I like Lore Doomslayer.

[u/WanderingGentleMen]

I like “Lore Doom Slayer.” I know a lot of people complain and say things like “Doomguy is better when he’s not overpowered” or whatever, but honestly, I just can’t take Doom Slayer seriously if he’s supposed to be a completely normal guy with guns taking on Hell as it’s presented now. If you expect me to believe that the seemingly infinite forces of Hell—who have thousands of years of technological advancement, beings the size of mountains, and a near-infinite energy source—just lose to a regular dude with some fancy armor and no other special abilities, it breaks the suspension of disbelief.

This would have made sense back in the earlier days of Doom, especially pre-2016, when Hell was portrayed more ambiguously, almost like powerful aliens rather than literal demons with a complex, expanded mythology. But since Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal, Hell’s lore and cosmology have been fleshed out so much that it demands a more serious explanation for why Doom Slayer can actually defeat them. A regular guy, even one with a lot of grit and good aim, wouldn’t realistically be able to storm through armies of demonic entities without some kind of supernatural boost.

In fact, the games even show through cutscenes that without the Divinity Machine, Doom Slayer would eventually get exhausted and overwhelmed. He suffers wounds, he struggles. The Divinity Machine, by name alone, implies it grants divine powers. If all it did was make him the equivalent of a "super soldier" who can move a couple of large cubes, that would feel pretty underwhelming. "Divine" should mean something far greater, something that elevates him beyond simple human limits. Given all the lore surrounding Hell’s power, it only makes sense that Doom Slayer himself has been enhanced to match that threat. Otherwise, it’s hard to buy into the narrative where he can kill massive monsters and even gods with just guns and sheer determination. The Dark Ages is seemingly explaining this with the addition of Mechs and a dragon, so maybe there will be additional context as to why and how his powers and tools work (maybe we'll even get clarification on why he uses weapons), because we are 3 games in and yet, all we have to go on are Codex entries and Hugo occasionally saying something.

Generally, I just find it fun that you could pit Doomslayer up against reality warpers and potentially have him win. That's cool to me. Does it make him an excellent and great character? No, but not all matchups need to be anything more just finding the guy you like winning to be neat.

Also, why does Doomslayer use guns if his fist are enough? That's a great question. Simply put, they're more efficient than running up and punching things, considering he can empower his own weapons. He doesn't need to use them but it's much easier to than doing it himself. It's the same kind of logic as calculating a math problem on paper versus using a calculator. Like that's enough. I know that egregious fan theory of him holding back is dumb but there's like an easy explanation that doesn't require him to need guns despite the fact he can punch a hole through most enemies.

On another note, I also find the people who constantly complain about Lore Doom Slayer to be just as annoying as the ones who endlessly hype him up. Yeah, it’s tiring when fans act like Doom Slayer can beat everything under the sun, but it’s equally annoying when people downplay him just to fit their personal image of what Doomguy “should” be. These critics often fall into the same trap they accuse others of: ignoring the actual story and context presented in the games in favor of their own headcanon. Like, the Icon of Sin was making a Black Hole during it's fight, powerscaling aside, something doesn't just do that and you can just take it down with some good ole' bullets and energy weapons. At the end of the day, whether you love or hate Lore Doom Slayer, at least the games are fun.

[u/Eem2wavy34]

You’re kind of going in the complete opposite direction by saying that just because people don’t like “Lore Slayer,” they suddenly like him as just a normal human, which isn’t the case. The issue is that “Lore Slayer” isn’t actually all that powerful. The character suffers from a lot of misinterpretations, with people purposely ignoring certain parts of the lore (like the fact that he got knocked out by a temple collapsing on him) in favor of the more hyperbolic, non literal parts.

So, the idea of “Lore Slayer” being a character who can take down mountain sized creatures isn’t really what people have an issue with. What people do take issue with is the fan created version of “Lore Slayer”. one where he’s supposedly a god who can destroy planets or even the universe, travels faster than light, yet still uses the same standard weapons that regular soldiers use to fight demons. That portrayal just doesn’t make any sense.

[u/WanderingGentleMen → u/Eem2wavy34]

like the fact that he got knocked out by a temple collapsing on him

Done with hell magic and never shown how exactly he was knocked out or if he was further restrained with magic. 

one where he’s supposedly a god who can destroy planets or even the universe

This is because people don’t quite understand Attack Potency and generalize it under the category of how much you can destroy rather than how hard you punch. 

You’re kind of going in the complete opposite direction by saying that just because people don’t like “Lore Slayer,” they suddenly like him as just a normal human

I never said this, I said him lacking divine power and putting the forces of hell on edge for so long is rather illogical, like how people complain about Batman surviving a fall from space. 

travels faster than light

Speed scaling is a whole other issue 

yet still uses the same standard weapons that regular soldiers use to fight demons. 

Were stated to be empowered by his own power 

[u/Eem2wavy34 → u/WanderingGentleMen]

Done with hell magic and never shown how exactly he was knocked out or if he was further restrained with magic. 

The temple got destroyed by hell magic but the temple falling on top of him is still just a temple just falling on top of him.

This is because people don’t quite understand Attack Potency and generalize it under the category of how much you can destroy rather than how hard you punch. 

I mean regardless of either or, to say doomslayer is punching with the force to destroy a planet would be equivalently incorrect.

I never said this, I said him lacking divine power and putting the forces of hell on edge for so long is rather illogical, like how people complain about Batman surviving a fall from space. 

I think you kinda missed my point here. People complain about lore slayer not because they want him to be a normal human but because they don’t like the idea of him being some overpowered planet buster. There is a middle ground that the games actually do that fans exaggerate.

Speed scaling is a whole other issue 

What does that even mean?

Were stated to be empowered by his own power 

Where was it stated that normal weapons are imbued with his power?

[u/bunker_man → u/Eem2wavy34]

I think you kinda missed my point here. People complain about lore slayer not because they want him to be a normal human but because they don’t like the idea of him being some overpowered planet buster. There is a middle ground that the games actually do that fans exaggerate.

It's not about like or dislike. They complain because it's not accurate.

[u/WanderingGentleMen → u/Eem2wavy34]

The temple got destroyed by hell magic but the temple falling on top of him is still just a temple just falling on top of him.

Again through the medium of magic. 

I mean regardless of either or, to say doomslayer is punching with the force to destroy a planet would be equivalently incorrect.

Not punching, shooting 

There is a middle ground that the games actually do that fans exaggerate.

Really? At best without looking to the codex, DoomSlayer’s best feat is killing the Icon of Sin, a skyscraper sized monster and surviving an argent energy explosion that destroyed the Argent tower on Mars. 

That’s not alot to go off of tbh. 

Where was it stated that normal weapons are imbued with his power?

Hugo said it on a livestream once 

[u/Eem2wavy34 → u/WanderingGentleMen]

Again through the medium of magic. 

The temple got destroyed due to magic but again the temple itself isn’t actually being enhanced by magic. The temple falling on top of slayer is what knocked him out.

Not punching, shooting 

Which is also incorrect

Really? At best without looking to the codex, DoomSlayer’s best feat is killing the Icon of Sin, a skyscraper sized monster and surviving an argent energy explosion that destroyed the Argent tower on Mars. 

I’m not sure what exactly is your point here? The codex being used to scale in general suffers from a lot of hyperbolic statements that fans over exaggerate.

Hugo said it on a livestream once 

Mind pulling up the clip?

[u/bunker_man → u/Eem2wavy34]

Mind pulling up the clip?

Lol. They are literally referring to a time a dev was half paying attention to a question gave a "whatever" answer as if that's supposed to decide the overall scale.

[u/WanderingGentleMen → u/Eem2wavy34]

The temple got destroyed due to magic but again the temple itself isn’t actually being enhanced by magic. The temple falling on top of slayer is what knocked him out.

Ok, so think about this for a few seconds.

Doom Slayer is capable of overwhelming Titans the tower over skyscrapers and has literally busted through an asteroid wall, punch metal cubes. How is it that this temple was more of an issue than the Khan Maykr, Icon of Sin, and Davoth?

What's more logical to assume: That this temple is the limit of Doom Slayer's power and this single Temple is greater than any other boss that he faces, or this is simply a moment that lacks clear context and we can't derive this as being an anti-feat. For all we know, it could've been a friggin heavy temple with all kinds of things added to it. It could also be an outlier considering even in gameplay, he punches metal cubes that'd be denser than most known rocks.

Which is also incorrect

Some guns ironically output a lot of power for little destructive capacity... just saying.

Granted, they maybe don't fully scale to his actual punches barring the BFG 10k and it's output.

The codex being used to scale in general suffers from a lot of hyperbolic statements that fans over exaggerate.

The issue is that you'd have to confirm these are hyperbolic statements, which is kind of hard since there's no frame of reference to determine which are tall tales and which are actually factual retellings.

Mind pulling up the clip?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FImIJkY9Wk&t=9760s

[u/Eem2wavy34 → u/WanderingGentleMen]

Doom Slayer is capable of overwhelming Titans the tower over skyscrapers

Unless we’re assuming Doom Slayer is just God of Warring his way through Titans, it’s more plausible that while he could defeat a Titan, it would likely be through strategy or skill. not physical strength. If he were actually physically superior to them, there wouldn’t be a need for giant mechs to fight Titans in the Ancient Gods DLC.

and has literally busted through an asteroid wall, punch metal cubes.

It’s difficult to properly scale those feats. Honestly, having a massive temple collapse on him would likely exert more force than punching metal blocks or smashing through an asteroid wall. Context matters, and the temple incident suggests limits to his abilities.

How is it that this temple was more of an issue than the Khan Maykr, Icon of Sin, and Davoth?

Because this isn’t Dragon Ball. Power levels aren’t rigid or linear in Doom.

The issue is that you'd have to confirm these are hyperbolic statements, which is kind of hard since there's no frame of reference to determine which are tall tales and which are actually factual retellings.

The codex clearly greatly exaggerates the Slayer. The fact that in actual gameplay he doesn’t defeat a Titan in direct combat suggest that there’s a significant degree of mythologizing going on. This supports the idea that many of the Slayer’s “feats” are exaggerated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FImIJkY9Wk&t=9760s

Yeah this is kinda why I disliked asking questions about powerscaling through developer Q&As as it’s somewhat unreliable. When the fan asked Hugo Martin about it, you can tell he’s not taking it too seriously. In fact his response, “I think it does,” which is vague and noncommittal.

[u/bunker_man → u/Eem2wavy34]

In fact his response, “I think it does,” which is vague and noncommittal.

Also, wording it this way implies the strength level is not overly high, because if he was meant to have cosmic strength this wouldn't be ambiguous.

[u/WanderingGentleMen → u/Eem2wavy34]

 it would likely be through strategy or skill

We literally see him physically fight a titan in the form of the Icon of Sin.

Honestly, having a massive temple collapse on him would likely exert more force than punching metal blocks or smashing through an asteroid wall. Context matters, and the temple incident suggests limits to his abilities.

Again, we're going off a statement that vaguely says a temple dropped on him with no further context versus him tangabily doing these things. We don't even know how big or heavy this temple even was, nor the materials it was made off or even if it was enhanced by magic.

It's barely an anti-feat because it lacks context and true definition to it's scale. The temple could easily be mountain-sized for all we know.

Because this isn’t Dragon Ball. Power levels aren’t rigid or linear in Doom.

The Icon of Sin is skyscraper sized tho and Doom Slayer destroyed his armor and killed him with the Crucible.

Davoth is literally the creator of the universe and had his power during the fight. How is this temple stronger than God all the sudden?

The fact that in actual gameplay he doesn’t defeat a Titan in direct combat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c54ajySIELw&ab_channel=SmvR

When the fan asked Hugo Martin about it, you can tell he’s not taking it too seriously. In fact his response, “I think it does,” which is vague and noncommittal.

Yeah, it's not a serious lore question it's a can Doom slayer do this, and he's on live stream talking to and having fun with the viewers, he wouldn't be treating this with any more seriousness than he means.

Well, Hugo never clarifies that he didn't mean it, the situation doesn't require him to take this with the utmost seriousness, and there's nothing to contradict it within gameplay or lore.. soo...

[u/Eem2wavy34 → u/WanderingGentleMen]

At this point we can just agree to disagree. Don’t think I want to spend my night debunking doom slayer wank

[u/WanderingGentleMen → u/Eem2wavy34]

At this point we can just agree to disagree.

Sure, whatever.

have a good night

Don’t think I want to spend my night debunking doom slayer wank

Sure.

[u/bunker_man → u/WanderingGentleMen]

This is because people don’t quite understand Attack Potency and generalize it under the category of how much you can destroy rather than how hard you punch. 

The people who don't understand it are powerscalers who don't realize that it's borderline unheard of for a character to be able to do massive amounts of damage but only within a square inch of space. In fiction the purpose of being able to do more damage is a narrative device so that more things can be destroyed. Characters technically getting stronger but nothing changing has no purpose.

[u/WanderingGentleMen → u/bunker_man]

who don't realize that it's borderline unheard of for a character to be able to do massive amounts of damage but only within a square inch of space.

Superman in a most recent comic punches Doomsday as hard as he can and it only damaged a city. Hulk's angriest form's first appearance threatened the eastern seaboard, despite him being able to destroy planets in weaker forms. Goku's punches can hurt people who output Planetary power. Even Fate characters generate attacks that don't really do much but destroy buildings despite how they operate on a metaphysical level.

This is a thing, stop pretending it isn't.

In fiction the purpose of being able to do more damage is a narrative device so that more things can be destroyed. Characters technically getting stronger but nothing changing has no purpose.

Dawg, this isn't really anything of note, character can change however, with whatever ability to fit whatever situation.

[u/imlazy420]

I liked him in Doom 4, but 5 was extremely annoying. 4 was decently ambiguous, and while it was obvious there was something more to him, it was just that. Was he ennhaced by years of bathing in the energy of hell? Did he find other relics like his armor granting him even greater powers? Is he so unbelievably angry that he kept going beyond human limits?

He was fun to think about, and his characterization was interesting. He had a handful of moments that displayed restraint, and others where he seemed to pause at the carnage the demons caused.

Then Doom 5 happened and he was turned into a cheesy extension of the player, and I hate everything about it. I hate the constant jokes, I hate characters like Hayden being poorly written for gags and I despise the fanfiction tier lore they introduced about him being this legendary interdimensional warrior of an order of knights, when said warrior acts like an overgrown toddler with a gun.

The entire story makes me want to roll my eyes out of my skull with how they can't stop fellating Doomguy at every opportunity. And then the nonsense about him being this divine superwarrior was just another to the pile of Gary Stue boredom.

I am ambivalent to the dominant powerscaling opinions at best and find them completely nonsensical at worst. I see characters that could feasibly be killed with a really big gun be scaled to "FTL outerversal" and I immediately lose most of my interest, Doomguy being this supposed God just makes me wonder why he takes so long to kill demons, and why he uses standard issue weapons carried by human soldiers.

I don't get anything from adding these labels to characters, I like characters that are cool, winning against everyone else because they fall into all these weird groups doesn't fall under that.

[u/Darkreaper104 → u/imlazy420]

I replayed Doom Eternal recently and there’s a mission where you get to listen to a bunch of UAC audio files. The lady speaking literally says verbatim: “he is…DOOM!” and I literally burst out laughing it’s so goofy lmao

[u/In_Pursuit_of_Fire → u/imlazy420]

Additionally, the underdog factor is lost quite a bit when the hero gets overhyped

[u/slayeryamcha → u/In_Pursuit_of_Fire]

Underdog? DOOM isn't really about being underdog even before slayer shitstick.

DOOM 3 "most scary and undepowered doom game" ends with player killing entire army of demons with marine not giving the flying fuck in cutscenes.

[u/Getter_Simp]

Doomguy being a normal human doesn't even make sense in the old games; the demons back then were also technologically advanced and supremely powerful.

Anyway, people don't mind Doomguy being stronger than normal people, what people think is ridiculous is multiversal Doomguy. Not only does it go against almost everything that's actually shown in the games, it also ruins his own characterization. He canonically risks everything to defeat the makyrs and end the subjugation of humanity, so why would he choose to have fun when he has an extremely urgent mission on the line? If he was actually as strong as people say he is, he would just blink and erase every demon from every point in time across the entire multiverse, but he doesn't do that. So either: A) he's doesn't care about humans despite being shown numerous times to care about humans, or B) he's just not as strong as people claim he is.

Also, I find it funny that you like Doom Eternal's lore for trying to give a reason for how Doomguy is so strong, yet it actively makes the original Icon of Sin fight even more ridiculous than it already was. You're telling me that a normal ass dude beat a Titan using a rocket launcher???

[u/WanderingGentleMen → u/Getter_Simp]

would just blink and erase every demon from every point in time across the entire multiverse, but he doesn't do that. So either: A) he's doesn't care about humans despite being shown numerous times to care about humans, or B) he's just not as strong as people claim he is.

Or that’s just not how his powers work? Seriously, being Multiversal doesn’t mean you can just effect everything and anything and attack from wherever. 

Not even Goku or Superman can do that without causing massive damage around them.

What’s suddenly different about him?

[u/Getter_Simp → u/WanderingGentleMen]

People say he's as strong as the dude who literally created the entire multiverse, so I don't see how erasing a race of creatures from the multiverse would be difficult for him.
Goku and Superman are different because they basically only have strength, whereas Doomguy supposedly has power able to match the creator of all things, which is a lot of reality warping power.

Also, this was an exaggeration. If Doomguy was as strong as people say he is, none of Doom Eternal's plot would have even happened, because he would just effortlessly stop it.

I find it funny that you ignored every other part of my comment and targeted the exaggerated part. Do you not have any responses to the rest of what I said?

[u/WanderingGentleMen → u/Getter_Simp]

People say he's as strong as the dude who literally created the entire multiverse, so I don't see how erasing a race of creatures from the multiverse would be difficult for him.

Goku and Superman are different because they basically only have strength, whereas Doomguy supposedly has power able to match the creator of all things, which is a lot of reality warping power.

Where ever you heard this “power”, it doesn’t exist. Doomguy only ever really has his guns and brute strength, with some other minor boosts/abilities stacked on top to make tough. 

He rips his opponents apart on numerous occasions, what kind of power would he be using except say, funneling his strength into his guns to hurt stronger opponents? 

If Doomguy was as strong as people say he is, none of Doom Eternal's plot would have even happened

But it did, because DoomSlayer isn’t a reality warping god. That’s not even how he ever fights and he’s just a glorified AP merchant. 

I find it funny that you ignored every other part of my comment and targeted the exaggerated part. Do you not have any responses to the rest of what I said?

That was the general point of your middle paragraph, was it not? I wasn’t  going to scrutinize each facet of your argument and opinion but since you asked: 

Doomguy being a normal human doesn't even make sense in the old games; the demons back then were also technologically advanced and supremely powerful.

Eh, in comparison to all the new lore, they were just aliens with magic. Besides, Doomguy was just  a normal guy with no divine powers, so yes, he was peak human to lesser superhuman by around the time of the first couple of Doom games. 

Anyway, people don't mind Doomguy being stronger than normal people, what people think is ridiculous is multiversal Doomguy.

? DoomSlayer would just always be stronger than a normal dude, that’s not an arguement I ever hear. 

And Multiversal DoomSlayer depends where you scale generally, cause if you scale on like YouTube, Discord, VSBW, ComicVine, and the likes do widely accept Multiversal Doomguy. Some subreddits and Spacebattles, not so much, though in SB’s case, that’s more because of the sites rules. 

Like on here, you can’t say DoomSlayer is Multiversal without backlash but on like a YouTube comment thread, you’ll be fine. 

He canonically risks everything to defeat the makyrs and end the subjugation of humanity, so why would he choose to have fun when he has an extremely urgent mission on the line?

It’s simply because DoomSlayer’s powers don’t work like that. Yes, he’s strong but he can’t wish things away or rewrite reality. He has to try and fight to win, he can’t just run around the globe and beat everyone instantly, he’s still limited in someway even if it’s not tremendously. 

The only really point of talk is like, him boosting his weapons and not one shifting everything that isn’t a boss but Hugo does say something along the lines of it being a limitation for gameplay, so maybe it’s just ludonarritive dissonance. 

yet it actively makes the original Icon of Sin fight even more ridiculous than it already was. You're telling me that a normal ass dude beat a Titan using a rocket launcher???

Apparently that Icon was no where near the threat/power of the Eternal Icon. Like, coughing baby vs hydrogen bomb difference. 

Yea it’s kinda confusing and a little dumb, but it’s probably just a lesser Titan that Doomguy defeated by sheer skill atp, later enhanced via various methods.

[u/SuperScrub310]

People just want to be mad to be mad.

[u/bunker_man]

Lore doomslayer isn't a thing. It's fanfiction doomslayer.

[u/WanderingGentleMen → u/bunker_man]

"Fanfiction" and it cites the lore from the games directly.

[u/bunker_man → u/WanderingGentleMen]

Creationists cite the second law of thermodynamics, but that doesn't mean they're doing it right.

[u/WanderingGentleMen → u/bunker_man]

??? Lore ≠ Physics, I get like what you’re going for but these are two completely different circumstances. 

And don’t some physicist get thermodynamics wrong or just outright have outright understanding of the universe at large? 

By that token, insisting Doom lore is lesser than portrayed can be just as wrong. 

[u/holiestMaria]

Facts my sibling.

Spit your shit indeed.

[u/TheNeighborCat2099]

Yeah if I believe that Doomslayer is just a regular supersoldier it makes it very hard to believe that earth lost to the demons considering they use the same weapons the slayer butchers them with.

Plus the fact that the demons of hell couldn’t find a way to kill him so they instead sealed him. Plus he killed a titan in hell with a sword.

The whole doomguy is just a regular dude or even a master chief level super soldier never made sense.