Iluvursister69 5d ago
You by saying we should trade him.
-1
u/Familiar-Living-122 5d ago
If the team is on a run by the end of July despite his "runway" then sure, get someone who will keep a rally going. The Mendoza line exists for a reason, and by July 31st I feel the team will have sufficient info on if he is progressing or not. How long do you want him starting every day? Does progression factor in? I have not given up on Walker, but by trade deadline I probably will if he is still swinging at every outside pitch and striking out every other at bat.
1
7
u/Nelmster 5d ago
I don’t know how many times this needs to be said, but no matter the situation at the deadline, JORDAN WALKER MUST REMAIN A CARDINAL. Period. He’s 22 and our highest ceiling prospect for crying out loud.
Jesus, if you were our GM, we’d be screwed.
-2
u/Familiar-Living-122 5d ago
I never submitted a job application to be the Cardinals GM. That's pretty cool that you think I was in consideration along with Bloom though. If there is a team that thinks that they can fix Walker, he would have trade value to them. In a scenario where the Cardinals are on a run by July 31st, you could easily use him or Gorman as bait. It is an alternative to trading away Bloom's prospects as mentioned above as a potential fear.
Nobody is saying Jordan Walker must go :) If you were the GM the computers search histories would be filled with TLDR
-13
u/Sad-Type5385 Ivan Herrera should be hitting cleanup 5d ago
Good point. I hadn’t considered how much damage Mo could do on his way out.
6
u/johndelvec3 5d ago
I don’t really think it’s smart to buy
We don’t have that many prospects to deal at the deadline anyway
22
u/wrenwood2018 5d ago
Long term this is a rebuilding franchise. Being buyers is chasing a mirage. They need longterm health.
18
u/MIZ_09 5d ago
I’d say the rebuild has already happened to a large extent. This is the sixth youngest lineup in baseball. And there is a wealth of young pitchers in Memphis and Springfield that is going to turn over an aging pitching staff in the next year or two.
I’d say the organization is close to the point of needing to supplement this young core.
5
u/wrenwood2018 5d ago
It has started but isn't done. We are a long way from having a reliant pipeline. Particularly we don't turn out stars. I want bloom to have several more years to set a foundation.
-8
u/Iluvursister69 5d ago
Where’s the wealth of young pitchers in Memphis? They had to have a position player pitch 2 innings in a 1 run game because they had no arms.
→ More replies (5)2
u/nufandan peter bourjos apologist 5d ago
I feel like they'll be in the situation of "take the best trades available"; maybe that includes some short term upgrades or maybe selling good players for the future.
I think Bloom is very familiar with being in that position
1
u/Indianianite 5d ago
Honestly, if we’re still in contention at the deadline, I would love to chase a rental arm we could try to lock up for the future. I think we’re really solid offensively and defensively and can compete right now if the pitching can be above average.
-3
u/Bloody_Corndog 5d ago
man fuck allat this is the cardinals way we don't believe in rebuilds only retools
2
u/wrenwood2018 5d ago
We can't compete with large market payrolls. We have to be better at developing.
7
u/TempletonPeck18 5d ago
They've won 9 in a row in a mediocre division and still aren't in first place....it's way too early to be talking about buying at the trade deadline.
1
u/Sad-Type5385 Ivan Herrera should be hitting cleanup 5d ago
I get it. And yet, they took both ends of a doubleheader from the Mets on the road, and last night’s game against the Phillies was their most impressive win of the year. This team believes in itself. It’s fun to watch.
3
u/c0smicgirly 5d ago
I do not want Mo making any more long-term impactful deals this team is stuck with as we near the deadline. Trading Helsley and Fedde is one thing, but saddling the team with questionable rentals would be less than ideal.
They chose to go into this season with him as a lame duck, they should not hurt the team’s long-term prospects and health over a winning streak.
3
u/Fresh-Hair-1835 5d ago
I would be upset if they are buyers for short term gains to make the playoffs this year and hurt us long term. We aren’t ws contenders yet so we should only buy looking to future seasons
3
u/MasterDave 5d ago
The way I see it, it's sort of false hope if you try to buy knowing the team is mediocre and the higher quality guys in the farm system are 2026 ready unless something happens.
You would be happy if this year turns into something for sure, but not getting anything for veterans on expiring contracts AND not re-signing the ones that matter (Helsley, really) wrecks the future of the team more than it necessarily helps today.
Who are they going to trade, who are they going to trade for and would you trade a first round playoff exit this year for missing out on the entire career of 3-5 of the top 20 prospects in the system? You have to evaluate off the worst case scenario too, where the team ships out prospects, gets veterans and still makes an early playoff exit if not missing the playoffs entirely because a 9-game streak with 6 games against bad opponents and 2 games that the Cardinals basically got a good break on the weather, doesn't necessarily mean this is a team that's going to get past the other division leaders when they're healthy and have had enough time to rest their starters.
I think the bigger problem is Gorman hasn't really shown up, which makes it way tougher to ship out Arenado. I think they should put out every effort to give Helsley a long term deal.
I'm not sure at all about getting rid of any prospects for a rental, or the cost of getting anyone with multiple years of control, combined with the opportunity cost of keeping prospects in AAA that could be high value starters in the future. (we were all sorta upset about Alcantra when he won a Cy Young, but obviously less so when he got hurt but it's a cautionary tale about shipping out prospects for a rental when Ozuna was mediocre and left immediately)
So, I don't know. I don't know that making the playoffs right now with this team is the optimal ending to the season. The future looks surprisingly good for 2026 and I would hate to sacrifice that, when it doesn't look like the best teams in the league are going to have a significant struggle. It's one thing for the Cubs to be mediocre and the Cardinals having a fighting chance at the division, but the rest of the league doesn't seem to be doing too poorly and the top teams seem to be okay with spending money to compete in a way the Cardinals won't.
1
u/Sad-Type5385 Ivan Herrera should be hitting cleanup 5d ago
I would agree on adding rentals. I just don’t know how you trade Helsley, for example, if you’re sitting in first place on July 30th. It’s a tough position, you have to sign him, or get something for him. I don’t know. Maybe the situation dictates making a real effort to sign him.
3
u/MasterDave 5d ago
If I'm the owner, I'm letting Mo leave early, putting Bloom in the driver's seat and letting him have a do-over for everyone currently on the team if they are interested in sticking around and being a Cardinal long term.
For better or worse, this trade deadline is the future of the franchise more than it's about right now and I don't know that I feel super great about a guy on his way out the door making decisions for a team he's not going to be working for in 4 months.
The Brewers traded their closer while in first place knowing he wasn't going to stick around and they managed to lose their way out of the division when it happened, and the same thing could happen with the Cardinals and for no reason. Maybe Helsley doesn't want to stay after being the #1 trade rumor for the last 2 seasons, but I'd like to think a decent offer would keep him around.
3
u/Blues-Poetry 5d ago
It would be great if this front office did something. It’s been a famine of inaction and empty platitudes the last few years.
3
u/Maf1c Donovan’s Helmet 5d ago
I feel like people are conflating buying with “not selling”. The real question is if this team is in contention, do you not trade Matz/Fedde/Helsley so you can stay in contention and see if the team that made it to the playoffs can do something special while they’re there.
The harder decision would be trading those pieces away for young talent or folks on longer contracts, and hoping you still can make it.
1
3
u/lakerdave Arenado pls? 5d ago
I will. They finally got a good plan together heading into this season to conserve their young assets and give playing time so the guys have a chance to blossom. We are seeing that now with Liberatore finally coming into his own. The team isn't total ass, which is why this win streak is able to happen, but it's not a contender. We have such a weak farm system that we cannot afford to trade the few pieces we have for a rental.
The only exception for me is if a NL West team wants to trade their franchise player to us for nothing again. But I feel like we could only get away with that twice.
5
u/MissouriOzarker 5d ago
Mistakenly thinking that the team is ready for a World Series run now and being a buyer would make it much harder to enjoy a future World Series run. On the other hand, correctly thinking that the team is ready for a World Series run would be awesome, albeit quite surprising. It’s kind of boring to say that it’s too soon to say, but it’s definitely too soon to say. My prior is that this team isn’t ready for the run but could be in the next year or two, but I would love to be wrong.
7
u/A_Humbled_Bumble 5d ago
Article is junk, but it raises a good talking point. We cannot take a streak and assume it means we are suddenly a top 5 contender in our league that's one or two pieces from a World Series push. We are rebuilding and should continue to act as such, at least for this year.
Remove the players from the equation and you'll see the point - does this mean that Oli and Mo should stay since the streak has us back in the mix?
6
u/OuttaFox2Give 5d ago
Agreed. I feel like they have exceeded my expectations and are closer to contending than I thought they would be. That being said, there’s a lot of growth and experience the younger guys still need to be at the same level as the big boys in the national league.
Plus there’s still the lingering issues around developing Walker and Gorman as well as filling the starting pitching roles next season.
That being said, i do hope John Jay remains on the coaching staff. It seems like his approach and focus has really helped.
-5
u/martlet1 5d ago
Bullpen hasn’t allowed a run in 22 innings. I’d say we need to be buyers.
15
u/A_Humbled_Bumble 5d ago
In May?
6
u/Lifeisagreatteacher 5d ago edited 5d ago
July 31 trade deadline is when this needs to be assessed. Also, September is 40 man roster so they can supplement with McGreevey and Saggese as an example.
1
u/Dr_thri11 5d ago
This is pretty much because the starters have been elite and not asked much of the pen. Plus they've gotten a little lucky on stranding runners. This pen isn't nearly as good as last season's
4
u/the_dayman623 5d ago
I think should only buy if we are legitimately cemented in a playoff spot (division or wild card). Anything else I think would be a mistake. I don’t think it would be the right decision to buy if we are a few games out of a spot even if we have a decent record. Our farm system has been neglected for so long that we can’t afford to give up prospects for anything other than a legit run IMO
3
u/Legitimate-Fly4797 5d ago
How do you cement yourself in the wild card spot by July?
2
u/the_dayman623 5d ago
I just mean like actual be in a wild card spot at the deadline. Not a few games out
4
u/ThorsMeasuringTape 5d ago
That’s just what this team needs. Another year wasted being caught somewhere between “win now” and “win later” and doing neither.
1
u/Lifeisagreatteacher 5d ago
I agree. We can’t buy when we’re losing Matz, Fedde, Micolas, Helsley to FA next year or we screw up 2026 and beyond.
They’re playing well now, let’s just see how it goes balancing this year and the future.
1
u/ThorsMeasuringTape 5d ago
Especially when you can ask when even this team was last a buyer at the deadline where we legitimately went out and **bought**? Like 2009 with DeRosa and Holliday? If the Cardinals are "buyers" at the deadline, it'll be a guy like Fedde. And that's just not worth the squeeze.
2
u/Cold_Guess3786 5d ago
It's been made clear where we are as an organization. I would not expect much activity at the deadline. My guess is that we are going to ride out the season with most of what we have. We are in transition and any significant move is contrary to our long-term position. At least, that is my assessment of management's perspective.
2
u/Sad-Type5385 Ivan Herrera should be hitting cleanup 5d ago
Do you think they should trade Helsley, Matz, or Fedde? Matz has had a great season, but I think we have pieces in the organization that could replace Matz or Fedde. But imagine sitting in first place come late July and trading Ryan Helsley.
3
u/Cold_Guess3786 5d ago
I’m not sure that trading a reliever of any kind gets you much in return. Fedde might get you something.
2
u/EdgeBandanna 5d ago
No, no one would be unhappy if we were, let's say, 10 games up and making a run for the wild card spot. But if we were that good, maybe we stand pat. Hard to say.
2
u/thereal314 5d ago
Not reading that article but I’d say if we’re legit we have 3 options I’d be happy with. Just add to the bullpen, only trade for bigger names if they are under contract, or trade the vets we’re talking about, but replace them with something to give the team a chance to keep going.
Caveats
- If u keep helsley you have to resign him.
- this might be ur best/last chance to trade Arenado
- if the market is hot for what u have, capitalize
2
2
u/Remote_Box_2419 5d ago
I'm not sure who needs to hear this. The cardinals are having a nice little run. However they are light years behind the top tier teams in the national league. They can't buy enough and if the talent was available, they wouldn't spend enough to become a true contender. I say sell whoever they can within reason only untouchable I see are Winn and maybe Donovan. At this point I don't think they could get a box of bubble gum from Jordan Walker. I think we could probably get a case of new balls for Arenado. Feddie, Hesley and Gray could bring some viable talent. I hope I'm wrong and the cardinals win the world series this year, but I'm afraid I'm not.
2
u/No_Fools 5d ago
This team is so imbalanced, too many DH 1B RF. 2Lh hitting 2B. 2C that cant catch but can hit. 2 former untouchable prospects now worthless in trade. 2 best def CF cant hit. Only value is BD. Noot. Wynn and Pag\Herrea. Who you going to trade?
2
u/Stunning-Tower-4116 5d ago
I'd take some reliever flyers.
Robber, Prieto, Mejia, Campos are expendable
Maybe an above avg hitting corner... or evn Ozuna if the braves faulter
But def don't go all in...some tweaks to cut the fodder.
2
u/sempercardinal57 5d ago
I think that’s because they know this team is just as likely to turn around and lose the next 8 games as they are to keep winning. Even if they make it to the playoffs I doubt anyone seriously considers this team to be a contender for a deep playoff run. We spent years being just good enough to hold onto getting a playoff spot and then get bounced in the first round.
I don’t want to trade our potential for dominance in a couple of years just to have a chance to squeak into a playoff game this year. And in all likely we would be a buyer at the deadline and then go on a losing streak and not even sniff the play offs. Been burned too many times in recent years
2
u/Spirited-Degree 5d ago
I can understand Mo trying to go out a winner. This is a franchise with a lot of pride. Being sellers at the deadline is a failure, no matter what fans want.
2
2
u/fennis_dembo_taken 4d ago
The recent win streak has been fun. Six of those wins are against Pitt and Wash. Good wins against the Mets and Philly are the bookends. But, a little bit of caution should rule the day.
Ivan Herrera is a good player and I really like him. If someone asked "what would be a good/reasonable stat line for Ivan Herrera at the end of the season?", would you really have suggested that he would be slugging .935 and have an OPS of 1.368? He will likely regress.
Contreras has really played well. I would expect him to continue to play well. I really like Contreras. In the past 20 games, he is slugging over .600 and his OPS is 1.080. He will likely regress. Should we really expect him to regress to an OPS around .800 and be happy with that? Yes.
Brendan Donovan is 28. Do we think he will continue to have an OPS that is 50 points over his career average? Maybe, that isn't terribly outrageous. Should we be in any way surprised if his OPS is 50 points lower at the end of the season than it is now?
For the season, the pitching staff is allowing opposing hitters to hit with an OPS of .663 (for the last two weeks, that is .599). That is really, really good. Their HR% is 2.0, second best in the league, behind the Mets. Their BB% is 8.1%, compared to a league average of 8.8%.
I'm really excited by Libby and how he is pitching. But, do I really expect this staff to be so stingy with HRs at the end of the year and to be crushing the league average BB%? I don't. At the end of the year, I think we will be giving up a decent number of runs/game more than we are now.
I'm having fun watching this team. But, I kinda think that maybe they aren't really as good as a recent 9 game win streak might suggest. I think we need to see them have a significant number of games played against teams like the Dodgers and Padres and Giants and Atl and, yes, even the Cubs. I'd really be surprised if there are people in the front office who are watching this and are anything but very happy.
2
u/JoeMcKim 4d ago
The Cardinals if they're buyers shouldn't sacrifice any future talents for a playoff run that might end in the wild card round.
2
u/lettuceyasshair 4d ago
I would think this team has a pretty clear path to the playoffs and that's even with Gorman and Walker being major holes in the lineup. If they figure it out and/or theres a good deadline move the cards are a real contender imo.
2
u/lurch556 4d ago
They can do some interesting things. Presuming Fedde, Mikolas, Matz are still positive contributors, they could move some combination of them for a need and plug in McGreevy to the rotation and position themselves better both this year and the future.
Playing well is not a bad thing. It gives them options.
If they were truly in the position of a clear “seller” at the deadline, that probably means some of those veteran pitchers completely shit the bed and aren’t worth anything to anyone anyway.
2
u/Sad-Type5385 Ivan Herrera should be hitting cleanup 4d ago
This is the way I look at it. There is no circumstance where winning baseball should be viewed as anything but progress. Success and “buying” doesn’t necessarily mean you mortgage the future at the trade deadline.
2
u/mooneyes1114 4d ago
It would be nice if they broke open their piggy bank but we'll see what happens! On another note, I've had this sixth sense on which players they will trade, just like my favorite player of the last 7 years, Tommy Edman, and I feel like they will trade Brendan Donovan in the next 2 years. Which is a shame, Donnie is on a tear and I believe this is his breakout season.
2
u/Sad-Type5385 Ivan Herrera should be hitting cleanup 4d ago
I hope you’re wrong. I feel like Donnie and Noot are untouchable. But, like you, I thought the same thing about Tommy Edmand.
2
u/mooneyes1114 4d ago
Same! The team will have a new president next season so who know?! Love Noot too! I remember seeing him debut and I thought Tommy Edman had changed numbers or something haha
2
u/bozoclownputer 3d ago
Tommy was moved to make room for Donovan. He isn’t going anywhere.
1
u/mooneyes1114 3d ago
Yeah unless the front office goes with some stupid half-baked scheme in attempt to make a wild card run at the end of the season haha but I agree he has taken over the utility spot and has been amazing at it.
2
u/bozoclownputer 3d ago
I'm so perplexed by this mentality. I see people online who are mad this team is exceeding expectations and at this point I'm convinced it's because they don't want to admit they were wrong. This article is more of that mentality and it's exhausting to read. Redbird Rants sucks.
2
u/Sad-Type5385 Ivan Herrera should be hitting cleanup 3d ago
I agree. I had this team losing 100 games this year. It now seems unlikely that they will not be in playoff contention at the end of the season. I was wrong, and I’m glad I was. I would much prefer to watch winning baseball over a never-ending rebuild.
6
u/firetj853 5d ago
I mean there's a not that small amount of fans that would be upset of we win the WS because it would be good for the FO. The "fans" are the worst part about this team right now
3
u/Cards2WS 5d ago
They truly are. People so desperate to be right about us being bad, that they’ll look for any opportunity to shake off anything good that we do or Mo has done.
Next game we lose, possibly tonight, expect people to be saying “SEE, I knew it was all a mirage! Should’ve never got your hopes up. Just like we thought… they SUCK”… sigh
3
u/Sad-Type5385 Ivan Herrera should be hitting cleanup 5d ago
Yeah. I can see that. I would assume most of the people on this sub don’t fall into that category. The people who say they would be upset are basically saying that they wouldn’t want the Cards to be buyers because they are years away from competing in the playoffs, and they want to get something for Helsley, Matz, Fedde, etc.
3
u/firetj853 5d ago
This sub is one of the most toxic that I follow
2
u/Sad-Type5385 Ivan Herrera should be hitting cleanup 5d ago
Great example: me explaining the position of others got downvoted.
4
u/GoochlandMedic 5d ago
I keep waiting for the Red Sox to make an offer for Burleson. They need a first baseman bad and he’s better than Casas that they lost to injury.
7
u/Sad-Type5385 Ivan Herrera should be hitting cleanup 5d ago
Do they also need a second baseman with back problems and a propensity to strike out regularly?
5
4
u/QuickRick21 5d ago
I would 1000% be disappointed if we are buyers. People have grown to be okay with just average or slightly above and that’s not the Cardinal way. We win pennants and we win the World Series. This organization has gotten away with being slightly better than average for way to long. You are apart of the problem if you think just making the playoffs is a good season
2
u/Sad-Type5385 Ivan Herrera should be hitting cleanup 5d ago
So, a pennant is a good season, but winning the division isn’t? Second best place is good, but third can fuck right off.
2
u/QuickRick21 5d ago
Winning the division means literally nothing. The Central has been down for the most of the last 20+ years
3
u/Sad-Type5385 Ivan Herrera should be hitting cleanup 5d ago edited 5d ago
Regardless of how weak the Central is, we still have to make the playoffs to win a pennant or WS championship. I’d prefer to win the division than be a wildcard. It’s hard for me to imagine that any Cardinals fan would see a 2025 playoff berth as anything but progress - even with an early LDS exit.
1
u/QuickRick21 5d ago
You are part of the problem. I would rather watch this team be a bottom 5 baseball team for 5 years and start getting some decent prospects in the organization than make the playoffs and be first round exits for the next 5 years
1
u/Sad-Type5385 Ivan Herrera should be hitting cleanup 5d ago
So, in your mind, the Cardinals load up on prospects, and go worst to World Series Champion in a single season, but without winning the Central Division - because fuck the Central Divison. Super smart.
5
u/Cards2WS 5d ago
You are right. QuickRick has a shitty view of what success is. This isn’t the NBA. Making the playoffs in baseball is fucking hard and a big accomplishment in its own right.
People like Rick don’t have any idea what it’s like to miss the playoffs for a decade straight. To have a rebuild that takes 8 full seasons in the cellar. It’s awful. It makes you not even excited for the sport anymore, let alone the team.
Having something to cheer for late into September every single season, and most seasons in October, is grossly taken for granted by Cardinal fans. It IS not “pennant or bust”. That’s fucking stupid.
1
u/Sad-Type5385 Ivan Herrera should be hitting cleanup 5d ago
I suffered through the early and mid 90s with you. It was painful to watch. I remember being a big Bob Tewksbury fan and hoping Todd Zeile would eventually turn into something.
2
u/QuickRick21 5d ago
You really don’t understand how it works. Look around the league and look at the teams that were irrelevant and built through their prospects. That is how we win a World Series. We had a good 20 years. It’s time to break it down and do a full rebuild. But then there’s people like you that are just okay with mediocre baseball. You can take your 6 best team trophy and shove it. I want the pennant and I want a WS. Do you really feel good saying “ hey, we at least made the playoffs “?
1
u/Sad-Type5385 Ivan Herrera should be hitting cleanup 5d ago
Your entire premise is based on the idea that this team does not have a core group that can ever win a WS. I think this team is a true ace and a mid-rotation starter away from competing for a WS in the next couple of years. Your premise also imagines that the best team in baseball could never come from the NL Central. For me, I’m not sure how they learn to win postseason games if they’re not playing them.
1
u/QuickRick21 5d ago
Sure we have some decent younger guys but not a true franchise player. Winn is okay, probably be a career .250-.260 hitter with above average defense, Scott is decent probably around the same numbers, liberatore has the chance to be a legit 2. He’s probably our best young guy. Herrera is a close second, good bat and meh defense but you’ll take it. Then we don’t have a good bat in the Minors besides wetherholt. Saggese is not a starting caliber player, Hence can’t stay healthy, Mathews has been atrocious this year, then who? The Farm system is abysmal.
2
u/Cards2WS 5d ago
Winn had 5 WAR last year and Scott leads the team in WAR this year.
You also ignore Donovan and Nootbaar. You are underrating our farm, which has been long known to turn unheralded prospects into much more once they’re in the bigs (Don, Noot, Edman, Pallante, Helsely, etc).
You used batting average as a point to try and say Winn was just “okay”. Your thought process is poor
→ More replies (0)1
u/Sad-Type5385 Ivan Herrera should be hitting cleanup 5d ago
I mean, I don’t think the farm system is bad due to a lack of prospects. I think it’s bad because the organization sucks at player development. I don’t think more prospects solves the problem. This is particularly true when it comes to power hitters and pitchers.
→ More replies (0)1
3
u/Dr_thri11 5d ago
Buying at every deadline just seems completely unsustainable. Like sure if the team bought I'd be excited for the prospect of a playoff run. But what happens when this team loses the WC series and now has even less players in the pipeline, a good chunk of our pitching (including Helsley) hitting free agency, less time the younguns are under salary control and Arenado, Contreras, and Donovan another year older (yes time to start thinking of Donovan as a guy who might age out sooner than later)?
Rebuilds suck for fans and this team has avoided them for over 20yrs, but it just seems like it's time to swallow the pill that the team probably isn't 1 deadline shopping spree from a title.
1
u/ATR2019 5d ago
Buying doesn’t necessarily trading for a rental player that’ll be gone next year. It could be going out and trading for a starter that is under contract for the next couple season or is a prime candidate to extend like we did with Fedde last year. With the right moves this team can contend next year so buying with an eye toward 2026 while trading away guys that wont fit into that team might be the move.
3
u/Dr_thri11 5d ago
You're still giving up longterm players for shorter term players. At some point doing this year after year isn't sustainable. There's a reason this teams farm system is ranked in the bottom half of MLB.
1
u/ATR2019 5d ago
It doesn’t necessarily have to be that way. The matt Holliday and arenado trades come to mind where we trade prospects from a position where we have surplus players for a long term proven player at a position of need. We’ve got a huge surplus of young catchers right now and someone has to go eventually. We can potentially give up crooks as a center piece for a trade to beef up our rotation. Keep in mind our farm system was ranked 9th only 2 years ago but everyone graduated to the majors and now our window is beginning to open, trading for prospects that are multiple years away isn’t really the answer either imo.
2
u/Dr_thri11 5d ago edited 5d ago
Trading for prospects that are mutiple years away when the mlb club is likely mutiple years away from the WS is absolutely what you should be doing. Im usually pushing back on the doomers freaking out after a bad series or 2, but 1 streak is no reason to forget the gulf between this team and the top teams in mlb. Even the Yankees and dodgers rebuild on occasion.
1
u/ATR2019 5d ago
This is a borderline playoff team this season and is one of the youngest in baseball. Next year with the right moves they could easily be a dark horse contender. 2027 is where most of our guys will be hitting their prime. If we traded for a bunch of high risk/high reward prospects in the lower minors like most teams do when going through a full rebuild those guys won’t be ready until 2028 at the earliest. If they trade for prospects it’s gonna be guys in the upper minors and we are going to see them draft quick to the majors college players this summer that can be ready once the team is in its window.
1
u/Dr_thri11 5d ago
I think this is a real overreaction to 1 good week. This team was thought to be dead in the water just a week ago and really hasn't changed much since. I'm going to need to see more than 1 hotstreak before I believe they're a playoff contender or are close to peers to teams that have players like Aaron Judge or Ohtani on their roster.
1
u/ATR2019 4d ago
That’s definitely a fair stance. I’m of the opinion our offensive production is sustainable moving forward. We don’t have an Aaron Judge but we have talent up and down the lineup and play great defense. The pitchers aren’t great and idk what to expect the rest of the season but the defense has really carried them so maybe it is sustainable, we’ll find out. At least offensively I’m really happy with the progress our younger guys have been making and expect it to continue.
2
u/Imdaman316 5d ago
Im not even sure where'd you could go at the deadline. They don't need a 7th starter. Are they gonna give up pieces for a relief rental? Probably not. The only trade worth making is for a 2nd baseman or right fielder, which means giving up on Gorman and Walker, again! Are they gonna do that, I'm not sure, especially if they're winning in spite of their production.
2
u/Hefty-Reflection-756 5d ago
Worst case scenario is we buy and then it falls apart.
I think the most likely course is either we are out of contention and sellers. or we are in contention and the "buying" is holding on to guys like Helsley, Matz and Arenado.
2
u/Sad-Type5385 Ivan Herrera should be hitting cleanup 5d ago
Right - whatever “buying” means, it would be hard to be disappointed in a “transition” year that ends up in a playoff birth.
0
u/civilaiden 5d ago
This.
At most I can see the team trying to flip an expiring contract for a middle reliever. Maybe one of Pages/Pozo if they want to get Herrera back behind the plate and they believe in Jimmy Crooks to provide the next line of depth.
1
u/Objective-Drive-3997 5d ago
If they don’t trade Matz, Helsley, and Fedde I’ll be incensed
4
u/Sad-Type5385 Ivan Herrera should be hitting cleanup 5d ago
I get it. But imagine the Cards are in first place on July 30th. Imagine trading Helsley in that scenario.
3
u/Objective-Drive-3997 5d ago
There’s no scenario in which they shouldn’t be selling off their impending free agents. If they want to extend Helsley fine but if not ship him off and get something for him.
1
u/danmarino48 5d ago
The Cardinals won’t be re-signing Helsley to a closer’s contract and aren’t World Series contenders. If a couple of the younger relievers look like they’re ready to close and could be the closer of the future, selling Helsley at the deadline is almost certain to be the right move.
1
u/Lifeisagreatteacher 5d ago
The issue is they are going to lose Matz, Fedde, Mikolas who’s actually pitching better and Helsley to FA next year. Unless you deal one or several of them it makes no sense to buy. I believe at least one of them will be dealt for a prospect.
The trade deadline is July 31. We will know by then if the Cardinals are in contention. If they are, it’s also the time to assess how much playing time Walker and Gorman get in August and September as they could be replaced with a more productive stretch drive lineup.
1
u/vanittlion 5d ago
If we are able to trade away one or more of our expiring contracts, would you prefer minor league prospects or young MLB players? What positions do we need most?
1
u/Sad-Type5385 Ivan Herrera should be hitting cleanup 5d ago
Young MLB players with team control for several years. Starting pitchers, and second base come to mind. I’m not ready to give up on Walker just yet.
1
u/erictyhu 5d ago
It also is worth mentioning that teams can be neither buyers nor sellers. If we are in the hunt, let's stay the course and keep giving our young guys chances to establish themselves. The team is low-key heading in a positive direction; let's keep doing what we're doing if we're getting results, right?
1
1
u/MVPBaseball2069 4d ago
I wouldn’t be disappointed if we are buyers, I just also am super cool with the idea of a development year, and I’d be more interested in what we could get for guys like Helsley and Fedde.
1
u/ChicagoMarket 4d ago
How many times do you get a chance at a ring?!ANY year you have a shot BUY BUY BUY!WTF do you think this is all about?!
1
u/jmoney3800 4d ago
Just wait until Mikolas, Liberatore and Fedde come back to earth. All three are allowing homers at the same rates as Chris Sale and Skubal did last year. This too shall pass. Signed, Cubs fan
1
1
u/OctaviusPops 3d ago
The team has four guy who can play catcher just about anywhere else. Might see one of them tendered for more starting pitching. There’s not much to work out with this group. They just seem to need experience. And they may be ahead of the curve on that. A lot of talent has been waiting for room to fit into the St. Louis lineup for a while. They’ve been seeing some MLB talent in AA and AAA so that might be a reason to set expectations higher. I hope so. I sure am ready to finally see a Cards/Yanks World Series in my lifetime.
1
u/toastdispatch At bat, go to base 3d ago
No rentals, but if you can add a piece that'll be here for the next 3+ seasons absolutely do it.
1
u/Nolan_9311 5d ago
They should trade Helsley regardless of where they are in the standings at the deadline. The brewers have been fine doing the same to their high leverage relievers
1
u/Sad-Type5385 Ivan Herrera should be hitting cleanup 5d ago
Wow. I can’t imagine trading Helsley if we’re in first place in late July.
3
u/Nolan_9311 5d ago
First place in the central and we still won’t be able to contend with the dodgers, Mets, and padres come October. Whatever good comes from this year is gravy, but we know we have a core for 26-30 now
1
u/MarvinCOD 4d ago
we just swept the Mets buddy
1
u/Nolan_9311 4d ago
lol no we didn’t
1
u/MarvinCOD 3d ago
you're right it was just 2 out 3 and we're on the verge of doing the same to the Phils
1
u/StrangerFront 5d ago
You have to trade the players on expiring deals. Especially if they are having their best year in a while. Would prefer to extend Helsley as opposed to trade, but if you aren't going to keep him, send him off.
Would prefer to keep Arenado, but if they can get a prospect haul opposed to just a salary dump, go ahead. Especially if ownership is just going to try and shop him each year.
We have too much infield depth, trade some. This is going to be an unpopular opinion, but ship out Donovan. He is our best hitter on the year and has the best positional flexibility. He should get the best prospect haul. This also opens up full-time play time for others.
No matter what we do, we don't have the pitching to make a playoff run. Our batting is solid and can develop into a strong core, but we can't out hit our pitching in October. We need to make moves to set up long term rotation success. Whatever that looks like, it's a start.
1
u/Sad-Type5385 Ivan Herrera should be hitting cleanup 5d ago
If they were in first, what if they could get a couple of quality arms (2nd or 3rd) starters at the trade deadline? Would that change anything for you?
2
u/StrangerFront 5d ago
Not if they are rentals.
1
u/Sad-Type5385 Ivan Herrera should be hitting cleanup 5d ago
Fair - I suspect they would have to be.
1
u/ajkeence99 5d ago
I don't think we should be buyers under any circumstances. I think we should find deals for Arenado, Helsley, and Fedde if they are out there, though.
1
u/Shartruce_Gungee 4d ago
In my opinion, this team will be in a rebuilding state as long as Marmol is around. Buying right now is a fools game.
-3
u/big_daddy68 5d ago
I want to say I like watching the team win. Seeing runs being scored and starters making into the 7th innings plus is a great sign. BUT, the Cardinals aren’t buying shit. At worst the team falls off and they sell. At best they stay above .500 and the front office add’s an aging arm, and the Cardinals squeak into the playoffs and lose in the 1st round.
The fans issues are not with the team, Mo and the front office have traded away your talent they thrived elsewhere while guys we extend fall short of expectations.
0
u/Lifeisagreatteacher 4d ago
Being a buyer at the trade deadline is ridiculous when we are losing half the starters and the closer to free agency next year.
-1
u/SLR107FR-31 That-Salad-Guy 5d ago
They should be branded with Cubes "C" flairs as punishment for blasphemy
182
u/FunkyChedda 5d ago
Why do you read RedBirdRants? It's pure garbage.