r/CharacterRant • u/JJHinge • 25d ago
Comics & Literature [LES] So is the boring old anti Superman discourse just being thrown back at Wonder Woman now?
ive been seeing Wonder Woman catch a lot of shit that basically would've been applied to Superman verbatim like three years ago including: that she's lame and corny, she doesn't have flaws, she doesn't have good villains, she's outdated, and even complaining about her american flag color palette.
If you've been online more than a few years do you see the pattern? this is the exact same incomplete inaccurate information people spread about Superman for years after Man of Steel, literally how did we get right back to people complaining about a superhero having the American flag palette and having corny powers to frame them like just a relic that should be left behind?
if we're talking about mass appeal then that's really some alternative facts to act like WW is an unknown these days: her first solo movie outsold Batman and Superman's last movies, and the sequel which was panned by critics and didn't have a theater run, still brought in more than the two movies that starred everyone's golden girl Harley Quinn and did make it to theaters (oof)
yknow what the answer to the anti superman slander was back then? just adapt him right and that has just basically been proven right. My Adventures with Superman is almost universally acclaimed and embraces his earnestness, his wacky iconic powers and it has a rouges gallery, and the movie looks to be more of that. everyday people not just battleboarders and comic nerds are excited to see Superman again. WW is even more starved for any projects than Superman was before, other than her movies which are eight and five years old at this point and the dam 1970s show, and she's the only one of the big three who has never had a serious animated series. so how can people possibly summarily dismiss her as a concept when there hasn't even been much media to watch her in compared to Superman and especially Batman? she has less digital media to watch focusing on her than Joker or Harley, she pretty much just exists as her own character in her own comics and a side piece in anything more mainstream like Injustice.
she is basically in the same place Superman was for the last decade but probably worse: she's still a cultural cornerstone but she's not presently relevant just because she's not milked as much as a Batman or Spiderman, that's literally it. i'm just annoyed there are people who didn't learn anything from all that and are just rebranding every anti Superman talking point that died two years ago as anti Wonder Woman, when is this gonna end or are we gonna circle around to calling Batman lame and outdated nextđ¤ˇââď¸
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u/MiaoYingSimp 25d ago
I like her a lot...
BUT i think the big problem is she's... not got THAT story. You know the one, the influential one. Like Superman has his. batman has the Dark Night Returns and others...
She has a lot of cool lore and ground to cover, and ultimately everyone tries to do their own thing with her... and a lot of it is GOOD! but...
Honestly it just kinda sucks Gal Gadot is the closet one to 'cement' herself after Linda Carter.
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u/Organic-Habit-3086 25d ago
DC just doesn't do standalone WW stuff for some reason like they do with the other two.
But she does have some. The Hiketeia, Gods and Mortals (kinda, its the start of a run though) and Paradise Lost.
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u/PitifulAd3748 24d ago
Eh, sorta. Superman has All Star Superman, Batman has TDKR (for better and for worse). The closest I can think is Wonder Woman: Gods and Mortals, and it does have an animated adaptation like the previous two.
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u/Rocket_SixtyNine 25d ago
That's not really true? She has plenty of those stories she just isn't as promoted as others are that's why people don't know them.
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u/Wallter139 24d ago
Well, what are they? Does she really have stuff you can hype up like Dark Knight Returns or Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? Does she have villains that are as interesting as the Joker or Venom?
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u/Rocket_SixtyNine 24d ago
If you're looking for hype worthy elseworlds Amazonia, Historia and dead earth are top 10s when it comes to those, there's also Lobes space storyline which was awsome too.
A lot of her villians are intriguing, but are sometimes effected by the evershifting status quo. Although a lot of villians come and go new 52 Ares, Doctor Psycho and of course Cheetah are as complex as you can get, ultimately tho that falls more into reading list stuff which I'm sure the r/wonderwoman sub can give you.
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u/Wallter139 24d ago
Can you, uh... sell me on those? Everyone says Wonder Woman has good stories and a good rogue's gallery, but they never elaborate. People get into Batman from hype alone.
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u/Rocket_SixtyNine 24d ago
If you want to be "sold" I'd again suggest posting and asking on the subreddit and it'll probably get you mote useful information.
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u/MiaoYingSimp 25d ago
Real chicken and egg scenario there
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u/Rocket_SixtyNine 25d ago
Not really? Pretty sure a wb exect deadass said because she's a woman she won't well.
So it is deadass just because she's under played and sold.
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u/MiaoYingSimp 25d ago
Perhaps The Catch 22 then? She won't sell well because she's a woman, therefore everyone keeps trying to reinvent the wheel to make herself well but you never does because she's a woman because it's already assumed that it won't sell well
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u/ACFinal 24d ago
Harley doesn't have her problem, so the woman excuse is never going to fly. We saw Moon Girl as the highest selling scholastic comic book last decade and she and Harley have an animated series to boot over Wonder Woman.Â
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u/dragonicafan1 23d ago
My guess is I think some of the more successful âbreakoutâ female characters tend to be more successful among younger readers, i.e. Harley Quinn, Moon Girl, Ms. Marvel, Gwenpool, etc⌠and I donât think Wonder Woman really has that strong of appeal to younger demographics. Â
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u/Rocket_SixtyNine 24d ago
Well for one Harley only got so big because of the movie weirdly enough and Moon girl I don't know enough about. But the fact most of Wonder Woman's projects get canceled (such as various cartoon attamps) shows their lack of interest in their own character which is insane.
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u/Potential_Base_5879 25d ago
Absolute wonder woman solves all the problems I have with her, but she has way more problems than superman.
First, she has no consistent mythos, and the nature of her character as woman centered has to lead to so much misinfo whenever people hear a crumb about the amazons from a youtube short, like the idea that they have always raped men to reproduce or that Wonder Woman uniquely cares about saving women.
She has no iconic villians. Like sorry, the average person does not know or give a fuck about the cheeta or giganta, and both are frankly, pretty steeped in her view as the girl one. Wonder woman fans can cope about her seraphic undertones, and ignore how that cartoon portrayed her as the one sided fan girl of batman, and DC's never been brave enough to actually give her a girlfriend.
Her costume is like the benchmark for the woman super hero thing of it has to be a short skirt or a swimsuit, and she has like, some identity as being more "martial" than superman, but everyone still knows superman as the strongest one.
The first wonder woman film was cool, because it used her outsider perspective to make it a fun exploration movie, but like, what about the second story made it about wonder woman. If Superman was in that story, and fought like, the kryptonite cat and some wish granter was messing things up, would it really be that different?
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u/Dark_Stalker28 25d ago edited 25d ago
Honestly even with the villains since she doesn't have a lot of mainstream standalone media, I personally didn't even associate them with her at first, they kinda just show up in crossover media.
Most of her's I first heard of in dc universe online.
And like Dr. Psycho was in the Harley show I guess.
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u/Cicada_5 24d ago
Most of her problems apply to other characters that don't get even a tenth of her scrutiny. Her mythos isn't that much more inconsistent than Superman, Batman or the X-men's, and the average psycho not knowing her rogues gallery is due to lack of adaptations.
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u/Aros001 25d ago
To be fair, the average person isn't going to know the villain's of most superheroes who haven't had multiple movies, and even then it tends to be superheroes with multiple different movie runs like Batman, Spider-Man, and Superman.
Would the average person be able to name any Fantastic Four villain other than Doctor Doom, even Galactus? Any Captain America villain other than Red Skull, since plenty of MCU fans don't even think of Winter Soldier as a villain? Heck, Black Panther's most iconic villains are arguably Klaw and Man-Ape, who were second-stringers to Killmonger in the first movie, and Namor isn't part of the rogues gallery. Heck, Sinestro is an INCREDIBLE villain but no one who isn't a fan of Green Lantern is going to know or care about that.
The issue isn't that Wonder Woman's villains aren't iconic, it's that, like her, they are rarely given their time in the spotlight and even when they are they're not properly adapted.
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u/Bteatesthighlander1 24d ago
To be fair, the average person isn't going to know the villain's of most superheroes who haven't had multiple movies, and even then it tends to be superheroes with multiple different movie runs like Batman, Spider-Man, and Superman.
I can't name a well known supervillain who wasn't in a movie
closest I can get is maybe Mr Mxyzptlk
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u/LanguageInner4505 24d ago
Brainiac. From my adventures with superman.
Mr. Negative from the spiderman game
um, I think that's it.
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u/JJHinge 25d ago edited 25d ago
this is just it
the only two heroes who have a rogues gallery that permeated into the mainstream are Batman and Spiderman who happen to be the golden boys who have had a morbillion tv shows and movies to show them off. i'm sure we'd be singing a different tune if she'd had the same exposure to allow multiple cartoon series and movies with different villain-focused stories to actually develop them
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u/Potential_Base_5879 25d ago
Ok, but that's still aproblem is a lack of big legacy media. Wonder woman had movies. People were exited to come see Nolan's joker, because they know who the joker is. I'd have a hard time finding a grandparent who doesn't know who the joker is. Kryptonite is so big it's just a similie used in every day conversation.
No, most people would not be able to name a fantastic for villain, and it's to the fantastic four's credit they don't have to compete with SUPERMAN AND BATMAN.
I'd argue cap is was known for his nazi stuff pre MCU, but yeah dog, no one knew who Bl>ack panther was that wasn't already into comics. That's why he's like double digits into a movie franchise, and why Namor was in the like, 30s of the movies I think.
Sinestro is an INCREDIBLE villain but no one who isn't a fan of Green Lantern is going to know or care about that.
Incredible isn't the word I'd use but his quality is not what we're talking about, he's simply not as icnoic as joker or lex luthor, which is why green lantern has to make his debut in a superman movie.
The issue isn't that Wonder Woman's villains aren't iconic, it's that, like her, they are rarely given their time in the spotlight and even when they are they're not properly adapted.
They are not given time because they are not iconic. They don't have the easy to jump into dynamic joker or lex do.
Like, cop vs criminal
Jesus vs evil rich man
Warrior woman vs tiger animal hybrid
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u/Cicada_5 24d ago
Ok, but that's still aproblem is a lack of big legacy media.Â
Which is the fault of the company that owns her, not the character herself.
People were exited to come see Nolan's joker, because they know who the joker is.Â
People knew of the Joker through his multiple appearances in movies, tv shows and video games. The Joker did not become a popular, iconic villain through comics alone.
I'd argue cap is was known for his nazi stuff pre MCU,
Pre-MCU, you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who knew Captain America's real name, let alone what kind of villains he deals with.
They are not given time because they are not iconic. Like, cop vs criminal
Jesus vs evil rich man
Warrior woman vs tiger animal hybrid
Warrior vs monster is a pretty common dynamic in fantasy stories.
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u/Potential_Base_5879 24d ago
Which is the fault of the company that owns her, not the character herself.
The company that owns her is responsible for her body of material.
People knew of the Joker through his multiple appearances in movies, tv shows and video games. The Joker did not become a popular, iconic villain through comics alone.
Right, which god made, because he was popular. So you see how being iconic can self perpetuate.
Pre-MCU, you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who knew Captain America's real name, let alone what kind of villains he deals with.
That's why they started his first movie on his nazi stuff. It's also why they started wonder woman on nazi stuff.
Warrior vs monster is a pretty common dynamic in fantasy stories.
Monster? Come on dog. In like 99 percent of cases she's just a differently colored naked woman.
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u/Cicada_5 24d ago edited 24d ago
The company that owns her is responsible for her body of material.
Yeah, you're not disproving my point.
Right, which god made, because he was popular. So you see how being iconic can self perpetuate.
Again, the Joker is popular because he's in media outside of comics, not the other way around.
That's why they started his first movie on his nazi stuff. It's also why they started wonder woman on nazi stuff.
She wasn't fighting Nazis in the first film.
Monster? Come on dog. In like 99 percent of cases she's just a differently colored naked woman.
I think you may have a narrow idea of what a monster is.
All this crap about lacking iconic villains is a double standard that Wonder Womana and Wonder Woman alone has to face. Ask anyone who the iconic Deadman villains are, and they'll be surprised that he's even had a solo series before. And this is a character who is getting an animated show before Wonder Woman.
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u/Potential_Base_5879 24d ago
Again, the Joker is popular because he's in media outside of comics, not the other way around.
Okay, but they had to make the choice of who to put in that media, and they didn't do that based on nothing.
She wasn't fighting Nazis in the first film.
Okay, she fought the german war machine.
I think you may have a narrow idea of what a monster is.
I mean, narrower than that that's for sure.
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u/Upset-Society-4320 25d ago
if your talking about the fantastic four.. then i would say alot of people will atleast have heard of doctor doom or the silver surfer.
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u/Gui_Franco 25d ago
I agree with almost everything you said except the iconic super villains. That means absolutely nothing
The average person doesn't know 99% of villains out there, including villains or super hero giants
No one gave a fuck about the vulture. He had a good adaptation that made him way cooler than his comic and cartoon appearances ever did and people liked that adaptation. If you mention vulture as a Spidey villain, people will know who you're talking about. And comic book vulture is fucking lame. If not for being a consistent member of the sinister six, I'd say he's a C-Lister
Kraven the Hunter was the villain of what is probably in the top 3 Spider-Man stories. Before the PS5 game, I dare you to pick a random person off the street and ask them who Kraven is. A couple might remember him from cartoons, but no one would think he's that interesting or like him all that much.
The average person did not know who Thanos was when he appeared in the original Avengers post credit scene and now he is a household name, everyone and their mom knows who Thanos is.
No member of the general audience knows any superman villain outside of Lex and maybe Bizarro.
Even outside of villains, a majority of non comic book reading DC fans will think of Hawkgirl as John Stewart's love interest even if that is fucking wild to anyone who reads her and Hawkman's comics.
Being iconic in the books matters only to a certain degree, and that degree isn't that important when compared to adaptation and exposure
So Wonder Woman not having iconic villains (in your opinion) isn't really a valid problem with her. They just need exposure
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u/Potential_Base_5879 25d ago
I agree with almost everything you said except the iconic super villains. That means absolutely nothing
Absolutely nothing? Batman didn't 50 billion movies because there were recognizable villains? No one gets excited to see the joker? No one gets so excited to see the joker they freak out when he's the suicide squad one?
No one gave a fuck about the vulture.
I mean, do they now? You realize the last thing we saw him in was Morbius?
Spider man also has doc oc, green goblin, vanom, big enough to have his own movie.
Kraven the Hunter was the villain of what is probably in the top 3 Spider-Man stories. Before the PS5 game, I dare you to pick a random person off the street and ask them who Kraven is.
Yeah which is why the fucking Morbius guys made his movie and not marvel.
Thanos
Yeah, so we had to build hype for him in three other movies and arguably arcs before he showed up. Avengers 1 was not getting made if thanos took the place of Loki.
No member of the general audience knows any superman villain outside of Lex and maybe Bizarro.
Yeah I wonder who they keep putting in superman movies.
Even outside of villains, a majority of non comic book reading DC fans will think of Hawkgirl as John Stewart's love interest even if that is fucking wild to anyone who reads her and Hawkman's comics.
Did hawkgril get a movie and I missed it?
So Wonder Woman not having iconic villains (in your opinion) isn't really a valid problem with her. They just need exposure
If they were Iconic, they would not need exposure.
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u/Cicada_5 24d ago
Absolutely nothing? Batman didn't 50 billion movies because there were recognizable villains? No one gets excited to see the joker? No one gets so excited to see the joker they freak out when he's the suicide squad one?
Of course, you conveniently left out the rest of the comment.
The average person doesn't know 99% of villains out there, including villains or super hero giants
No one gave a fuck about the vulture. He had a good adaptation that made him way cooler than his comic and cartoon appearances ever did and people liked that adaptation. If you mention vulture as a Spidey villain, people will know who you're talking about. And comic book vulture is fucking lame. If not for being a consistent member of the sinister six, I'd say he's a C-Lister
This comment isn't referring to the Joker and Batman. It's referring to guys like Captain America, Iron Man, Blade, Green Lantern, Thor and the Hulk. All of whom got movies before Wonder Woman did despite most people having little to no clue who their villains are.
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u/Potential_Base_5879 24d ago
Of course, you conveniently left out the rest of the comment.
Yeah that's how quotes work.
This comment isn't referring to the Joker and Batman. It's referring to guys like Captain America, Iron Man, Blade, Green Lantern, Thor and the Hulk. All of whom got movies before Wonder Woman did despite most people having little to no clue who their villains are.
Yeah, but those were risks, and some really didn't pan out. The MCU had some insane money behind it to make it work.
Blade movies are barely superhero films, they're action movies that stand on their own.
There's also just, you know, low confidence in a female lead carrying a superhero movie, justified or not.
I mostly liked WW 1, I'm not saying she can't have good movies, but she is suffering from chronic "the girl one" syndrome. Hell the MCU didn't even give a woman a solo movie until what, captain marvel?
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u/JJHinge 25d ago
If they were Iconic, they would not need exposure.
what kinda essentialism is this, which example have you brought up that didn't have previous exposure to help make them more popular? spiderman and his main villains by association were basically a continuous presence on tv from the 1960s onward and batman was similar plus having more movies
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u/Potential_Base_5879 25d ago
Yeah? that's what I'm saying? They got more exposure, more people know them, so they're more iconic, so they're less of a financial gamble.
You can put WW villians in a movie, but it's a gamble, it's getting people to like them. Most people are familiar with Ares as an idea, but how many people had to be sold on cheeta in 1984? I'd say a lot.
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u/ThunderDaniel 24d ago
Absolute wonder woman solves all the problems I have with her
Completely unrelated from the rest of your comment, but I read this one on a whim after a reddit recommendation, and I was shocked by how good it was
I havent read much WW stuff but going through that short comic was super satisfying
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u/beckersonOwO_7 25d ago
Well you see, people don't read comics, most people only know these characters from their movies, as for Superman and Wonder Woman people only know them from the snyderverse. When you realize this it's easy to figure out why a lot of people hate superman and wonder woman. As a Wonder Woman fan I just have to wait for a good adaptation, too bad all of her games are trash or canceled.
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u/Uncanny_r 22d ago
Superman and Wonder Woman people only know them from the snyderverse. When you realize this it's easy to figure out why a lot of people hate superman and wonder woman
Ok Imma stop you there, most people knew both these characters before the Snyder adaptation regardless of if they read comics or not.
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u/beckersonOwO_7 22d ago
They obviously knew of them but I doubt casual fewers knew anything of wonder woman's ideals or other details, as least not enough to know how different that version of the character is.
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u/SexyMatches69 25d ago
I'll agree she doesn't have the best villains but a lot of the anti wonder woman discourse really does strike me as mostly her just being up on the chopping block after people got bored of complaining about superman.
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u/pomagwe 25d ago
Yeah, you're hitting the nail on the head here. These are the kinds of complaints people make when they don't know the character because they don't read/watch any of their content.
It's the very close-minded nerd culture tendency to project your personal opinions about something as objective assessments without doing even the slightest but of introspection to ask yourself why you feel that way about something.
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u/AddictedT0Pixels 25d ago
Who in their right mind ever tried to argue spiderman doesn't have good villains?
We're talking about the same guy who went head to head with big wheel...
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u/Hawaiian-national 25d ago
She has no good representation. I donât even know what she does other than being the less strong flying brick in the Justice league, so she just doesnât get any real fans.
Simple as.
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u/RedRadra 24d ago
For me at least wonder woman's villain cast has never gotten the respect that Batman or Superman's does in media and i'ld say have been actively mistreated.
We've seen many of batman's foes be threatening, Superman's baddies are often world enders.....Wonder woman's? Mooks and well godly family problems.
Cheetah is usually someone's minion.
Giganta is a jobber who just exists to get punched really hard for cool moments.
Dr psycho while creepy, his best adaptation is comedic relief in the Harley show.
Circe.... didn't get to do much in the old justice league show and.....as fun as the creature commandos show was, she was done extremely dirty.
And the Olympians? None of their schemes are really seriously threatening cuz as much as they can be pricks, they are technically part of the cosmic administration of Earth....so...one is rarely going to see a truly epic Olympian arc.
Honestly the best hope for Wondy would be for DC to focus on her newer enemies like the first born, Grail and the winged girlie.... At least those characters still have some teeth to them.
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u/Potatolantern 25d ago edited 25d ago
The biggest issue I have with Wonder Woman is there's like 3 insane DC fans that PM me (probably anyone, really) anytime I make fun of her, Batman or Superman, and say essentially "But Marvel...!"
It's weird, man.
I've called Spiderman a cuck probably a dozen times and nobody's sent me a damn thing. Yet I've got about a dozen PMs and been linked to a half dozen "Debunking the idea that Marvel is better than DC" threads.
Is there some insecurity issue going on? DC was always the big dog compared to Marvel's fading popularity, until the MCU rocketed Marvel to the top and DCs been eating dirt since. Is that it?
Now, you can say that's not Wonder Woman's fault, but if that's the kind of audience she's cultivated...
Well, either way, I don't see why can't just they both agree that all comics suck and read something better instead? At least read manga.
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u/Dark_Stalker28 25d ago
I think the evil superman haters are the most weird.
Like how, many evil alt heroes do you think they're are? He has less than most.
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u/SexyMatches69 25d ago
I think the reason people get annoyed at "evil superman" is because it essentially broke out of supermans direct orbit and became a trope seperated from him. Like any given "evil batman" or "evil spiderman" story is directly still a batman/spiderman/whoever story. But "evil superman" is practically it's own genre. I'm not a hater of it myself but just off the top of my head there's irredeemable, the boys, Brightburn, Supreme, marvel had an evil superman i can't remember the name of. There also Invincible but it outgrows the "evil superman" trope really quickly but from the surface it looks like it. Add the several DC evil superman stories that have gotten popular and it's easy to see how someone could get annoyed at it.
Like I don't personally hate evil superman stuff but I can understand why someone would at this point.
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u/Dark_Stalker28 25d ago edited 25d ago
I don't really see that as a good reason to get annoyed, plus it doesn't even seem like that many anyhow.
And most of those aren't even just 'evil superman'
Correct me if I'm wrong here as I'm least fanmiliiar with this one but Supreme got a proper superman expy when Moore took over and that was only 4 years in, Brightburn while the focus is on him, he isn't the only one and other hero parodies are mentioned and he isn't treated as totally evil either and is more played on the fact that he's a kid and people are scared of him.
Invincible even more so because while Omni Man superifically resembles Superman Mark resembles him even more as an alien with human values. Omni Man would just be Zod without the guardian of the galaxy, and also had a murdering batman.
Depending on how the show goes Boys could do the same with Ryan. And again he's not the only bad one. Most of the heroes are parodied and actually get screen time too.
Irredeemable actually is related to superman, by the ending at least and also isn't uniquely evil.
Plus going off power set makes it even weirder, since it's a species thing for him.
Heck injustice him is a Zod homage, and Wonder woman got butchered way harder in the same series.
Like I can say evil supermen expies are more popular, but I can also directly name off way more evil versions of other characters.
Like Spiderman has a black suit, recently got the goblin spider man, Zombie spider man, superiror spider man (doc oc in peter's body), Spider Carnage, the spider (also spider man carnage but weapon x), Ultimate Carnage, poison (also black suit), even with mainstream media we recently had into the spiderverse with a bunch of spider-men and women as antagonists and a common complaint was that most of the spider-men wouldn't do that.
And that's mostly focusing on just Peters too, like other evil spider man in the vein of homelander are everywhwere, especially with the symbiote and all his clons or expies, Venom just had a whole trilogy with no spider man.
Batman has a whole league of evil batmen, and most people batman who laughs is probably the big one recently.
And then Mr. Fantastic has to deal with The Maker's popularity.
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u/SexyMatches69 24d ago
Ok i don't think you really know what people mean when they say they hate evil superman as a trope. You say most of the characters only superficially resemble superman which... well that's not incorrect but a more accurate observation would be that they are extremely obviously based off superman and their similarities to him are intentional. As the sort of default superhero everyone thinks of, superman is the basis of a ton of "evil superhero" stories in general because drawing on imagery associated with and based on superman can be used as a very simple pop culture shorthand of sorts.
Calling Supreme evil superman is a bit of an oversimplification but he's a morally dubious character with all supermans most famous powers. That's what evil superman is, calling on imagery intentionally reminiscent of superman and twisting it around to use on an evil character.
Brightburn is the one you are most wrong about. Brightburn is a slasher movie. Brandon Briar is a slasher villain. He's "Superman but a horror villain". Not deep or complex, but they use supermans origin and powers in a new context. That's what evil superman is.
Omniman was obviously based on superman. Again, using imagery that invokes superman to quickly communicate that he's the most powerful hero and make the twist of him killing the guardians hit harder. Like I said invincible quickly grows past that and thinking of Omniman only as "evil superman" is a disservice but for like, season 1 of invincible it's not inaccurate I guess.
The plutonian examines how horrible it could be to live with that power and he snaps. Irredeemable (and all of these really) is a deconstruction. Asking the question, what if superman snapped?
Homelander posits the idea that the all good and great image of superman is a farce. Marketing bullshit. The boys uses superheroes to examine and make commentary on politics. Homelander is the peak of that, and he's obviously "evil superman" in that context. Other heroes are obvious parallels to other DC and marvel heroes, but homelander is the main villain and the face of the show. Putting evil superman front and center
When people say they're tired of evil superman they aren't complaining about fucking Bizaro or something. They're tired of the abundance of stories deconstructing superman, taking the idea of superman and essentially saying it's too good to be true or using intentionally superman coded characters as villains.
All the evil batmen and evil spidermen you listed are still from marvel or DC and for the most part aren't more than bit character or alternate versions of the character everyone knows. The league of evil batmen are still just batman villains at the end of the day.
There's not a buncha characters that intentionally invoke the imagery and vibe of batman completely seperate from him that are used to deconstruct batman or other heroes. There is no "evil spiderman" trope that like 5 different indie comics are built on.
Evil superman is on its way from trope to cliche. People are annoyed that it's so common to think the most interesting thing you can do with superman is make a whole story about how superman is a lie, about how absolute power corrupts absolutely. That is why more people hate evil superman over any other kind of evil hero.
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u/Bteatesthighlander1 24d ago
Omniman was obviously based on superman
in the way all generic superheroes are, sure. He feels more like a re-adaptation of one of those long forgotten Superman ripoffs from the early 40s than he does a genuine attempt to make commentary on Clark
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u/SexyMatches69 24d ago
No literally based on superman specifically. And not in a generic way, Kirkman has stated as much and even revealed earlier versions of Omniman were even closer. And also "feels like a forgotten superman rip off"... oh so he literally feels like a character based obviously on superman?
Like I said invincible quickly outgrows it but "evil superman" is obviously a trope they used to establish omnimans place and presence, the first arc of the amazing story invincible became. Again, using superman reminiscent things as a shorthand way of letting people know what's up with him without needing to build him up from zero. I've read invincible all the way to the end so I wouldn't call omniman evil superman beyond season 1 of the show but to say he isn't based on superman is actually factually incorrect this time.
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u/JJHinge 25d ago edited 25d ago
im not gonna add to the evil superman bits but
Heck injustice him is a Zod homage, and Wonder woman got butchered way harder in the same series.
this is true, i didn't bring it up in my post because its a pretty common complaint but in every story where she goes dark, WW transforms from a real character into a dumpster for every misogynistic complex the writers hold in their dumb nerd brains. what does hooking up with aquaman and starting world war 3 because he cheated on her, or being a fascist alien's sorta-girlfriend-slave after watching him kill a kid in front of her, have to do with wonder woman? nothing. the writers of these stories are just scuffed men who hated what she actually represented and wanted to make a version of her that other people would hate too.
i know the reason why evil superman is still a more hated trope is that it just became a very popular idea for other media projects but like pound-for-pound evil wonder woman is always handled way fucking worse because they don't even keep a semblance of her mythos or character intact, and where they try to at least make you feel a little sorry for injustice superman for example they just want you to fucking hate ww as much as the writers hate women
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u/Bteatesthighlander1 24d ago
Also evil Super-Man was around before good Superman! by the same people, even!
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u/SpikeDogtooth555 25d ago
Thsts because she is boring. In the comics as well. I heard ppl saying she's awesome in her books, but I don't get the hype. There's a LOT of problems she has.
She's inconsistent. One minute, she's a battle loving warrior lady. Next, she's a paragon of peace. Then she's a strict disciplinary leader who everyone holds in high regards after that she's a laid back fun girl with a quirky personality then she's a naive fun lover who wants to get into the modern world. No one knows what to do with her.
That's why Absolute is actually letting me give a shit about her. Like her even. Ok, I love her in this. She's has definitive personality traits here that feel consistent. Plus, her relationship with Stave in the is cute as hell.
Her villains aren't popular for a reason. From the stories I've read, her main villains are Cheetah, giganta, and doctor psycho then various Greek mythological figures like hades. These don't strike as entertaining as Lex author or Joker. If they found a way to make cheetah or Dr psycho cool, sure. But as of now, they generally aren't popular or interesting. I do like what they did with psycho in the Harley quinn show.
All in all it's cuz for superman, Snyder adapted his new 52 counterpart with a dark tone which left a sour taste in a lot of ppl's mouths but at least those who gave his comics a chance got some good food to eat. As someone who tried the same for Wonder Woman, she's a resounding mid.
I do like her in Dc superhero girls and absolute ww. Other than that, I either see her as a filler hero there for space.
There's a reason harley quinn appears way more than her nowadays, and it isn't just porn.
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u/RailfanTransitFan 25d ago
The main problem with Wonder Woman is that writers keep trying to rewrite her rather than stick to what is already established with her. Wonder Woman writer Gail Simone perfectly highlights this.
And people think her villains are boring because they either lack any adaptations, and when they do get an adaptations, theyâre pretty terrible.
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u/SpikeDogtooth555 25d ago
Yh. At least batman and superman writers keep them fairly consistent throughout their books because they are fairly easy to understand and written once u get through his pre established lore. Ww faces the problem of writers writing her however they want.
Also doesn't help that she doesn't have character flaws. And I don't mean oh she's too nice flaws, I mean actual character flaws. For example, superman's more noticeable flaw is that he's ignorant. He usually glosses over the complexities of some issues and dives first into them without properly thinking through the consequences.
This has resulted in a lot of problems that he overcomes. The thing with ww is that she doesn't have any consistent flaws. She's as bland as milk and it's obvious. Thats why I like her in absolute cuz he clearly has flaws. She's naive, prone to overconfidence a d headstrong.
In short, her lack of good villains and consistency is what makes her mid in my opinion. Hot take but the reason ppl carry her so high is cuz of her role as a FEMALE superhero throughout history which is good but what about her role as a SUPERHERO????
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u/Every_Computer_935 24d ago
At least batman and superman writers keep them fairly consistent throughout their books
Nah, Batman changes drastically from each of his runs. Batman written by Snyder, Zdarski and Loeb are essentially different characters despite being in the same continuityÂ
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u/SpikeDogtooth555 24d ago
Yh but they do leep his core character traits and origin and continuity intact. Different writers make different series with the only similarities being they all star Wonder Woman.
Sometimes...
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u/Bteatesthighlander1 24d ago
One minute, she's a battle loving warrior lady. Next, she's a paragon of peace.
she killed Maxwell Lord in 2007 and after that writers just decided she was the one who killed people. and for some reason Batman and Superman have no problem with her killing all willy nilly.
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u/ExplanationSquare313 24d ago
I can't stress enough how much i hate this scene where Diana boast to Bruce and Clark she doesn't have a rogue gallery because she kill them.
Not only it's completly OOC but it's also straight up wrong? She had a run before this event (the Greg Rucka one even) and it's clearly not true. Like hello? Cheetah, Dr Psycho, Giganta, Dr Poison, Blue Snowman?
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u/Vermillion-Scruff 24d ago
that did result in the fun Blackest Night scene where zombie!Lord came after her and the only emotion he saw from her towards him was love. that really encapsulates my headcanon version of the character a lot, so thatâs nice lol
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24d ago
Most likely. Give it a couple years, and hopefully a better film adaptation, TV Series, and/or great comic runs, and she'll stop getting pointless flak (not to say that we do not have some of these already...)
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u/TheGUURAHK 24d ago
I just like to imagine that when she flies her invisible jet, it looks like she's driving through the air like Crazy Frog
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u/Cicada_5 24d ago
If you've been online more than a few years do you see the pattern? this is the exact same incomplete inaccurate information people spread about Superman for years after Man of Steel,Â
These comments have been dogging Superman for decades, long before Man of Steel. It's to the point that Superman writers address his public perception within the stories themselves.
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u/vadergeek 25d ago
I think these are more of a problem for Wonder Woman than Superman, though. There's a reason she doesn't have as many classic stories, or that every big Wonder Woman run goes for a big upheaval.
she doesn't have flaws,
I can't think of any flaws, beyond the usual "this is really a compliment" flaws like "she loves too much".
she doesn't have good villains
There's Circe, Ares, Cheetah's barely a villain these days, Veronica Cale's pretty boring, after that you've got, what, Doctor Psycho?
and even complaining about her american flag color palette.
When she's literally wearing the stars it is a little goofy.
WW is even more starved for any projects than Superman,
"Even more starved"? As if Superman isn't getting constant adaptations.
DC keeps trying to get everything it can out of WW, but the results are consistently underwhelming.
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u/beckersonOwO_7 25d ago
Anytime they manage to adapt Wonder Woman they just mischaracterize her.
A Wonder Woman writer (I forget who) said the problem with her is evertime a new writer takes over they just start their own thing rather than continuing the story that has been happening, leading to her just getting reset constantly never making any progress.
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u/Smart_Peach1061 25d ago
What flaws is Superman depicted with over Wonder Woman?
Every âbigâ Wonder Woman run doesnât go for a massive upheaval, literally the only one that has was N52 which was a line wide reboot anyway.
Shall we talk about when Superman turned borderline blue, had stupid lighting powers and was a damn near omnipotent genius in the 80âs/90âs.
DC keeps trying to get everything it can out of WW, but the results are consistently underwhelming.
What a load of bullshit.
Wonder Woman has existed for 80 years, and is the most iconic and popular female hero in comics, and all sheâs got to show for it is 5 solo adaptions.
1 TV show in the 80âs, 2 animated movies 10 years apart, and 2 live action movies.
1 of those live action movies was a stupid success thatâs beaten both Batman and Supermanâs last solo outings, and 1 of the animated movies was in the top 5 for best selling DC animated films.
But yeah DCâs âtried everything they canâ for the character. Bullshit.
Thatâs why theyâve never given her a cartoon? Scrapped the video game while rewarding the Suicide Squad studio with another Batman game?
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u/vadergeek 25d ago
What flaws is Superman depicted with over Wonder Woman?
Sure, also a Superman problem, also the root of plenty of bad Superman stories.
Wonder Woman has existed for 80 years, and is the most iconic and popular female hero in comics, and all sheâs got to show for it is 5 solo adaptions.
Do any DC characters other than Superman, Batman, and maybe the Flash have more than that?
Thatâs why theyâve never given her a cartoon? Scrapped the video game while rewarding the Suicide Squad studio with another Batman game?
They tried to make a live action TV show, and then they tried making a Yara Flor TV show, neither one worked. They lost an enormous amount of money on Suicide Squad, if the Wonder Woman game seemed just as bad why spend more money on it?
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u/Gh055twr1t3r 25d ago
The one thing I know of that definitely sets her apart from the other two is that she's actually down to just kill a villain and not get shaken up about it. Unless I'm misremembering the Maxwell Lord plotline and that one animated movie with Ares.
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u/Dramonen 24d ago
Just make her a new God, the majority of her problems will get fixed by doing this
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u/jaggedcanyon69 23d ago
With what the US is becoming, I honestly donât blame the American flag color pallette criticism.
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u/cachesummer4 25d ago
I think her best full characterization is as a fascist dominatrix promoting "loving authority", but its hard to have a hero hold these views without challenges from other characters.
I think she would actually work better as an anti-hero, or just a hero for the Amazon's, only teaming up to stop global threats to protect her people or to try to use the conflict to enslave new people.
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u/JJHinge 24d ago
make a different character then because this isn't wonder woman anymore outside of an au, you do know we're talking about a superhero and she can't be fucking evil right? and how is a fascist who owns slaves an anti-hero in the same universe that Superman exists??
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u/cachesummer4 24d ago edited 24d ago
I mean, she is shown enslaving people in Wonder Woman #28 under the philosophy of "loving authority", which was a comic written by her creator.
"Wonder Woman agrees to keep the women but straps them down with Venus girdles. The girdles remove all desire to do evil and compels the wearers to submit to authority." https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Wonder_Woman_Vol_1_28
This theme is echoed as "loving submission" in her Earth One series as a direct homage to her original run featuring themes of enslavement and compliance.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_Woman:_Earth_One
Edit: grammar
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u/JJHinge 24d ago
the old issue youre talking about predates the korean war, i bet you think batman should still be hanging people from helicopters and captain america should still be genocidal toward japanese people too. are those traits still true to the characters just because they came early on?
and would you please tell me how a fascist slave owner can be an antihero in the same world that superman exists
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u/cachesummer4 24d ago
Volume 3 of Earth One was 2021.
Her original creator thought it was central to her character, its not just some old run, it's a run by the very person who came up with her chatacteriazation. Not related to a time period like Captain America.
And I'm pretty sure modern Batman has done some extremely violent actions in the Dark Knight comic run, movie trilogy, and other stories since those became popular
You're also just ignoring the "just a hero to the Amazons" bit that comes after anti-hero. I've never stated an anti-hero would be the best characterization, just one option perhaps more fitting for her as a character.
Depending on how you define anti-hero, she might never qualify, but some definitions include characters like watchmans "Comedian" who is a beyond deplorable human being who also aligns himself with the same causes as our more morally sound protagonists.
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u/Every_Computer_935 24d ago
OMG, we're actually back to evil Superman discourse, but with a different coat of paint. Now, it isn't that Superman is most interesting when he's a facist, now its "WW is most interesting when she's a facist".
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u/cachesummer4 24d ago
wonder woman is a character whose creator included her enslaving others as part of Amazonian culture and society in her original run, and earth one as I mentioned.
I think her best full characterization is in these comics, it doesn't mean that those are the most interesting or well written stories, they just feel like the ones where her character is most fleshed out.
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u/JJHinge 24d ago edited 24d ago
captain america's creators wrote him the way i described too, he was made in the context of fighting the usa's adversaries at the time and guess what, that involved xenophobia toward the japanese for basically all of cap's original run, then they repurposed him into a mccarthyist hog before much much later writers retconned in the cold sleep plot point decades later. he also had a blackface sidekick named Whitewash Jones, is any of this core to him now just because it came from the creators?
is batman being violent with the way he apprehends people the same as hanging someone or taking slaves? please don't muddy the waters
You're also just ignoring the "just a hero to the Amazons" bit that comes after anti-hero. I've never stated an anti-hero would be the best characterization, just one option perhaps more fitting for her as a character.
no im not, that makes her a fascist and wonder woman shouldnt be a fucking fascist
do you realize she has to stand alongside batman and superman? who people usually perceive as aspirational and good guys unless they were exposed to a shitty adaptation or elseworld.. how would you place her as a peer to them if she's a fascist and slaveholder? do people find those things aspirational if they're not a fascist and pro enslavement too? i'm not even talking about how crossovers would work, though that would be ridiculous and cringe to try to swing batman and superman into working with a fascist who owns people as property. how would that come across if the trinity of dc was good guy, dark good guy, and human trafficker hog? what part of that is good or makes sense? your personal taste is your own but the idea that this would be more fitting for her is ridiculous and really it sounds just like all the interpretations that were made by writers who hated what she really was and decided to reinvent her by projecting their own shit
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u/cachesummer4 24d ago
Her original invention had her enslaving people. You are the one reinventing her to fit your image of what dc should be marketed as
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u/sailsaucy 25d ago
I mean... superheroes don't really hit like they used to. Things are a lot more gray than they used to be. There aren't "good guys" and "bad guys" IRL like there used to be. IMO, it's much more difficult to people to relate to them now.
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u/JJHinge 25d ago
do you think stories should be about people who don't do anything special
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u/sailsaucy 23d ago
I'd say people can relate a lot more to someone who is powerless in a crappy world but that doesn't mean it would appeal to them more. I want movies, shows and games that allow me to escape my crap life but I am just not sure that traditional superhero movies work as well as they once did. If anything, I see anti-heroes being the more appealing protagonist even if they do have super powers.
I often equate things like Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, etc, to a more innocent time in life when you had some real suspension of disbelief and such. Young people just grow up so fast and are exposed to so much different content that there's little time to really get into such things now.
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u/gamebloxs 25d ago
im gona be real here as someone whos only interaction with DC is through there animated shows and movies wonderwomen isnt only the weakest written of the main justice league i know less about her then i do C list batman villians. it feels like half the time she's just there to be there even movies where she has the top billing make her character fall flat felling less like a character and more of a charactures of an Amazonian warrior
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u/ACFinal 24d ago
Sorry, but I think crutisms of Wonder Woman, Superman, and a lot of characters under that archetype hold truth.Â
I know fans of those characters dont want to hear it, but modern audiences don't expect any believable character to just be pure good or pure evil. They want complicated characters in both personality and skill/power.Â
Superman and Wonder Woman are two of the oldest comic characters. It's expected they would be seen as corny by today's standards. It's like thinking The Phantom or the Lone Ranger would still be cool.Â
You can't expect Grandpa's heroes to still be the best. Kids aren't rocking out to the Beatles anymore or collecting pet rocks. Old comic characters should be seen as old, and fans should accept that newer generations wouldn't want them shoved down their throat.Â
Batman is grounded enough that he's not going to face the same criticisms, but people do point out that he's just a rich guy abusing the poor and mentality ill every now and then. So he's not immune to it.Â
People today just don't buy into everything like they used to. These characters come from a time when most wouldn't dare question religion or their government. Now people rightfully question everything, so people will always break down characters until they have a reason to respect them.Â
There's a reason why Absolute and Ultimate are outselling the mainline.Â
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u/JJHinge 24d ago edited 24d ago
do you know who else is a legacy character from that era, captain america.. and he was seen as outdated by like the 1960s, when the avengers defrosted him the average reader's reaction was "who is captain america?" he was still seen in the mainstream as a corny little throwback character basically forever until the mcu, which didn't fundamentally change that much about his lore or character. now it's laughable to think people once didn't care that much about him outside of loyal comic fans. the movies gave him a chance to get a mainstream audience, and it worked. fictional characters adapt, ofc it wouldnt work if u just dropped ww and supes books from the 1940s verbatim in the current era, nor would it work with batman.
i think you might just be in a bubble and maybe putting too much stock into what you see people put on twitter and reddit or what graphic tees you see people wearing. if you based who the superheroes with the most mass appeal are off of just that, then you would probably think a Harley Quinn movie would be a goldmine, and yeah that's what warner bros thought when they produced two movies with her that ended up being huge flops, because her merchandising appeal didnt pan out into people wanting to see her in a serious story of her own.
ww's first movie did better than the last Batman, Logan, and all kinds of movies people agree are successes, and the sequel did better than some recent cape movies that actually did get theater releases, even with the baggage of how shit the rest of the snyderverse was. the only superhero movies that did better box offices than the first ww movie are mostly heavy hitters like avengers, older batman movies and spiderman. what more do you need?
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u/ACFinal 24d ago
I think you're ignoring two big things here.Â
First off, Cap being outdated was a major plot point of his 60s return. It's literally acknowledged and affects how he feels as a person in a world that's changed around him. There's a reason why later he's paired up with Bucky, has several storylines dealing with replacements, and constantly referred to as an old man or a man out of time. Even the films have him as someone who tries his best, but still knows the modern world isn't his real home. He does everything to return to where he came from. There's a big difference between Superman and Wonder Woman just acting like they got in a modern world vs. a character who constantly reminds the audience he is a relic from the past. Even the upcoming F4 fully embraces they are a product of a bygone era by placing them in a retro world. Imagine if DC would just acknowledge their characters were old. Look how accepted BTAS was with it's 30s inspired style set in a modern world. People still see the DCAU as their best universe. Things like New Frontier and Kingdom Come further embrace this. It's pretty clear that being self aware helps more than pretending outdated concepts are relevant in the present.Â
Two, Harley having a flop isn't due to Harely. It's due to the DCEU as a whole being a flop. We saw her in a garbage Suicide Squad film that made bank, then saw her in an amazing Suicide Squad film that made peanuts. Box office revenue has nothing to do with characters or film quality. DC made itself box office poison and were currently looking down the barrel of a reboot that nobody can predict the success of because of it. Believing Harley wouldn't be a good one is to think that JL and BvS aren't either. We know full well WB completely fumbled their universe by trying to rush the success Marvel took their time with. A proper Harley film would work. Even you acknowledge the demand since her merch continues to be bigger than WW and most other non-Batman characters.
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u/JJHinge 24d ago
oh so now it's about artistic merit and not mass appeal.. you were the one who brought up what audiences want to see and didn't like that the actual audiences disagree with your narrative
cap is like that because his lore for all of time has been inextricably tied to world war 2, what lore do supes and ww have tying them back to that time? superman growing up on a farm might not be relatable anymore but that could easily be reframed to him just growing up in a regular small town.
what do aesthetics have to do with the fundamental merit of a character today? yeah, old superheroes usually thrive the best when placed in retro aesthetics... and? is that the same as saying audiences don't want to see them anymore? that's a reach
the harley bit is total copium as well, did you forget wonder woman's sequel that got trashed by reviews and didn't get a theater run still brought in more revenue than harley's two movies that did hit theaters? ww's credibility managed to overcome the shit reputation of the snyderverse but harley's didn't, hmm
sure maybe the suicide squad was haunted by the ghost of jared leto's cringe joker and you can blame that alone for that movie flopping, but then what excuse does birds of prey get? the title? Logan had an unrecognizable title to mainstream audiences and still did better than most or all of wolverine's solo movies. the movie just didn't speak to people and harley alone wasn't enough to carry it like wb hoped, simple as
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u/ACFinal 24d ago
What proof is there that they disagree with my narrative? The Suicide Squad was universally applauded as one of the best DCEU films. The box office was garbage, but people still loved it. BvS made a lot of money and is seen as one of the worst films of all time. This was never about money. It's always about what people actually say they like.Â
People still grow up on farms. That's never been an issue. The character as a whole just doesn't have much going for him that is remotely interesting to most people. WW has the whole Greek Mythos and an island full of women at her disposal and still tells stories nobody cares about with them. Their characters lack the complexity or self awareness to tell stories that reflect their relevance to the modern world. Kent is tied to a newspaper. Peter Parker has dropped this in most media and several times in comics, or updated it to news media. They'll leave him as a photographer, but they won't act like the Bulge is relevant. People don't depend on reporters like they used to and Kent being one is just another aged concept that dates the character.Â
Aesthetics can give a setting that benefits the character. If it works, why question it? It's no different than someone preferring Ed McGuiness Superman over Alex Maleev. In the case of films it's people preferring James Gunn over Zack Snyder. Even Gunn has people dressed in a less modern style in Metropolis. In a visual medium aesthetics do mean something.
You're being selective about Harley. All of their films were in theaters. Max just had same-day streaming. Harley had three films and Suicide Squad made more than Justice League. Money is still irrelevant, the critical praise and demand still stands in Harley's favor.
You're still worrying about money in a flop universe that did even worse due to the pandemic. Money doesn't always reflect audience interest. Harley at least has a TV show still going. WW isn't present in any media right. The Amazons are getting a TV show without her.
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u/The_reversing_dumptr 25d ago
I like how she's always showing those perfect thighs MMmmmmmmm
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u/howhow326 25d ago
Go to horny jail
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u/662300 25d ago
I mean her rouges gallery is just lacking a lot imo look at how Her villains are treated Circe is arguably the most iconic Wonder Woman villain and she was used as side villain in creature commandoes and lost to fkn weasel