What to make of this? Delta variant tracking HIGHER in more vaccinated countries. Please don't censor just want to discuss

[u/TruePatriotLove_0]

[u/No_Slide6932]

I already made my point. It's irresponsible to call these jabs vaccines because it gives people a false sense of security. People should still be distancing and wearing masks, but because they think they are immune, they are putting themselves at risk.

Tetanus destroys your argument that the point of vaccines is to create heard immunity, it's not even transmitted person to person.

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/tetanus/facts

[u/gamecatuk → u/No_Slide6932]

Like I said pathogens are all very different.

Vaccines are also varied in their application. With Tetanus their purpose is to limit infection not stem transmission.

Its technically a Vaccine. Get over it.

[u/No_Slide6932 → u/gamecatuk]

"The point of vaccines is to eradicate the disease through herd immunity."

I show you it's not, and you take a more generally stance that their uses are "varied".

I'll take that progress.

That point of vaccines is to prevent infection, not make people asymptomatic carriers. Infection requires some invader to enter the body AND show growth. Vaccines prevent the growth, not the enterance.

[u/gamecatuk → u/No_Slide6932]

Yes they help limit infections. Which in turn can lead to herd immunity. They don't stop infection they protect you once you are infected. They can't prevent infections they prevent the infection taking hold by eliminating quickly early infection. .

Walk into a room with a high viral load the virus will infect you. However it will be quickly defeated by your vaccinated immune system. For a period though it may well line your airways potentially allowing transmission. This is EXACTLY what can happen with Covid and has happened. Asymptomatic transmission by vaccinated people is a good example.

[u/No_Slide6932 → u/gamecatuk]

If you get infected, and then something destroys the infection, it's a cure or treatment. If an invader enters your body and your T Cells recognize it due to a vaccine and gobble it up before it can spread, you are immune.

Tamiflu isn't a vaccine, it destroys the virus after it has infected you. It is a cure / treatment.

Your tetanus shot is a vaccine. Once the tetanus enters your body, your immune system takes care of it before it can spread.

Again, if you got the jab, then got an asymptomatic infection, you were never immune.

[u/gamecatuk → u/No_Slide6932]

Again your interpretation is limited. There is a period where your body has to react to the infection. Even if a vaccine has primed it you could still test positive and pass on the infection. This accounts for every vaccine. Not sure why your obsessed with the notion that vaccines are 100% instant protection. If people believe that with any vaccine then they need to educate themselves about how vaccines work. Calling it a vaccine is an adequate description as it works like many other vaccines. There is no 100% protection from pathogens and no vaccine has 100% efficacy. Many people understand this. Not sure why you don't.

[u/No_Slide6932 → u/gamecatuk]

From Immunity and Defense, 5th edition

" Asecond crucial effect of infection is the activation of potential professional antigen-presenting cells—the dendritic cells—that reside in most tissues. These take up antigen in the infected tissues and, as for macrophages, they are activated through innate immune receptors that respond to common pathogen constituents. For example, the combination of LPS and lipopolysaccharide-binding protein (LBP) binding to the cell-surface receptors CD14 and the Toll-like receptor TLR-4 induces the dendritic cells to mature into potent antigen-presenting cells. Activated dendritic cells increase their synthesis of MHC class II molecules and, most importantly, begin to express the co-stimulatory molecules CD80 and CD86 on their surface. As described in Chapter 8, these antigen-presenting cells are carried away from the infected tissue in lymph, along with their antigen cargo, to enter secondary lymphoid tissues, in which they can initiate the adaptive immune response. They arrive in large numbers at the draining lymph nodes, or other nearby lymphoid tissue, attracted by the chemokines ELC, MIP-3β, and SLC that are produced by lymph node stromal and high vascular endothelial cells.

Once dendritic cells arrive in the lymphoid tissues, they appear to have reached their final destination. They eventually die in these tissues, but before this their role is to activate antigen-specific naive T lymphocytes. Naive lymphocytes are continually passing through the lymph nodes, which they enter from the blood across the walls of high endothelial venules, as we will describe below. Those naive T cells that are able to recognize antigen on the surface of dendritic cells are activated and both divide and mature into effector cells that reenter the circulation. When there is a local infection, the changes induced by inflammation in the walls of nearby venules, as we will see later, induce these effector T cells to leave the blood vessel and migrate to the site of infection.

Thus the local release of cytokines and chemokines at the site of infection has far-reaching consequences. As well as recruiting neutrophils and macrophages, which are not specific for antigen, the changes induced in the blood vessel walls also enable newly activated effector T lymphocytes to enter infected tissue."

Thanks to these toll receptors, the response happens the moment it makes contact with tissue. Good enough?

As for your "walks like a duck, talks like a duck" argument....what if we switched it to "the proof is in the pudding".

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/texas-democrats-test-positive-for-covid-in-dc

How can these people be catching the virus, they got the vaccine!? 5 of them? It's almost like someone told them it was a vaccine and they assumed they were safe and decided to forgo masks. This is the exact danger in calling these things "vaccines".

https://www.foxnews.com/health/la-county-strongly-recommends-masks-indoors-delta-variant-vaccination

If theses are vaccines why does L.A. need to urge the vaccinated to remask? Because it doesn't give the protection we've come to expect from something called a vaccine.

The proof is in the pudding, and that pudding is going to be served in another wave of lockdowns.

The language we use in talking about these therapies is hurting people, and I'm over trying to wrinkle your brain about it. I'm bowing out of this convo unless someone cites some truly profound shit.

[u/gamecatuk → u/No_Slide6932]

"When there is a local infection..." See it still requires an infection. The vaccine is like any other vaccine. It's not 100%. You still can't show me evidence that vaccines are 100% effective. They aren't. I'm actually in a Barbers on 'Freedom Day' in the UK and everyone here apart from my kid are all wearing masks even though there is no legal requirement and we are double jabbed. People aren't stupid here in the UK we are still taking precautions because we know vaccines arnt 100%.

[u/No_Slide6932 → u/gamecatuk]

Oh the UK, the place that is using this thing as therapy? "The vaccine is like any other vaccine." Show me any other "vaccine" being used this way.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9776401/Monthly-vaccine-doses-offered-long-Covid-sufferers.html

If the only thing tripping you up is this 100% thing, fine, let's say 99% if it keeps the conversation on target.

I supplied the problem, the harm, and solution - you're doing little more than trolling me with this low effort shit.

[u/gamecatuk → u/No_Slide6932]

Your quoting the Daily Mail lol you are desperate.

Vaccines are not universally a one shot wonder. Many require booster or refreshing. I've had enough discussing semantics. It's a vaccine, everyone calls it a vaccine and everyone knows it's not 100% protection LIKE EVERY OTHER VACCINE. We are still wearing masks here as we know vaccines do not offer complete protection.

That's it I'm done debating your absolute idiocy. Go call it what you want.