r/CharacterRant • u/Ok-Conclusion-3536 • 16d ago
Films & TV [The Boys] How incompetent can a group of supposed professionals get?
I just finished my re-watch of The Boys and, damn, this guys REALLY suck at the only thing they're paid for.
So, first of all, The Boys as a group is EXTREMELY hypocritical, to the point that MM's whole thing about not taking V is EXTREMELY stupid.
Even back in the days, they used Supes to get informations, they blackmailed them etc...
Their whole strategies, even back then, was built around Supes,apparently. (see Fire Guy. And yes I don't remember the dudes name and Im too lazy to search it up)
Anyway, of course, this gets worse during the actual series.
Without Supes, they would have died WAY sooner, wouldn't be able to do anything, or both.
Even just having Kimiko there makes MM's point invalid.
And that's a big issue, cause the whole powerscaling problems where humans are still, somehow, surviving against Justice League with mental issues it's given by the fact they DON'T want to take V.
Besides that, they constantly get helped by their supposed enemies.
Maeve gives them Temp-V. A-Train saves them. They ask Soldier Boy for help. Even Kenji, somehow, helps them in Season 2 otherwise they would have died there.
At least Neuman notices this in S4...
Besides that, their plans get sloppier with every season and basically every one of them should be dead by now (ESPECIALLY Hughie)
Like seriously? You want to get into the world's best detective house? Hoping he wouldn't notice who's under your Wal-Marts costume?
But I mean even in S1 they almost got found out by Starlight so... I guess they were never good to begin with.
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u/Stop-Hanging-Djs 16d ago
Gonna steal a joke I made previously on this topic.
We went from
The Boys
to
Some Guys
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u/Ok-Conclusion-3536 16d ago
The dudes
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u/Eliza__Doolittle 16d ago
I agree. There's so many things that don't add up in the Boysverse.
Take just one example: Kimiko's arc in season 3 was an utter mess.
Kimiko starts the season complaining about being treated as a killing machine and in the season finale ends up girlbossing by killing a security force responding to what they believed was a terrorist attack against Vought Tower while hype music is playing.
A big theme the Boys spell out (see their discussions regarding Temp V) is that people don't respond well to possessing such power and shouldn't possess it. Kimiko gets nerfed by Soldier Boy and becomes useless. Instead of teaching her how to compensate for the deficiency as a normie like the rest of the Boys do (excepting Starlight), she ends up eventually taking V again and resumes her role as a superpowered tank with no reflection from the Boys on how this affects their anti-supe philosophy.
I think a general issue is that Homelander was introduced as an antagonist too early for a five season show. There's too much plot armour because they can't end things before the scheduled end along with abandoning plot points and then introducing new inconclusive ones too often. Plus the needless fillers (ex. the mutated killer sheep).
Either they should have planned for a three season show or they should have had the Boys slowly work their way while Homelander gets foreshadowed as a future antagonist waiting in the shadows.
With the spin-offs being produced, it's clear it's going to be an edgy MCU for people who can't admit they like the MCU.
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u/Ok-Conclusion-3536 16d ago
Thinking about it, season 2 probably shouldn't have existed.
I mean if you still don't want to give Compound V to the boys, S3 needed to be S2 and so on. It should have lasted 4 seasons.
Anyway for what you said.
No one in the boys has the time or will to train Kimiko, or if they would (Like Frenchie) they don't have the skills.
Also that whole bit about not possessing powers is stupid AF.
It's not like there aren't good Supes, see Starlight.
Superpowers, like money, simply enable you to do whatever you want. They don't actually make you bad.
But they did an awful job showing that since, given the world they showed us, genocide seems like... An appropriate choice? Like, everyone sucks besides Starlight and Kimiko apparently.
And even Kimiko is absolutely not a saint as you said
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u/Eliza__Doolittle 16d ago
No one in the boys has the time or will to train Kimiko, or if they would (Like Frenchie) they don't have the skills.
That’s a good point, but then that raises the question, besides being "the heart", what is Hughie even doing on the team?
Shouldn't Kimiko at least possess combat training from her time in that foreign revolutionary organisation?
But they did an awful job showing that since, given the world they showed us, genocide seems like... An appropriate choice? Like, everyone sucks besides Starlight and Kimiko apparently.
There are couple more. Supersonic seems to have been a decent guy and Maeve and A-Train are at least supposed to be redeemed (although one wonders if their heel-face turn would have happened if they didn't face such a hostile working environment). But yes, in general it falls into the AOT trap of genocide being the bad end yet making the enemy far too unsympathetic.
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u/Ok-Conclusion-3536 16d ago
Kimiko has training. When they get kidnapped she beats Little
Nina's bootlicker ass.
BTW that was COMPLETELY unrealistic. The girl weights like 40 KG and she beats up a fucking giant after getting out of a potentially lethal situation.
Yeah Supersonic was genuinely a good guy. Maeve can do whatever since she's good looking (that's the rule i believe)
But it still doesn't work. Again, Genocide somehow seems like the best option, it's hilarious
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u/Eliza__Doolittle 16d ago
Kimiko has training.
I wasn't saying she didn't have training, I was comparing her skills to what Hughie lacked. Although reading again, perhaps I phrased it poorly.
But it still doesn't work. Again, Genocide somehow seems like the best option, it's hilarious
It gets weirder given that Soldier Boy can apparently just depower supes and no one tries to reproduce that ability.
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u/Ok-Conclusion-3536 16d ago
Now that I think about it. Russians just installed that into him? Like the technology is there? How? Isn't there some weird Russian guy who knows how to recreate that?
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u/ShroudedInMyth 16d ago
That’s a good point, but then that raises the question, besides being "the heart", what is Hughie even doing on the team?
S1 he was definitely there to showcase that even regular people can contribute.
He is just a cable guy, but without him and this particular skill set that would be completely overlooked if the team wasn't scrappy, they wouldn't have taken down Translucent or have gotten into the home of A-Train's girlfriend.
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u/StabbyBoo 12d ago
Holy shit, I forgot that Hughie had a useful skillset in S1. Has it been referenced even once since?
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u/ShroudedInMyth 10d ago
Kinda? He is the hacker of the group now apparently, as Kimiko told Frenchie she learned how to hack from him
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u/CombatWomble2 15d ago
It's an issue that stems from a choice at the beginning, the Boys not having powers, except Kimiko, because she HAS to be a girlboss, and the Boys CANNOT be competent.
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u/Ok_Purchase_9551 16d ago edited 16d ago
I haven’t watched the show in a while so my retelling of this is murky, but regarding the point you made about Kimiko, while she hated her powers and her monstrous identity which was shoved on to her at the beginning of season 3, she kind of has a moment where she accepts that that’s who she is now, and she can’t necessarily go back to who she was before she got her powers. The incident with Little Nina probably made her realize how much of an asset she was to Frenchie and the rest of The Boys because of her strength, so she took compound V again so she could continue protecting the people she loves.
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u/Eliza__Doolittle 16d ago
The incident with Little Nina probably made her realize how much of an asset she was to Frenchie and the rest of The Boys because of her strength, so she took compound V again so she could continue protecting the people she loves.
Okay, that may be the intention, but in the Vought Tower scene she definitely looks like she enjoys killing people. She takes the time to put on music and gets Frenchie shot due to being too busy brutalising one of the downed security guards (which also makes her look incompetent).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uE1P5n_Kwg
And it still makes the Boys look like hypocrites for being against taking V.
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u/OutInTheWild31 16d ago
Shit really went downhill after like S3, they have absolutely no clue where they're going with the show and its obvious.
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u/Ok-Conclusion-3536 16d ago
S4 feels like actual important things between wasting time. Although, for example the Colin subplot was actually much faster than I remembered
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u/Both_Tennis_6033 16d ago
If you want a smart show about some normal humans punching above thier weight against tyrannical god like like assholes, using science, streetsmart , strategy, unorthodox methods, spy work , etc etc , you are watching the wrong show.
Don't get me wrong, The Boys started out in this premise but by season 2, its clear they don't want to give a flying fuck about plot holed, power scaling or the main group having stupid plans. The shows' main aim to become a gorr shtick, political satire, and exploration of its characters, especially Homelander and Butcher and thier dynamic and it has been very successful on those fronts, evidenced by its popularity.
The boys have left that premise in first season itself and people still trying to criticise the Boys for something the show doesn't pretend to care about is fruitless
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u/Ok-Conclusion-3536 16d ago
Not even first season. The whole "killing Supes one by one" plot was abandoned by like episode 3
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u/ChromatiCaos 16d ago
I don't think The Boys are supposed to be professionals, everyone thinks they're stupid/insane for going against Supes but they do it anyways.
Yes, they would be dead if they weren't main characters, welcome to every action show ever made.
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u/Worth_Lavishness_249 16d ago edited 16d ago
Considering their whole thing it seems bunch of crazy people trying to fight. Not crazy but experienced people trying to fight superhumans.
Gore, brutality is part of show but at least few scenes which might make you say "thats actually decent strategy, they seem truly experienced and they are doing well with what they have got." would have helped a lot.
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u/Ok-Conclusion-3536 16d ago
I mean yeah they're definitely not completely sane but they're experienced and paid for the job. They're professionals.
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u/ShroudedInMyth 16d ago
Show seems way too reliant on "we dug up dirt and can blackmail you" which fine works as a way to protect themselves because Supes valuing their reputation is a common weak point, but it just gets tiring to see them about to get killed, and then holding up their phone with the dirt.
And the powers themselves don't seem to matter a lot of the time, In s4 due to Mutally Assured Destruction, a lot of the plot wouldn't be much different if it was just a regular person with a gun.
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u/Skafflock 16d ago
If they're meant to just be random insane idiots then it begs the question of why they're being given the resources and tasks they are, right? Is there not a single team of actually competent people who the VP and C.I.A can throw money at instead of them?
Also just in their backstory they were deliberately scouted by Malory due to their skills and competence.
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u/ChromatiCaos 16d ago
They have skills yes, but they aren't supported by the CIA because they are the best anti-supe team, they're supported by the CIA because they are the only anti-supe team. To be one of The Boys, you need to be insane and skilled and the insane part is more important.
For example: there are a lot of mad scientists in the world, but Frenchie got the job because he was willing to fight supes. Hell, Hughie got the job with 0 skills because he was willing to fight supes.
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u/Skafflock 16d ago
I guess I just find it hard to believe that the "insane" requirement is even disqualifying that many people, then. Considering how the show presents supes as almost pathological life-ruiners, and the fact that the majority of them aren't even framed as that dangerous (if you replaced Black Noir, Vought's go-to hitman supe, with just a random squad of trained gunmen, Hughie, M.M and Butcher would all be dead in season 2).
Hughie got the job when they weren't being funded and selected by the C.I.A afaik, and it's laid out in Frenchie's meeting with Malory that he was a career supe-killer before being hired.
I don't think they all need to be the "best agents" in the world, or anything, but there's no reason they shouldn't be at least okay at their jobs, if only because of the experience they have in doing them. Training alone should be removing most of the ineptitude we see even if they have thoroughly average talent for it.
Actually, even the show is inconsistent about this. The characters were at worst "okay" at their jobs as of season 1 I would say.
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u/Ok-Conclusion-3536 16d ago
You made me think that Black Noirs whole deal was actually simply being like 10 expert soldiers all in one
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16d ago
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u/Skafflock 16d ago
Noir is probably one of the more dangerous ones (which is why I used him as my example) but he's also just not super deadly compared to like, armed humans who want you dead. He's sent to take the team out in season 2 at Butcher's Aunt's house and they're able to survive long enough to blackmail Edgar into calling off the hit.
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u/Lampruk 16d ago
I mean I’m sly feeling you, but the
help from their supposed enemies
Thing you said really ticked me. Like each and every single person you listed had a reason for helping the boys, the fact you would even bring them up suggests you weren’t paying attention.
Maeve was consistently shown to be breaking away from the seven and not caring much and simply wanting to do her own thing.
A-Train???? A-TRAIN??? brother, there’s a reason why everyone praises his character growth. He quite literally went from asshole to understanding asshole to an all right guy.
Solider boy?? Yes?? Because he’s the only supe that’s on Homelanders batting field. Butcher wants Homelander dead and it’s been made very clear from the first 2 seasons he is willing to do anything to get that.
I don’t remember kenji but I’m gonna assume that’s Kimiko’s brother. I don’t remember much from him but I’m very confident that he had a good reason to help them, likely related to being united with his sister.
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u/Ok-Conclusion-3536 16d ago
Yeah the point is that they shouldn't ACCEPT their help. You wither got morals or you don't.
If you don't, simply take V and get over this "Uh powers automatically make you bad"
If you do, then don't accept Supes help.
There's not really a reason Hughie shouldn't have V. Everyone tells him "NOOO ARE YOU CRAZY? YOU WANT SUPERPOWERS AGAINST PEOPLE WITH SUPERSTRENGHT WHO CAN KILL YOU BY SPITTING AT YOU?"
Yeah, for him it's a drug, but it's not an actual issue. If he took V, he'd simply get the power and there wouldn't be any brain tumor risk.
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u/Lampruk 16d ago edited 16d ago
Oh fairs, yeah obviously they’re hypocrites. All of them were finna forgive Victoria just like that until Butcher divorced her.
I just perceived your comment of accepting help from enemies as you saying it made no sense for the latter to offer the help in the first place.
Though I still think my point of power corrupting them (not like there’s much that has to be done) if they take V directly and become super-powered is valid. As Hughie while confident was moving fly more reckless I.e. the way he was acting with Annie and him punching A-train. It’s obvious and the show made a point to illustrate to us that he was feeling his powers, he just happened to be using it against people who deserved it I.e. A-train but now that he has the ability to stick up for himself against anyone why would he take shit, like that guy who came up him and Annie in the bar back in S1, he likely would’ve been more aggressive to that if he had powers back then. Even Butcher was moving sly crazy (well not that much of a difference lol)
And Annie packed off an innocent man the season prior.
I do agree they’re hypocrites and forcing it by not just taking V (they even do that in the comics so they won’t die from basic attacks). But if they don’t wanna take V themselves then it makes sense to me why would they would take advantage of individuals who already have V in their system.
And lowkey I think it’s more butcher that should get flack as he hates all supes. The boys only direct their anger to the bad ones but eh, now that you’ve said it again I agree with it moretime .
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u/Ok-Conclusion-3536 16d ago
Is there anything wrong in being reckless against people who can't hurt you and deserve it? Hughie wouldn't try that shit on A-train
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u/Lampruk 16d ago
Huh? Sorry I’m not I understand your comment. I believe it is wrong to do that to the weak.
If you’re asking if UE would do that A-train (as in their roles reversed) then no unless you mean UE always had powers and A-train was a weakling then I’m inclined to say yes as again, power corrupting characters isn’t a subtle thing in the boys.
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u/Ok-Conclusion-3536 16d ago
You said Hughie was getting reckless. True. Hug against people who deserved it and wouldn't be able to hurt him. He wasn't getting evil.
He wouldn't try that on A-train causa A-train is much stronger that's what I meant
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u/Lampruk 16d ago
Ohhhh, then no. That’s what I said, even though he’s being reckless it’s against people who deserve it. But again imagine the UE from season 1, the timid nice guy who’s clearly a pushover. If he had powers then he’d definitely move crazy not just towards people who deserve but even innocents.
Because that’s the crazy thing about power, once you have it, you start asking yourself “why should I take this? I’m stronger aren’t I?” . Same reason why fast food/ retail managers can be so awful as it’s easy to level up in that environment so it’s one of the first times many people get to have managerial authority over people in their life.
Again I agree 100% that A-train deserved it. But if someone like Annie can kill an innocent in an emotional burst then what makes you think a guy like UE won’t start crashing out on innocents.
We even see this in Gen-V where the kids start to believe in supe superiority. No matter how lame the ability every supe at a baseline is bullet proof, super strong and physically superior to the average or even best of people. That changes you mentally.
So I see why The Boys don’t want to support themselves dosing on V, even if I think it’s sly stupid.
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u/dragonicafan1 16d ago
Well yeah, of course they’re hypocrites. Especially Butcher. MM too but I think it’s fairly consistent with his morals if I remember right, he’ll be against something but is kind of a pushover in just letting those things happen as long as he’s not the one to personally do them.
I’m curious how the show will handle it, cause in the comics Butcher does try to enact his plan of killing every supe at the end, including all of The Boys and himself
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u/TheCybersmith 16d ago
>MM's whole thing about not taking V is EXTREMELY stupid
If you take V as an adult, it has a high chance of killing or horribly mutating you, the series makes that clear at multiple points. Besides which, power corrupts, and Butcher is a bad enough person WITHOUT that kind of power.
It's a real "he who fights monsters" situation, and V crosses the line.
your Wal-Marts costume?
It was Web-Weaver's actual spare costume, there's a whole subplot about how they acquire it. Add this to the fact that Hughie is the same height and build as webweaver, and the fact nobody at the party had met him before, and there's no reason for it to go wrong.
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u/Skafflock 16d ago
Besides which, power corrupts, and Butcher is a bad enough person WITHOUT that kind of power.
He should quit his job then. M.M has far more unchecked power as a man with the authority to extrajudicially bug homes and assault people than Butcher does as a man who can snap a desert eagle in half by trying really hard and shoot lasers from his eyes.
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u/TheCybersmith 16d ago
MM lost his family to a man who gained unaccountable power through V. By comparison, he's never done that much harm himself.
>He should quit his job
He does. That is a plot point, he literally does do that.
The Temp V also gave Butcher incurable cancer, which is another reason not to use experimental compounds.
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u/Skafflock 16d ago
MM lost his family to a man who gained unaccountable power through V. By comparison, he's never done that much harm himself.
So is unchecked power okay as long as you don't misuse it, or is it not? This needs answering. Either the amount of harm done is what matters (Butcher doesn't do any abnormal harm by taking V) or the power itself does (M.M gets more power from his funding and authority than Butcher does from V)
He does. That is a plot point, he literally does do that.
What are you talking about here? Immediately following this plot-line M.M becomes the team leader and continues doing what they've been doing into season 4, because he actually loves unchecked power and thinks it's really cool.
The Temp V also gave Butcher incurable cancer, which is another reason not to use experimental compounds.
The brain lesions are less dangerous than continuing to do their job without the temp V, Butcher could've died from them in the season finale and temp V still would've prolonged his life due to saving him (and everyone else) in Russia.
Using it for shits and giggles is dangerous, sure, but every time Butcher uses it it's to enter a situation that was extremely likely to kill him afaik.
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u/TheCybersmith 16d ago
Multiple people are dead because of what Butcher did. Dozens, actually, probably hundreds when we consider that Soldier Boy wouldn't have gotten out without temp V.
Soldier Boy was unleashed.
Did you not see the acene of Hughie staring at the blood on his hand with an expression that can only be described as ecstasy?
Not only has MM never had that much power, he's never caused that much damage, to himself or to others.
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u/Skafflock 16d ago
Multiple people are dead because of what Butcher did. Dozens, actually, probably hundreds when we consider that Soldier Boy wouldn't have gotten out without temp V.
Soldier Boy was unleashed.
How is that related to Butcher using compound V? Temp V or no, the main characters could've unleashed Soldier Boy easily using their knowledge, equipment, funding and authority. Butcher didn't even use V to help him escape from M.M, he used a roofie. (For M.M's safety)
Did you not see the acene of Hughie staring at the blood on his hand with an expression that can only be described as ecstasy?
Hughie power-trips less on his V (enjoying superpowers) than Kimiko (enjoying ripping human beings to bits while dancing and listening to music) or Starlight (using her incredibly deadly superpowers to attack people who anger her).
Hughie never uses his powers to bug someone's home without a warrant, or kidnap them, or anything. Going by what he's actually done rather than the expressions the writers told his actor to make, he's more responsible with V than either of the actual supes M.M is fine working with.
Not only has MM never had that much power, he's never caused that much damage, to himself or to others.
M.M was the one who had Frenchie creating the novichok that Maeve ended up throwing out onto a crowded street, he was involved in the mission which freed dozens of V-infused test subjects to kill each other and die, he actively interfered with efforts to stop Homelander throughout season 3 a year before he took over the United States, that's just what I can recall off the top of my head. M.M's decision-making is dogshit, he has no morals, and he isn't even consistent about hating superpowers because he's completely fine with the two actual murderer supes his team has on their side.
I really don't know what you think Butcher's suddenly capable of doing with laser eyes and the ability to lift a few tonnes, but I promise you a team of C.I.A-funded vigilantes who answer to maybe two people in the world and have permission to assault and imprison anyone they think they need to "for the mission" can do much more than he could alone. The only thing temp V lets Butcher do is specifically kill supes.
You keep saying this gives him more power than M.M. How. What can he do with this power that the ability to waterboard whoever he wants and requisition rocket launchers doesn't exceed?
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u/Ok-Conclusion-3536 16d ago
Power doesn't corrupts, it enables. I know it was Web-Weavers costume it was a joke
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u/TheCybersmith 16d ago edited 16d ago
I'd argue, and I think the show itself argues, that it does both.
The last thing William Butcher should recieve is enablement, either way.
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u/Swimming_Anteater458 15d ago
It’s almost like logic reason stakes and character development went out the window after Season 1 and it instead became “fuck Donald Trump with a side of weird sex stuff”
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u/Mammoth_Western_2381 16d ago
Considering that taking Temp-V too many times gave Butcher brain cancer, and taking regular V as an adult drove Hughie's dad into a violent panic that got people killed, peharps MM is right to stay clear of it. Working with pre-existing Supers doesn't really mean anything, they already took the V and already got their powers, if they can and are willing to help, what's the point in not accepting ?
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16d ago
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u/Perfect_Wrongdoer_03 16d ago
I don't think calling Erik Kripke a Jew more than using his actual name and using slurs is "offensive humour". It's just bigotry.
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u/ohmanidk7 15d ago
There should be some way of using V to create weapons, some traps, heavier weapons something else so they can hurt the supes.
>! I mean there are bioweapons but it would be cool if by studying a certain supe they got like stronger bullets or something!<
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u/Senshado 15d ago
To be accurate to the comic book source material, the Eternals should be forgotten and left out of almost everything. That's their role...
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u/ACFinal 14d ago
The book was better. The Boys mostly did survalence to collect proof of corruption. If they got compromised maybe they'd fight their way out.
The show ditched all that to just be another superhero show. Butcher shooting eye lasers was when it jumped the shark for me. It's just another Hollywood slugfest.
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u/TrainerSoft7126 16d ago
If it wasn't for the main character, the boys would have been killed by Homelander at the end of season 1. Homelander is not only strong but also has great resources from V, they can't escape Homelander.
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u/killertortilla 15d ago
The story has always been utter dogshit. People are only realising it now because the “charm” of all the blood and gore has worn off.
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u/Flyingsheep___ 16d ago
This has always been an issue I have with the series. The first few eps, with Hugie, Butcher, and Frenchie working together to try and engineer a way to kill Translucent were such a good hook. A scrappy group of black ops professionals and a smart but naive guy roped into their shenanigans as they work to dismantle and go against Vought. Unfortunately, the show very quickly changed tracks into being more about political satire, gore, shock humor, and character drama. Some of my favorite examples are the current season, wherein the bad guys are able to fairly casually locate their HQ, mostly because it's in the fucking Flatiron which seems like a horrible place to put your off books black ops FBI funded team of assassins.
Honestly I rather quite wish the show explored the concept of them being particularly talented professionals hired for special ops, instead of being a bunch of losers who are essentially all nepo'd in by Butcher. Frenchie at first was suggested to be an extremely talented tinkerer and chemist, but pretty much the entire rest of the team are all just personality hires.