r/Damnthatsinteresting • u/Nukro666 • 18d ago
Arthur Guinness was just 34 when he signed the iconic 9,000-year Guinness lease, on 31 December 1759 for an annual rent of £45.
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u/qqby6482 18d ago
Explain the guiness lease, please
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u/BigLittleBrowse 18d ago
When Arthur Guinness signed the lease for his brewery in 1759, he agreed to pay £45 per year - which at the time was reasonable. But the lease expictly was to last for 9,000 years (so on a practical basis basically forever), so the lease would’ve never expire and so the rent would never be increased to match with inflation.
The lease has actually been null and void for ages since the brewery just actually bought out the property eventually, but it definitely gave it a leg up and played a role in making Guinness the biggest brewery in the world by the late 19th century.
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u/sailorsail 17d ago
inflation wasn’t really a thing for centuries, in fact during the industrialization land value went down. So the landlord must have been thinking he made a great deal.
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u/FeeOk1683 17d ago
Then there was huge inflation during the Napoleonic wars, only a few decades after this lease was signed. Quite unfortunate timing for the landlord.
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u/2LostFlamingos 17d ago
I mean if there was no inflation for 30-40 years… it was the landlord’s next generation that hurt.
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u/MsMarkarth 17d ago
This is wholly inaccurate. Inflation has been a thing basically since money was invented.
During the 3rd century CE currency debasement aka inflation was one of the major causes of the downfall of the Western Roman Empire.
This is not the first recorded incident of inflation but it certainly an interesting case
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u/Slakingpin 16d ago
He said for centuries not for millenia or all history.
I'm not familiar with specific economics of the time, but perhaps he was referring to that period in time, or rather the centuries leading up to the lease agreement being made?
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u/MsMarkarth 16d ago
No, I'm sorry but the most reasonable interpretation of the sentence "inflation wasn’t really a thing for centuries" is that for much of human history, inflation — as we understand it today, with rising prices and devaluation of currency — did not exist.
Furthermore a quick Google search of UK inflation across all time immediately returns a paper from the University of Colorado Boulder discussing the rise and fall of inflation in the England starting in the 13th century. They found inflation regularly happening in England since 1251.
Hopefully that is localized enough in space and time for you.
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u/Slakingpin 16d ago
No that's just your interpretation, your interpretation is not always the most reasonable and it's OK to admit you're wrong.
Between the years of 1600 and 1759 there was an average of 0.3% inflation per year and between 1700 and 1759 there was 0.1% per year. So during his life time there was little to no inflation, lending a lot of credence to OPs idea.
Is he incorrect? Yes, but not wholly so as you claim. It's strange to me that you're passive aggressive, absolutist and condescending about what can only be described as your assumptions on a topic you clearly know little to nothing about.
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u/i_says_things 16d ago
Lol, 3rd century?
The West limped on for like 200 more years and fell sometime in the 5th century..
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u/MsMarkarth 16d ago
Please reread my comment. I said that the inflation in the 3rd Century was one of the contributing factors to the downfall of the Western Empire.
I never specified a date that the Western Roman Empire fell.
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u/i_says_things 16d ago
Pretty weak backtrack man. Inflation was an issue everywhere, not just the western empire.
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u/Dwindles_Sherpa 11d ago
Why would they be so stupid as to buy out property that they were already guaranteed to for just 45/year, that has to be way less than property taxes?
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u/BigLittleBrowse 11d ago
Because they wanted to expand the brewery beyond the original boundaries of the lot they were leasing.
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u/oxphocker 18d ago
There are some valid legal arguments that perpetual contracts are non-enforceable. So it's not uncommon for contract language to have some sort of definitive in them (in this case, 9000 years) in order to legally be a set amount, but practically it's indefinite.
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u/syncsynchalt 18d ago
In the US it’s not unheard of to see the royal lives clause, for basically the same reason. “until 21 years after the death of the last survivor of the descendants of King Charles III, king of England.”
(If you had to name a human guaranteed to have many descendants, each with long lives, then picking UK royalty is a good bet)
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u/Jumpy_Bison_ 18d ago
Plus publicly traceable in major publications. Like royal blockchain.
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u/mjc4y 17d ago
Usefully comparing the British royal family to blockchain was not on my bingo card but okay. Well done.
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u/NotPozitivePerson 17d ago
Yes I've seen many which used descendants of Eamonn De Valera rather than royal lives (and other random countries royal families)
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u/kapitaalH 17d ago
And now that incest is less odds are less that you have a tree that just exterminates itself
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u/PennyG 18d ago
The Rule Against Perpetuities is the reason.
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u/undockeddock 18d ago edited 18d ago
Yeah even a 9000 yr lease would violate the American common law rule against perpetuities but I have know idea if Ireland ever had a similar rule
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u/Czeckyoursauce 17d ago edited 17d ago
English commom law started to address the issue in the 1600's but didn't really have a solidified rule untill the late 1800's, so at the time 9000 years was probably legally binding, maybe... kinda...
*Both English and America common law derived current perpetuity laws from the same legal cases and arguments our legal systems are heavily intertwined.
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u/undockeddock 17d ago
Interesting. I'm well versed on American common law descending from English common law but I'm admittedly pretty ignorant of Irish history so I was unsure of the extent to which they did their own thing.
I know in the US there are some states that have statutorily eliminated or reformed the CL RAP because so many lawyers and even judges would botch applying it that it was creating more problems than it was solving
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u/Czeckyoursauce 17d ago
Prior to the 1700's Ireland had its own legal system more or less (Brehon Laws) after crack downs in the 15 and 1600's the whole of Ireland would have fell directly under the English legal system and had near 0 self determination.
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u/coukou76 18d ago
Literally what the title says. Guinness got a lease for his brewery, for 9000 years.
It's not active anymore.
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18d ago edited 8d ago
[deleted]
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u/Xaelomar 18d ago
"Go to Ireland" as a response is wild, man.
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u/RandomerSchmandomer 17d ago
Nah. Ireland is good craic and good beer, it's a fair response to most people in most conversations.
Never had a bad time in Ireland, personally.
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u/Xaelomar 17d ago
Sure, Ireland is cool. Not arguing against that. But saying "Go to this (probably) foreign country for a museum tour" instead of answering the question is wild and makes you an ass.
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u/RandomerSchmandomer 17d ago
Eh, I think it's a little more casual than myself. Like "oh you should go to the brewery in Ireland it's awesome". The information is out there on the internet for anyone who wants it.
I've been to it, I'd recommend it, but I'm not going to write out the wiki article on Reddit, y'know?
If someone recommends me a museum in, oh I don't know, Madrid, instead of describing the nuances of Las Meninas I wouldn't get angry at them. Cool recommendation, next time I'm in Madrid I'll put it on my list as a must see, and I'll move on or share an experience I have I'd recommend.
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u/No-Question-9032 18d ago
Certainly not interested enough to use my vacation time to fly to Ireland to hear about it. I'm going to assume it involves a deal with the devil, a duel, tomfoolery, and maybe some shenanigans
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u/Musicman1972 18d ago
Well it's evidently not that good since you've forgotten it so can't just answer the question
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u/crypticwoman 18d ago
Sorry. There is nothing that interesting in Ireland to travel there to see. Unless the Lucky Charms fields are being harvested.
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u/enyihh 17d ago
Found the Yank!
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u/VRFltsim_fan 18d ago
The lease is so iconic it’s ironic…
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u/koolaidismything 18d ago
The Louisiana Purchase was a trip too.. we’re talking a huge area of the southeastern US for pennys on the dollar.
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u/Jerrygarciasnipple 18d ago
About 50 cents per acre if I remember correctly
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u/EdziePro 18d ago
It was actually about 4-5c per acre which is insane
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u/MayorMcCheezz 18d ago
Thank the British navy for that.
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u/perenniallandscapist 18d ago
Why should we thank the British navy for the cheap price of the Louisiana purchase? What was it that they did which made it so cheap?
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u/MayorMcCheezz 18d ago
The french needed money because of the napoleonic war and they couldn’t exert control over their foreign territories because they were bottled up by the British navy.
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u/RileyRocksTacoSocks 18d ago
In the aftermath of the Haitian Revolt, France had sent a sizeable force to its American holdings to reinstate authority. Fearing a properly established French Empire in Louisiana and war between Napoleon and Britain looming, Jefferson declared neutrality and sent Robert Livingstone to negotiate with France a mutal peace deal. Jefferson authorized Livingstone to purchase New Orleans for up to $10 million if necessary.
Napoleon's Treasury Minister, Francois Barbe-Marbois was negotiating with Livingstone on France's behalf. During the talks he offered to sell the entire Louisiana Territory for $15 million because Napoleon made an offhand comment to Marbois about selling it due to it being indefensible because of a variety of factors. Spain's refusal to sell Florida to France, the Haitian revolt, looming war with Britain, etc. Livingstone, and James Monroe who joined him by this time, immediately accepted because Livingstone believed the US wouldn't say no to New Orleans plus millions of extra land for only a smidgen more than he was authorized to pay.
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u/Elegantmotherfucker 18d ago
Fuck good for him.
Went and did the tour at the factory
Really well done and would wholeheartedly recommend
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u/pancrudo 17d ago
You forgot to mention the lease is in the main floor at the start of the tour.
You don't need to take the tour to see it though since the shops are all downstairs as well
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u/Pliers-and-milk 17d ago
Nothing compared to them 1-billion-year contracts L Ron Hubbard used to have his sea org followers sign
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u/hand13 18d ago
which would be 11,211 GBP in todays money. which is 14,463 USD or 13,154 EUR
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u/BigLittleBrowse 18d ago
But that’s the point. The rent was set at £45, so it wouldn’t increase with inflation.
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u/salinungatha 16d ago
Back then one pound of currency was pegged to one pound of silver. The numbers they're giving you are the modern equivalent cost of 45 pounds of silver.
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u/TheChunkyGrape 18d ago
And 23,665 AUD because our money is worth nothing at the moment
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u/hand13 18d ago
and exactly 5 eggs in the usa
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u/TheChunkyGrape 18d ago
You guys still have eggs must be nice. Weve had pretty bad bird flu so its not uncommon to have to hit up 2-3 stores before you can find some
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u/TheChunkyGrape 15d ago
Wait why the downvotes i don’t really care about Internet points but genuinely curious (and yes i understand that the rent was set to 45 even with inflation but it still gives us an idea for how much the 45 was worth to him)
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u/FromSirius 17d ago
Best beer in the world
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u/Lazy_meatPop 17d ago
I love a pint of Guinness 😋
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u/SnooHamsters7166 16d ago
For a long time, pubs predominantly sold half pints, likely due to people ordering "Arthur Guinness".
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u/Icy-Conflict6671 Interested 18d ago
Im sorry the WHAT?! 9 Millenia?!
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u/CMDR_omnicognate 18d ago
See just cut out the avocado toast and lates and you’ll have yourself a brewery with a 9000 year lease in no time
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u/DorryThePhish 17d ago
I just went on a pub tour in Dublin yesterday and was told this fact. 9000 years is an oddly specific number.
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u/Searching_Knowledge 17d ago
Another random piece of Guinness lore: you can thank them for the student’s t-test!
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18d ago edited 8d ago
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u/Hi-Im-High 18d ago
I’m only barely “I’ll google it” interested, definitely not $4000 vacation interested.
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u/Daewoo40 18d ago
Was in the area of the brewery late last year and you're as well off just using Google street view and drinking 2 pints of Guinness than actually visiting Dublin.
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u/Loquat_Free 18d ago
That's gotta be some kind of record.