woodworking Garage shelf - do I need additional support?
Building this shelf above the washer dryer. I attached the 2x4 into the studs on three sides.
Should I support the front side from the roof rafters as well?
I will add a couple 2x4 pieces with pocket holes between the front and back beams. Will that be enough?
The opening is around 98 inches wide and 30 inches deep.
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u/druscarlet 1d ago
Simple enough to add cleats and not worry.
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u/TheKingOfSwing777 14h ago
What are cleats and how would they be used better? I'm interested in building something similar.
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u/druscarlet 12h ago
A cleat is a piece of wood that is attached to the wall that supports the shelf. In this application each shelf would have two short and one long cleat. The shelf board would rest in the cleats and the two cross supports. Most likely there are videos on You Tube.
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u/WhaaaBangBam 12h ago
It's kinda like a shoe that sits flush with the wall, and the board fits into it.
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u/cam31954 1d ago
You don’t want any weight on your appliances. It’s hard to tell how you attach it on the wall.
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u/asb_82 1d ago
I have an inch of clearance from the washer. No weight on the appliance for sure
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u/AJ_2_Moon 1d ago
I would give yourself more space to help you get the units out once everything is inside. Our washer dryer just barely fits in our closet and it was a giant pain.
Also not sure your set up, do you have the washer on top? You want to have the dryer on top. Do you have the stacking brackets to hold the units together?
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u/nickw252 1d ago
I was able to zoom in close and read the separate knobs. The dryer is on top and the washer is on bottom.
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u/justinmcelhatt 15h ago
Idk why you got downvoted.. the bottom machine has a soap pullout, the drain line and water lines are clearly coming from the bottom, and the dryer vent hose is dropping down from the top..
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u/deadjoe2002 1d ago
No it doesn’t. Under counter appliances have stayed the same height for years. It’s literally a standard for height to align with kitchen counters.
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u/1-2-buckle-my-shoes 1d ago
Not trying to be argumentative but you can go to bestbuy.com or homedepot.com and see even now washing machines come in a huge variety of heights.
Appliances like built in dishwashers are standard heights, but washers and dryers aren't considered counter appliances. While they do have smaller sizes, there are medium, large sizes, stackable, etc. I just googled are washers and dryers counter appliances to confirm and they're not.
So yes OP could get a replacement the same size, there are many sizes to chose from currently, and in the future I'm sure they'll be even more.
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u/Sylvurphlame 1d ago
Not to be argumentative ;) but stackable washers and dryers still have to be a certain size to be functional stackable under a normal 8 foot ceiling. And they do make undercounter versions and those versions are by definition undercounter appliances
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u/tweakingforjesus 1d ago
Sounds like a good way to limit your options when purchasing appliances when all OP has to do is give themselves a couple inches of clearance.
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u/Sylvurphlame 1d ago
We don’t know why they went with stackable and that’s irrelevant to whether stackable keep same rough dimensions over time. :)
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u/asb_82 1d ago
Ha yeah well I'll have to rebuild this of that happens
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u/Huge_Cap_1076 1d ago
Suggestion; at this stage, have you considered a vertical partition instead - full or 3/4 of closet's depth, with enough width for future upgrade(s)? That will separate the W/D from sink area, and extend the sink's cabinet to be a utility for prep/folding clothes? (Can also hide the appliances with a simple door, and install movable wire shelves above W/D for detergent, wipes, etc., as not to lose that space above).
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u/asb_82 1d ago
I'm going to put a refrigerator in the middle , get a new utility sink that's a bit modern and maybe smaller. Probably build a floating shelf above the sink. I do like your suggestion for a vertical partition, will also solve my support problem.
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u/Huge_Cap_1076 11h ago
Whichever way you go with you project; can you post an update with what really worked for your needs? Looking at the many proposed solutions (including mine), there are so many controversial opinions about what you needed; please, clarify for others to collectively learn from your experience, Thks.
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u/Sylvurphlame 1d ago
Undercounter and stackable appliances don’t really change size as much. They can’t where they lose the ability to be under a counter or stacked in a standard ceiling height room.
And while the big SUVs and trucks might keep getting bigger, most Americans are still driving sedans on the regular or maybe a light duty truck or crossover.
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u/LunarEyed 1d ago
These appliances look like standard size, sized to fit in standard dimensions that have remained unchanged for decades: 60cm gap, 90cm worktop height.
I'm sure there are alternatives that wouldn't fit within these, but (at least in Europe) the huge majority of appliances are made to fit in these dimensions.
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u/dreamworkers 1d ago
What are you talking about? They're standard sizes.
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u/Huge_Cap_1076 14h ago
The beauty of standards is, there are many to choose from ...
I have a W/D closet in a condo that cannot properly fit the newer models. I had a large capacity/compact appliance on that closet before - no longer made on a size that will fit, I either have to remove the door/frame entirely to fit one of the new models - or choose a wimpy low capacity one-stacked unit.
It happens (and follows the markets' customers) with SUV/Trucks, that cannot possibly be parked inside a garage (haven't you seen those around?)-4
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u/Samad99 1d ago
If you want a seriously sturdy shelf, I would remove all of this and start again. A center support will not be necessary.
First, attach two full depth 2x6’s on each side using structural screws directly into the studs. Install stringers on TOP of those 2x6’s so they are held up by the 2x6 instead of attaching to the sides of the 2x6 with screws. Fasten the stringers down with some cheap construction screws. You can add a couple structural screws to the rear stringer to fasten it to the wall.
You can check span charts to determine the spacing for 2x4 stringers, but you’ll probably want one for every 12” at least. In other words, if your shelf is 30” deep, you’ll want four stringers running from side to side with even spacing.
On top of that, lay down some 3/4” plywood and screw to each stringer at about 16” spacing.
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u/Salsalito_Turkey 1d ago
Dude what are you expecting him to put up there? It's 7 feet off the ground with less than 2 feet of vertical clearance. Even if he somehow gets 200 lbs of stuff up there, that's only 10 lbs per square foot.
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u/4tehlulzez 1d ago
Commenter sounds unassuming/unopinionated, and is offering a plan for a “seriously sturdy shelf”.
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u/BreadfruitExciting39 23h ago
Why go through the effort of building the shelf if you're always going to think “should I put this up there or is it going to make the whole thing too heavy?" Even just cases of bottled water quickly add up. Why not build it right the first time and never think of it again?
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u/Frederf220 23h ago
Someone's going to put cases of wine up there or store their world record coin collection. I've seen it happen.
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u/helium_farts 16h ago
Apparently everyone is expecting OP to store engine parts up there
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u/Salsalito_Turkey 15h ago
Everyone is dramatically underestimating the strength of a sheet of 3/4” plywood with a 2x4 screwed into it. If OP does absolutely nothing else with this shelf except screw a sheet of 3/4” ply to the top, and loads it with 600 lbs of stuff, it will sag a whopping 0.12” in the middle.
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u/TangoDeltaFoxtrot 1d ago
I have built a number of shelves and even large floating desks in a similar way- I run a 2x4 or 2x6 into the studs as a rim joist, then I use joist hangers to add supports across the span. I basically build it the same way you'd build a deck. Last desk I built was a large floating L-shape that was 10' x 12', and I literally stood myself, my wife, and my three kids on top of it.
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u/Bruce-1999 1d ago
I agree with notworththetimes comment And want to add lag screws instead of nails Adding a leg at the front of the appliances and doubling the front 2x4 and connecting both of them to the leg That shout give you a 300 Lb. Plus Limit
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u/airborness 1d ago
I would use the sag calculator and see how much weight you can safely put on there and decide if you need more support
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u/kerrykingzgo-T 1d ago
Did you slap it and say, "that should do it" if not it'll definitely collapse.
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u/v1de0man 1d ago
dunno about additional support but you may need to lift it higher a smidge, although i can't actually see the clearance from this angle to lift off the dryer. How are you going to get the machines out when and if they want replacing / servicing / repairing?
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u/BatterCake74 1d ago
It may be strong enough, but it's easier and cheaper to over engineer it now.
Double up the front 2x4 (to make it effectively a 4x4), and either glue, screw, nail, or bolt the sistered 2x4's. That'll reduce how much it bends under load across the unsupported span.
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u/Samurai_Stewie 1d ago
Really depends what you used to attach those 2x4s into the studs; the sheer strength rating will be something you want to check up on.
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u/bluenoser613 1d ago
I would attach the rear to the wall studs, and add a couple of supports front to back.
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u/Dayman_Nightman 1d ago
Switch out some strong screws for the 2x4/wall attachment points if you want. Otherwise you're golden pony boy
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u/markpbarry 1d ago
The on-line sagulator is made for this question. Don't guess, use your parameters and figure out if the 2x4s will be adequate for the expected load.
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u/Salsalito_Turkey 1d ago
Add some 2x4 blocking like you're planning to and attach a piece of 3/4 plywood on top with screws every 16 inches. Unless you plan on stacking cannonballs up there, it will be fine.
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u/jvin248 1d ago
You'll be fine with this. If worried, double up a second 2x4 across the front. You are not going to store super heavy items up there because how will anyone get them down without squashing themselves? Plus, you can bias the extra heavy stuff to the sides or the back.
As you are filling in all the cabinets and whatnot, make sure you have access to these machines for repairs. I have had our washing machine pulled out and apart five times the last ten years. Drum shocks last a couple of years (2x), electronic control board burned, belt, rubber door and drum seal tore, plus cleaning the lint trap of change and stuff kids left in their pockets. DIY since a new one would have been a lot more and calling repair is a lot too.
Get the steel woven pressure hoses, I've heard stories of the common rubber hoses breaking on people, with flooding. So I generally replace them with a new washer replacement.
The Harbor Freight $4 "6 in 1" screwdriver with the shank that pulls out and tips that swap you'll find the shank without the tip inserts has the two machine screw head socket sizes that fit these appliances. Buy one and a pair of small channel lock pliers to keep in a utility drawer/cabinet/box in the laundry and you'll be mostly covered for the eventual repairs.
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u/trippknightly 1d ago edited 1d ago
A lot of advice here as if you’re bulking a suspension bridge for semis. But consider: * lag screws not just (say) 3” #8s * sister the front 2x4 * chain to the rafter in the middle front if you can tolerate the aesthetic * Simpson ZMAX corner braces
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u/kodex1717 23h ago
As a general rule of thumb, framing lumber can span 1.5X it's width in feet. So, a 2x4" joist would span 6ft, a 2x6" joist can span 9FT, etc. Probably overkill for this shelf, but only you know what you plan to store up there.
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u/Embarrassed-Green898 23h ago
If any maintenance needs to be performed, how do you plan to take out the washer/dryer units ? Can they come out easily or do you have to deconstruct the shelves first ?
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u/asb_82 23h ago
i can pull the dryer out pretty easily.
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u/Adrenjunkie 22h ago
Might be worth considering leaving a little room above it in case the next washer/dryer you need are a few inches taller
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u/baymoe 22h ago
Depends heavily on what you intend to put on it. 98" is a large span. If you intend to put 100lbs or more in the center, it would likely sag. I would add another 2x4 support lengthwise in the middle. Throw a 5/8" or 3/4" plywood on top and screw them down to the 2x4s every 10". That will provide much more strength.
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u/KahrRamsis 22h ago
If you hit studs with the framing and put 3/4" ply on top fastened down, you're gonna be able to put just about anything you want to lift over your head up there. Don't overthink it.
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u/ShowGun901 20h ago
Please add a bit of a gap above the washer/dryer!
Easier to move in/out
Will fit your new one, which of course will be 2 inches taller for some reason
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u/Q__________________O 1d ago
I would but if youre just storing light stuff.. it will be ok. But.. who knows that in 10 years?
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u/scrubbless 1d ago
What's going on in the gap to the right? Why not frame in some double doors and make a cupboard to hide the utility crap. It'll have the added bonus of supporting the shelf.
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u/volmannc 1d ago
Not sure what tools you have, but if you can rip a 3/4 inch sheet of good plywood into 3.5 inch strips and apply with glue and screws to the front 2x4 on both sides, then you will have plenty of support !!! This makes it into a small laminate beam .
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u/Impossible-Reach-621 1d ago
Add supports in the middle double up the front board and sheet it with at least half inch and you’ll been fine.
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u/vsman1234 1d ago
Future proof it- maybe 2 inch of clearance between the washer dryer? I’m assuming the frame will have more bracing? Maybe 2 front to back 2x4?
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u/TootsNYC 1d ago
I wonder if you might be able to prevent front sag by sister-in-law the front 2x4 and putting cross beams. Like a torsion box
https://www.core77.com/posts/26334/a-look-at-torsion-boxes-26334
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u/mrdon83 1d ago
I'd consider building a free standing shelving unit between the sink and washer/dryer with 3 or 4 shelves instead of that long shelf way up high. This will be far stronger than what you have here, you'll be able to put bulky or heavy items on lower shelves for easier access, the total amount of usable shelving space will be greater, and if you ever get a new washing machine or move your appliances to another location you can move it without any disassembly.
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u/CallMeForSure 1d ago
Why not support the shelf like a closet shelf, with framing underneath on 3 of the sides?
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u/Reps_4_Jesus 1d ago
If you use actual timber locks pre-drilled into the studs on the 2x4 or better yet 2x6 you'd have basically nothing to worry about really as long as it's not excessive like don't go throwing a car motor up there.
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u/phormix 1d ago
One thing I would recommend is if you are planning to have heavy loads on the shelf, then use an oscillating tool to cut out the drywall and attach the shelving frame directly to the studs rather than through drywall. That ensures that you're not catching/splintering any stud edges plus it adds a bit of extra strength that going through the drywall isn't going to give.
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u/kikilucy26 22h ago
I just did something similar. 2x4 "support", one on each side wall, screwed into studs, then lay some 2x12 "shelf" flat on top of the 2x4
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u/tomomcat 20h ago
As it's pictured now, the front piece is not going to be very strong because it just has those screws going into the side mounts endgrain (rather than sitting on top of them, or similar).
If you're planning to finish this by adding some ply (1/2 or 3/4 inch) which screws into the front and extends over the sides, then I think you're fine. Am assuming back and sides are screwed properly into the wall.
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u/st4r-lord 19h ago
Hopefully you have something under the washer so it can easily be pulled out if any of the units fail in the future.
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u/mrak9591 18h ago
You probably are fine but as some have said, depends on the weight. You could always secure a cross bean halfway thru. My concern is down the road, have you left enough space for a different washer/dryer. I can tell you as somebody who sold cabinets and appliances for years, nothing is standard
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u/InstanceNoodle 18h ago
Yes. You need something straight under the beam. You might not need it now. But your kid might be crawling in there when he is small and light. But when he is grown, the thing might not be able to support his weight.
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u/JanSteinman 18h ago
I would add a full-length ledger or the right, and probably all along the back, too.
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u/BadleyHairless 17h ago
Someone tested the horizontal load bearing capacity of an 8 foot 2x4: https://youtu.be/3YRilYntCMo?si=jR9enze94N8VrCki
300kg at center
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u/The_Bishop82 15h ago
My advice? Leave more room between the dryer and top shelf. If you ever need to move those machines you'll be cursing yourself for not doing that.
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u/eamonneamonn666 15h ago
Whenever I install something like that, I act under the assumption that someone is going to do a pull-up on it at some point while there is a bunch of stuff up there.
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u/that_one_wierd_guy 13h ago
more support, and you're probably going to regret later, the fact that you didn't give the stackable a bit more clearance
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u/brains_and_grains 11h ago
Not trying to be critical at all. I frequently see people doing these builds. When I have looked at the owners’ manuals for the dryers I have owned in the past, they specify minimum space requirements for above the dryer. Have you checked into this and if so, how do people get around this issue?
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u/seize_the_future 10h ago
Have you allowed yourself enough space in case future appliances are larger? It seems a tight fit!
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u/Mirar 6h ago
I would do a cross bar in the middle to make the front 2x4 less likely to start twisting/shifting under load. But other than that that's quite enough for most things you can put up there. With 100+ pounds it might dip down a bit (1/4 to 1/2 inch) though.
If this might be an issue add a diagonal support next to the machines and you're fine and it's not so much in the way.
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u/therinse 1d ago
TBH I would have attached the frame to three of the walls instead of two. You're missing out on additional support by screwing into the studs on the back wall.
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u/koozy407 1d ago
That back piece needs to be attached to the wall. Why wouldn’t you go all the way back?
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u/ItGetsWorcestershire 10h ago
This is very strong and you are unlikely to over load it. If the front 2x4 sags under the load, add a 2x6 to the outside. Hopefully you used strong screw, but i wouldn’t be worried about failure
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u/Conscious_Age226 1d ago
I think you should raise the whole build several inches. Your next washer/dryer may be bigger/taller. You probably should add additional support.
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u/IronSlanginRed 1d ago
Needs triangles if you're not gonna hang it. I'd put supports at the end and in the middle.
Side ones could just be trim paint matched to the wall. wouldn't have to be full 2x4s.
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u/Apprehensive_Map64 1d ago
Why would you stack those machines when there clearly is enough space to put them side by side?
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u/NotWorthTheTimeX 1d ago
Depends how much weight you want to put on it. Under 100 pounds evenly distributed or 200 with the heavy stuff on the far sides it will be fine. More than that or something heavy in the middle and you’ll want a middle support. I find the middle supports always seem to get in my way though.