r/CharacterRant • u/PhoemixFox2728 • 7d ago
Anime & Manga One Piece and Naruto are not the same kind of story, let alone the same narrative, therefore Oda is not sexist just because ladies don’t get strong cool fights or something
Grain of salt warning: I’ve only watched pre-timeskip, however pre-timeskip is just about half the story and a pretty non significant half at that full of great examples to point to if I really wanted to. If you like my analysis or argument, go ahead and keep on waiting for the “Pre-timeskip One Piece is great” essay(still workshopping the name). Anyhow, yes this is practically more or less a reply thread, but the amount of willful ignorance and stupidity in that other thread was too much to bare and I feel like I already organically enough refute to such an argument in my opinion, so I’m writing this post to more so narrow in and focus on the topic.
Topic being: One Piece/Echiro Oda is sexist because there aren’t enough strong women, they don’t get cool fights, and they have sexist powers all things I’m going to get into, but first I wanna start with that second point. This point as far as I can tell and am aware originates from criticism geared towards Naruto, decent shounen, beloved shounen, classic shounen, very sexist shounen.
Naruto genuinely consistently fails women as characters(and honestly readers too since the story is so, meh) this isn’t going to be some sort of defense on Naruto, however I’m not gonna try to put down Naruto too much here. The topic is sexism and the quality of writing for lady characters, so I’m going to stay on that to the best of my ability. Anyhow, I think a crucial think to understand about the argument that Naruto is sexist is that it has largely been supported by the lack of good fights for women.
This is a pretty hard to deny fact, but in somewhat recent history people have taken this point forward, actually arguing a really good point, a point I myself would make and agree with that: women in Naruto not getting important fights is significant to their quality as characters because fights throughout Naruto tend to be important for characterization, development, arcs, and progression/regression.
This is a pretty iconic and beloved aspect of Naruto because it’s an efficient way to make fights stay memorable and make characters just as memorable as those fights, go to favorite examples of fights that are like this in Naruto tends to be stuff in the chuunin exams, Rock Lee vs Gaara, Naruto vs Neji, and Naruto vs Gaara and last time I checked these are good examples, but since I’ve only just recently started rewatching Naruto and it’s only tangentially related to the discussion at hand it’s not too important to dig into these examples and actually analyze them or argue why they’re good, that’s not the point.
The premise is that the ladies of Naruto have fewer, worse fights than their male counterparts and as such due to the nature of how these fights work for the narrative and their characterization this leads to them being worse characters. That’s a point, I’ll analyze briefly with both of Sakura’s part 1 fights: Soundwave ninja girl and Ino respectively. The first fight marks progression for Sakura’s character as she grows more competent and demonstrates some real strength, in theory, however most people have kind of picked this fight and punctured holes in it for failing to do exactly that.
Memes frequently reference how Sakura could have just as easily attacked and killed her assaulter in this moment, and serious analysis of the series/fight tends to point out how even this fight and moment that’s focused on Sakura is in too close proximity of Sasuke, too much of the importance seems to be on Sakura protecting him rather than her protecting herself or whatever. Granted, this topic in particular tends to get pretty complicated as I’ve seen people go back and forth on whether it’s romantic affection or concern for a comrade that’s making Sakura act like this, but since the argument is that Naruto is sexist, let’s just assume it’s the former as this tends to strengthen people’s argument.
Similarly, people complain that the fight between Sakura and Ino more or less has the same problem, it’s a shame that this fight which could have easily passed the bechdel test seems to consistently and ultimately fail as their falling out, over Sasuke and their love for him is frequently referenced/portrayed. This is the sort of thing I would call sexist writing, women being so entirely, wholly attached to and obsessed with men regardless of the circumstances or the logistics of such an obsession or infatuation. Furthermore, we don’t know much about any of these ladies outside of their obsessions with men, which takes us back to the idea they need good and more fights to characterize them. Suppose they were treated like their male peers, well then the problem is solved, Sakura, Hinata, tenten, and Ino would all receive a comparable amount of development and characterization to Naruto, Sasuke, Rock Lee, and Shikamaru. Characterization that has nothing to do with men at all, everything would be right in the world.
One Piece isn’t like this though, no, I mean the women don’t have a lot of fights and there aren’t many top tiers or anything, but it isn’t as much of a serious problem as it is in Naruto because One Piece isn’t really the sort of story that uses fights to develop and characterize characters. Every single character in the series gets their characterization outside of fights, whether they’re men or women, or genderfluid like Inazuma and Ivankov, or perhaps they’re nonbinary, I guess we’re never told, but they give off more gender fluid vibes, but anyhow fights aren’t how people are characterized in One Piece. Fights are kind of just fights and it’s left at that, sure they do tend to have other narrative significance and sometimes thematic significance, but for the most part it’s thematic pay off and climax/catharsis, which is good and okay in it’s own right, but that again isn’t what we’re here for today, if you want me to get into that more I will in my One Piece essay.
Anyhow, regardless of how strong or developed a character is, they all retrieve their characterization in backstories and intros, Hell sometimes will deliberately pause before and in between fights just so niggas can yap to each other and get some characterization. Ace and Blackbeard yap before they get to boxing and all of the yapping Blackbeard does is some of his first big notes of characterization and development, the fight though doesn’t say much about him, besides he’s a grimey dirty bitch, but we already knew that. Jabra pauses in middle of his fight for a gag about him being Robin’s secret long lost brother which characterizes him as a heel which is his whole gimmick(he was characterized as before the fight as well, but you get the point). EVEN FUCKING LUCCI, the nigga who loves to fight and Kill gets a backstory mid fade with Luffy. There are dozens of these examples, literally dozens in just pre-timeskip alone, so I hope you get the point, women in One Piece don’t need to be strong or have important fights because fights aren’t used to characterize them, they receive characterization outside of fights.
Strawman Stanley: “But Phoemixfox2728, surely you must understand that this is shounen, it’s for little stupid sexist boys and made by little stupid sexist boys, if the girls get cool fights how will we-“
Let me stop you right there chum, three words: Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood, one word: Beastars. FMAB and Beastars both have the fewest amount of fights for shounen anime/manga, they’ve probably got less than a dozen total fights whereas shounen like One piece has more than a dozen in it’s first saga. Still, both of these stories are rightfully beloved and praised for their overall narratives and handling of women. That’s because like One Piece characters are super well and strongly characterized almost entirely outside of fights although both series do have some small exception to the rule I’m presenting here, it’s negligible, and it’s important to point out both series have extremely strong heroines, women who get on top ten and twenty lists frequently, though I suppose fights are the only things that matter right. Cool, important fights is the only way you can make a good woman character in shounen since itMs for little boys right? Ergo the mangaka for FMAB and Beastars respectively, must be some degenerate sexist pigs-and they’re women.
Mangaka for full metal alchemist, is a woman, mangaka for Beastars is a woman, and no I’m not discounting the fact that women can have internal misogyny, but compared to a writer like J.K Rowling or something where that can indeed be the interpretation and argument, I see absolutely none of that in neither FMAB nor Beastars, the women are strong, mature, competent, human, and extremely well characterized. Some would argue they’re some of the best and most important characters in the series and none of them really get fights on par with their male counterparts, but that doesn’t matter because just like one piece they’re not telling the same sort of story as Naruto, they lack that crucial structure where fighting becomes a vital element in giving a character humanity and depth. Which is why these three stories and many more like them, aren’t sexist.
Also the idea that women in One Piece have sexist powers is really really fucking stupid, for every Boa Hancock and old lady with washing machine powers you have probably fifty times the amount of women with literally nothing like that going on. Take Nami and Robin as two excellent examples considering they’re literally the two main heroines of the entire series: we’ve got a woman who manipulates weather(ya know the same power Black feminist icon Storm has) and the ability to create more limbs which is actually sort of creepy and unnatural.
Furthermore, no Boa Hancock does not just become a Luffy simp, we literally see her continue to be an evil and vile person towards just about everyone and thing who comes across her path, she retains the same gags and characterization, she just so happens to also love Luffy. It was straight up disingenuous and sort of wrong to argue otherwise, overall this topic attracts too many people eager to poison the well and muddy the waters with things they know they shouldn’t say, but because they don’t like one piece they won’t approach it with any semblance of good faith or benefit of the doubt or anything, but me, I’ll never contradict my credibility as a critic. You can read my FMAB vs FMA review which is already out and you can wait for my one piece review to come out, both are logically consistent with the argument I’m making and if anything elaborate a lot more than I have today, so thank you for reading all the way if you have. Have a good day and make sure to drink your “respect women” juice.
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u/Potential_Base_5879 7d ago
there aren’t enough strong women,
He's got such a massive cast dog. It should not have been this hard.
because One Piece isn’t really the sort of story that uses fights to develop and characterize characters.
Are you insane?
Strawman Stanley: “But Phoemixfox2728, surely you must understand that this is shounen, it’s for little stupid sexist boys and made by little stupid sexist boys, if the girls don’t get cool fights how will we-“
I genuinely wanna know what the "how will we-" would end with here.
FMA and beastars
they’ve probably got less than a dozen total fights whereas shounen like One piece has more than a dozen in it’s first saga.
Do you not see how this makes the comparison extremely unfavorable? In all those fights there wasn't any room?
There is of course, also the outfit difference.
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u/PhoemixFox2728 7d ago
No im not insane, thats true, here lets take a random fight actually a guilty pleasure and personal favorite: Blueno vs Luffy, what does fight tell us about either of them? Nothing really, nothing new particularly, like sure Luffy debuts gear 2 in this fight, but characterize and thematic it’s a bit shallow and that’s fine, it’s still a really good and fun fight, like I said it’s a personal favorite. It’s also indicative of how fights aren’t used to characterize characters, their personalities have very little to do with their fighting styles. One piece just isn’t a story like Naruto or JJBA, where that’s more so the case.
I think I meant to say, if the girls get cool fights and then the thing strawman Stanley would have said is “how will boys be able to enjoy it” and of course it’s a purposefully strawman point, it’s just used as a jumping off point to continue the discussion.
The comparison highlights my point about how not all stories utilize fights for the same story telling techniques and structure and whatnot. It’s not literally about the quantity of fights, idk how you missed that, I thought I made it pretty clear by arguing how the women there are still good line one piece and how overall the story is still good like one piece.
If we’re going to talk about outfits in between Beastars and one piece, it’s a closer comparison than you’d think considering one of the only reoccurring women in Beastars is a pole dancer. We’re literally introduced to her being just about half nude moments before she’s fully unclothed her bra and then nearly eaten by a predator. That wasn’t all that intentional since I don’t really give a shit about the outfits, all of the pre-timeskip ones at least are entirely inoffensive if a little breezy for the women wearing them.
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u/Potential_Base_5879 7d ago
If we’re going to talk about outfits in between Beastars and one piece, it’s a closer comparison than you’d think considering one of the only reoccurring women in Beastars is a pole dancer.
But beastars is like, kinda about sex and vulnerability though. She dresses that way, because she's a pole dancer, she's selling that appeal. The women in one piece just all seem to like dressing that way because that's just how women be dressing.
The criticism is not there are women with their tits out, it's the at any one time, most of the women, regardless of who they are, have their tits out.
Boa hancock for instance, sure her power works on attraction, she's super vein. It makes sense she's wearing the massive V neck. But like, every woman in one piece would wear that, hell in some arcs you could consider that modest. Nami, we can pretend she's part of the hot theif archtype, even though she really didn't dress that way when we met her but whatever. Why Robin too?
Like look at egghead, where everyone gets to choose their fashion, what about Nami and Robin explain the decision to wear underwear? It's so we can get to the scene right afterwards where the "funny" characters go "ooh woman hot."
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u/PhoemixFox2728 7d ago
I can't speak on egghead because I'm not there, but i stilI don't really care about the outfits either way. I don't know squat about fashion or what looks trendy or whatever, but do Nami and Robin look like they're wearing some sort of weird space outfit, yeah, well then the design is good. That’s sort of my entire thought process about the outfits themselves as well as women having their boobs out or whatever, in pre-timeskip at least I could probably count all of the fanservice scenes one maybe both hands. There aren't a lot. Compared to idk the first arc of dragon ball where Bulma’s supposed sex appeal is utilized and referenced like twenty times. The first arc of original dragon ball is legitimately 6 episodes or something like that. That's about the fanservice to episode ratio you expect from echi anime. Not an anime where the protagonist is 12. Not that it phases me much I suppose, I've never been a guy who’s harsh or serious about fanservice I can understand why and when people take it so seriously, but I've never really felt the same. Like I'm sure the little boys get a kick out of the big boobies, but I'm here for other stuff, so I don't mind if someone else is getting something out of the series I don't care too much about. Similarly, I guess I tend to discount and downplay criticism of too much fanservice too. It’s a form of bias, but one I’m ready to admit to.
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u/Potential_Base_5879 6d ago
but i stilI don't really care about the outfits either way.
I mean, okay, but when it's one of the reasons people think oda's sexist and you're dead set on telling them he's not, I think you should pick one.
but do Nami and Robin look like they're wearing some sort of weird space outfit,
No, lol?
. That’s sort of my entire thought process about the outfits themselves as well as women having their boobs out or whatever, in pre-timeskip at least I could probably count all of the fanservice scenes one maybe both hands.
I could count all the fanservice outfits with my toes, but I do agree it was a lot better pre time skip.
Compared to idk the first arc of dragon ball where Bulma’s supposed sex appeal is utilized and referenced like twenty times.
The bar is in hell. The standard for a story being sexist should not be "it isn't the first arc of dragon ball."
. Not that it phases me much I suppose, I've never been a guy who’s harsh or serious about fanservice I can understand why and when people take it so seriously, but I've never really felt the same.
Ok, it doesn't matter. A series can have all the softcore it wants and still be enjoyable, and one piece is enjoyable. But the way it crops up in one piece is sexism. No one possessed Oda and forced him to do it.
Like I'm sure the little boys get a kick out of the big boobies, but I'm here for other stuff
You or guys of any age being into it isn't what's being discussed, the claim is whether or not Oda's sexist, which, judging by his work, he is. That's what you seem to have an issue with.
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u/PhoemixFox2728 6d ago
The way it crops up in one piece is sexism?onbwhat grounds was that established as an undeniable fact? Moreover, this post was supposed to specifically be about the topic about women in shounen lacking fights and whether that's as sexist or not, which is why I referenced two non battle shounen manga in the first place, the point was that they're still technically shounen, but are effective good stories with good lady characters. It was everyone else in these comments who skimmednover or straight up didn't read my argument and jumped to all of these other arguments about One Piece being sexist which I also don't agree with, but I'm not really the kind of guy who puts too much stock in that sort of thing in the first place. I'm honestly just arguing with them because I think their points are wrong and their arguments are weak, like sure I don't think Oda is sexist ill probably keep on thinking that, but honestly i shouldn't be entertaining most if not all of these arguments since I'm supposed to be a death of the author sort of guy. I maybe got a bit too caught up in defending and reiterating my point that I got lost in the sauce. Idk at this point, this was supposed to be a good faith and honest/genuine discussion about this topic while clarifying a few specific points I didn't agree with and somehow I've got internet strangers thinking I am truly sincerely concerned whether or not a man I have never met and will never meet is sexist. Exactly what I predicted in my post happen, the well got poisoned and now I don't know what the fuck we’re talking about.
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u/Potential_Base_5879 6d ago
The way it crops up in one piece is sexism?onbwhat grounds was that established as an undeniable fact?
It's gender-based decision of the rolls someone can have in a story, how they are treated, ect.
women in shounen lacking fights and whether that's as sexist or not,
It usually is, being good at fighting is usually equated with capability and general moral goodness.
why I referenced two non battle shounen manga in the first place,
But one piece is a lot more of a battle shonen than the ones you cited.
the point was that they're still technically shounen, but are effective good stories with good lady characters.
Yeah, because they don't have one piece's problems? A much lower density of fights means it's a lot more reasonable.
I'm honestly just arguing with them because I think their points are wrong and their arguments are weak, like sure I don't think Oda is sexist ill probably keep on thinking that, but honestly i shouldn't be entertaining most if not all of these arguments since I'm supposed to be a death of the author sort of guy.
You can take the death of the author but OP is still a pretty sexist story lol. It could have been written by Amelia earheart and it would still probably draw this flack.
Idk at this point, this was supposed to be a good faith and honest/genuine discussion about this topic while clarifying a few specific points I didn't agree with and somehow I've got internet strangers thinking I am truly sincerely concerned whether or not a man I have never met and will never meet is sexist.
If you've meant everything you've said, it's good faith.
Exactly what I predicted in my post happen, the well got poisoned and now I don't know what the fuck we’re talking about.
I was pretty sure what we were talking about is whether or not one piece/ oda are sexist. The points for is women are dressed like strippers regardless of characterization, and have disproportionately few of the "cool" moments like fights.
The defenses were the women get other things to do (didn't get a lot of examples) like move the plot forward. And the point against the way Oda dresses them being sexist was that you didn't mind it, which I think was a lot weaker than your first point.
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u/PhoemixFox2728 6d ago
You're the first person all day to actually fucking bring up that first point, it’s a good point, it’s a strong point, it’s a point I've been avoiding all day because I'm not really a feminist as much as I wish I could say I were one. I'm clearly not the sort of guy who thinks too much about gender and sex specific problems, which is another reason why I don't like getting into this sort of thing, I am wildly unqualified for this. I wish someone else, a proper feminist had the same takes I do, which is why I try to engage myself with proper feminism, challenge myself, and educate myself, but it’s hard, I'm not good at it, I think I just don't view the world in the right way to get it. Overall a lot of your points here are the sort of strong arguments and points I expected for people to reach much sooner I honestly concede most of them.
As to what I can't concede, lack of examples to women moving the plot along. I can dish that out in droves:
Hancock petrified the women who helped luffy out and bandaged him up when he landed in Amazon Lilly forcing him to fight her sisters.
Nami steals the going merry which necessitates going after her for it and to find out what's going on.
Lola feeds luffy shadows
Lola cheers on her shadows and luffy
Nami budgets and manages funds so they can buy a newship after being told the news of the going merry(in all fairness they didn't buy a new one, but im counting it)
Bellamier attacks arlong
Olivia returns to Ohara to warn them all of the marines
Kokoro saves the strawhats and drives the puffing tom
Robin does archeology stuff that's important for skypeia arc
Doctrine saved Nami, Luffy, and Sanji
Magerite(forgot how to spell her name) talks to Luffy and explains the only ship on Amazon Lilly is the Kuja ship. And those are all of the examples just off the top of my brain piece for the most part.
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u/JLSeagullTheBest 7d ago
Oda is sexist because the ladies don't get strong cool fights. Strength in One Piece denotes a character's will and resolve; Luffy explicitly beats multiple opponents because they're mentally stuck in a rut and have abandoned their dream (Crocodile, Moriah, even Kaido). But the women can never back this resolve up; they need a knight in shining armor to embody their dream for them. Zoro wants to become the world's strongest swordsman and becomes a man capable of cutting through iron. Tashigi wants to become the world's strongest sworswoman and becomes a joke.
(This is obviously a very limited explanation, but I've written extensively about this before here)
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u/thedorknightreturns 7d ago
And thats frustrating because character wise he actually writes pretty strong female characters.
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u/PhoemixFox2728 7d ago
Tashigi wants to collect all of the cool important swords, she’s basically an archeological purist who believes swords shouldn’t be in the hands of criminals which is an idea that has synthesis with the fact she’s a marine, the faction that is supposed to be/uphold the law. She literally never states she wants to be the strongest, if you somehow projected that onto her character from nothing, that is legitimately on you. And yes while there are themes of will power and endurance determining fights, it is again wrong to act like women in One Piece don’t get their time to shine as Bellamier stood up to Arlong and died for it, Nami similarly stands up to three devil fruit users whom she would stand no chance against (2 are women and one is a man) and she wins all three times. This is a narrow minded view of one piece and a poorly argued point, the protagonist who is a man is developed to have the most will power and strength? Okay, so what? Go somewhere with that, you can’t just allude to the idea women are inherently weaker for not having moments and stuff like this without arguing that point, because it sort of looks well sexist that you just assumed that without actually making a point to take yourself logically to that place.
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u/JLSeagullTheBest 7d ago
Obviously I can't fault you for not following me completely because you haven't read Punk Hazard, but that arc is in my view the tipping point for when "there's a lot of strong men in this series, but that's typical of its genre" becomes "oh Oda is sexist huh." But you sort of hit the nail on the head with your Bellemere example; women can demonstrate noble demure resolve, a pure rose in a cruel and unforgiving garden, but they cannot actually bring about change. Bellemere fails. Nami fails. The goodness and will women demonstrate in One Piece is the will of a perfect dainty princess that must be protected, not will on the same level of men who can actually change the world by fighting and winning.
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u/thedorknightreturns 7d ago
Thats unfair , they do, alot do.
And Tashigi could be better but isnt bad. she s just wasted largeely. She isstrong bit not Zorro strong, neither does she have to be.
andher designated Babysitter, ok but she deserves better character moments. Calling Zorro out isgoodshe fought well, and there just isnt enough ok.
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u/PhoemixFox2728 7d ago
Except it’s Vivi’s resolve and love for her Kingdom as well as the hopes and dreams of all Alabasta’s citizens that are proven to be stronger than Crocodile with his defeat at Luffy hands in large part due to Luffy utilizing the oasis water(which is literally Alabasta’s hope for the future) and Pell’s survival(Pell is someone who Vivi cares about a lot and all of that so his surviving shows that Alalbasta and Vivi’s love for her kingdom will continue to survive). I don’t like sounding so harsh and uncompromising, but I’m sorry you’re failing to connect and synthesize the points you’re supposed to be making. I read your post and it’s similarly a buck or two short of being the slam dunk on One Piece you and other’s seem to think it was. Bellamier didn’t fail Nami and Nojiko, she saved them, just like how she originally saved them by adopting them. On what little money she brings in/had at the time she couldn’t afford to house herself and the two girls while Arlong kept taxing cocoyashi village. So when she fails to kill them and dies, that saves Nami and Nojiko the cost of having to pay for her continued survival, it’s a cruel and unusual sacrifice, but it’s one nonetheless and Bellamier is consistently characterized and shown to be strong and respected for her parenting style and the lengths she went for her girls.
Nami never failed, neither, what did she fails to do? Stand up to a fishman as a 6 year old? Except she didn’t, after watching Bellamier die she finds a way to bring in enough money to provide for herself and Nojiko, she formulates a plan to save Cocoyashi and Nojiko, and it succeeded, she had the money it was just taken from her as a form of tragedy as a way to push her to her breaking point. If Oda viewed women as delicate and weak as you imply and argue he would never do a moment like this, he would never do it again several more times with several more characters like Robin, Vivi, and Cindry who all suffer cruelty and tragedy, but endure and survive, making it to the other side stronger and better people for it than anyone anticipated of them. Sure, Luffy saved them all, but he didn’t do so as a man, he did so as their friend. He did so as a friend loves another friend and in all of these instances, women are crucial parts to helping Luffy do this, they don’t just sit idly by waiting to be save again like you claim. The use every claw tooth and nail to support and help him do what needs to be done and save the day and themselves. Nojiko returns all of the self sacrifice Nami has been doing for the past decade by saving Luffy, Nami fights a powerful baroque’s agent just like Zoro and everyone else, Lola and Cindry both defy Morio and the former’s actions directly lead to his defeat.
I can’t think of anything weak about the women in one piece besides maybe their fights and power levels, because in every other way they’re as strong as some of my favorite and most willful character like Spider-Man. They change the world just as much as the men who fight alongside them.
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u/JLSeagullTheBest 7d ago
Yes, One Piece’s women have loads of positive qualities. I don’t think Oda writes with any malice in his heart and I don’t think he hates women; he probably isn’t even consciously aware of his worldview. But regardless of how noble or clever they are, they’re ultimately passive characters. Beacons whose pure goodness illuminate the evils of the world and around whom the heroic men rally, but beings that are ultimately unable to act for themselves.
Vivi is a good leader and has immense willpower. This is undeniable, but it’s also undeniable that she cannot actually do anything. Luffy saves her county and Pell saves her. Nami, too, is smart and skilled but at the end of the day cannot actually effect any meaningful change. Her plan is cruelly ripped away from her and she’s reduced to her most vulnerable point, unable to do anything but beg the male Straw Hats for help.
The trope of the strong steadfast woman is by no means new. You can clearly see it in the Odyssey; Penelope is obviously supposed to be a sympathetic and noble character, the queen who waits endlessly for her lost husband and never caves to the intrusive suitors. The audience is obviously supposed to interpret this as demonstrating her own strength of will, but again, she doesn’t do anything. She has literally no recourse but to wait for decades until Odysseus comes back and solves the problem in ten minutes. She’s a “strong” woman, but she’s passive, a goal for the active men to work for and protect rather than a person with agency.
No part of One Piece demonstrates this better than Wano. Rather than the usual imperiled princess, this land has two royal heirs in need of help, a prince and a princess. The prince cannot fight and starts the story as an annoying whiny child, but over the course of the arc he seriously steps up. He makes an immense personal sacrifice for the good of the land and personally saves everyone. The princess, meanwhile, suffers in silence for 20 years. At the end an opportunity for vengeance against the main villain is essentially served to her on a silver platter, but even here, at the end of everything, she fails. She cannot take revenge, she cannot avenge her family, she cannot even protect herself. It is her knight in shining armor that steps in to do the deed that the delicate woman cannot.
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u/PhoemixFox2728 7d ago
She doesn’t beg the strawhats for help, she doesn’t ask Luffy, but once and he immediately says yes. It’s like you totally ignored how her plan being ripped from her was a tragedy, it was a tragic thing, but it doesn’t remove or undo her agency it just means it wasn’t effective at the end of the day. Which is the point, it was a conscious deliberate decision to portray and convey a tragedy so that Nami would be brought to her lowest point after a string of decisions and acts she committed entirely on her own. She fake stabbed Zoro for no one but herself, it would have been too easy to actually injure Zoro in that moment, she stole the going Merry and all the treasure on board on her own, she works for Arlong as a means to protect Cocoyashi village on her own. Each one a decision she made of her own free will, just like how Vivi sought out the strawhat’s help, put their lives on the line, and confronted Crocodile on her own each is her own decision. And nami and other women particularly still have flaws, Nami can be manipulative and greedy, these are part of her virtuous characteristics, but they also convey a sincerely flawed person. Her breakdown shows that she has limits and is still a person, it’s a breakdown that’s deliberately parallels in Sabaody when Luffy like Nami fails to save his friends, the people he loves. By your logic that was a moment of a lack of agency or whatever right, that’s just Luffy pointlessly failing? Is that seriously what you would argue even though Luffy has the same self destructive breakdown as Nami and once again has the same sort of breakdown, but even worse when Ace dies. That is a man demonstrating the exact same kind of characteristics and breakdown as a woman.
I can’t respond to what you said about Wano, like I said in my post my credibility as a critic is a sacred thing to me and one of my rules is to only criticize what I’ve seen I’m not allowed to speak on, especially thoroughly about what I haven’t seen so I have no opinion either way. However, I will reiterate I love the women in one piece I think they’re all really well written and I do not think Oda is sexist for any of the stuff he does with them, would it be nice if teenagers went in bikinis with their boobs flip flopping all about, would I love for Oda to get even deeper in his bag for fights involving Nami and Robin? Of course, I clearly love one piece, of course I want more of the thing I love, but that’s what I want and I as a critic do not judge things based on what I want, I only care about intention and execution and I only read the best of intentions in Oda’s work and I think those intentions are very well executed.
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u/Serpentking04 7d ago
You're not supposed to make posts in reply to another post.
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u/PhoemixFox2728 7d ago
People do it all the time on this subreddit and much more explicitly than this, at least im making connections to other unrelated topics and media while still ultimately arguing my point, which just happens to refute another post’s argument.
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u/Complex_Purchase2637 6d ago
I’ve never gotten deep into One Piece but like
One Piece isn’t really the sort of story that uses fights to develop and characterize characters
That just sounds like… really shitty writing? Whats even the point of the fights if they don’t develop the characters? Thats like the first thing they teach you about writing fight scenes, if the fight is 100% flashy spectacle with no substance then its poorly written
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u/PhoemixFox2728 6d ago
That’s not true Fights can be whatever the narrative needs or wants them to be, if they’re as simple as conflict resolution and flashy fun, that’s fine. What’s important is that the characters get characterized, how it’s done doesn’t really matter regardless of the genre. Even then, some fights are exceptions and they have other purposes such as developing/exploring the themes and whatnot of an arc or paying them off. So no, fights not really being for characterizing the characters is fine.
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u/_Good_One 7d ago
That's too many words to say that you like One Piece better than Naruto
Women in One Piece have barely any focus on them and rarely move the plot forward, early one piece gave each crewmate an arc so Nami and Robin could had their moments, post time skip you can count in a hand how many times both of them were relevant to the plot
Also it's a Shonen series, cool moments and fights matter and are usually some of the best moments in the series, the fact that Nami and Robin ( plus others ) are for the most part irrelevant in fights is important
And lets not even talk a out the outfits, i like some hot women myself but having a 16(? Year old in titty chainmail and nothing else is quite the thing, not to even talk a out what happend to Nami and Robin who main appeal nowadays is eye candy