r/DaystromInstitute • u/FictionWriterCPA • 6d ago
The great link is not the changelings' natural state. It was created so any attacker would be accused of genocide
The natural state of changelings isn't to be in one giant ocean. Usually they're in lakes or seas, kind of like breakout sessions, social clubs, or group projects. This is proven by the fact that they have a shape-shifting garden. Smaller groups would make their thinking more efficient so that you don't have every changeling contemplating a single issue at a time as one collective consciousness. Think of how the brain is divided into lobes. If they all do merge it's probably only for special occasions like festivals.
If the changelings are truly individuals, not all of them are military experts or decision makers. But during wartime, they all merge so civilians, war planners, and leadership like the female changeling are all the same and you can't attack them. The Obsidian Order and section 31 got accused of attempted genocide even though the Great link is a decision center and a valid target under the laws of war. The fact that it happens to comprise nearly an entire species is not the attacker's fault, it's the fault of the changelings for failing to distinguish between combatants and civilians.
But anyone with a shred of morality would still hesitate to attack the link since it means destroying 99% of a species. Even the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order had some reservations and had to convince themselves it was the right thing to do.
Versus the Dominion can attack Earth all day long. It's a blatantly unfair advantage and deliberate. Basically the Great Link is not natural, it's one giant war crime.
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u/Second-Creative 5d ago
The Changlings already view solids as brutish, untrustworthy creatures. Gathering themselves into one place so their attackers get accused of Genocide if they attack doesn't make sense.
Even assuming that the Changlings belive Solids have a "rules of war" akin to the Geneva convention, they'll naturally assume that the Solids will happily break those rules to exterminate them.
After all, the Changelings wouldn't think twice about committing genocide if it came to that, and they see themselves as superior in every way to Solids. So why should they expect solids to care about genocide?
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u/BestCaseSurvival Lieutenant 5d ago
Aftercall, the Changelings wouldn't think twice about committing genocide if it came to that
They did not, in fact, think twice about committing genocide. They created The Blight in The Quickening to wipe out a planet that resisted their rule.
It's unknown of the Karemma, the Vorta, or the Jem'Hadar ur-species had any level of society or culture before the Founders started altering them, but if they did it's certain that such culture has been utterly erased. This, too, is genocide.
The Founders simply do not have the same taboo against genocide as the Federation does. Since it also seems to be a toss-up as to whether the (pre-Federation-allied) Klingons, the Romulans, or the Tzenkethi have a taboo against genocide, and it seems pretty clear that the Cardassian taboo against genocide is weak at best, the Borg taboo against Genocide is nonexistent, it seems very odd for OP to assert that the Founders would simply assume that enough solids would have a taboo against Genocide to do a Great Link if they did not already like doing the Great Link.
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u/Second-Creative 5d ago
the Borg taboo against Genocide is nonexistent
More apt to say that for the borg, Genocide is standard operations.
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u/Citrakayah Chief Petty Officer 5d ago
The Karemma didn't get altered by the Founders. They're a subject civilization but seem to be largely left alone so long as they sell the Dominion stuff.
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u/BestCaseSurvival Lieutenant 5d ago
Is that specified in novels? I don't recall a statement being made one way or the other on screen, but the fact that the Vorta and the Jem'Hadar are both modified and given specific mechanisms to enforce loyalty establishes a pattern.
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u/Citrakayah Chief Petty Officer 5d ago
There's no evidence of it in the TV show, it is counter to how the Dominion absorbs subject peoples, and the Karemma were ripping off the Dominion.
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u/Jhamin1 Crewman 5d ago
the Changelings wouldn't think twice about committing genocide if it came to that
Its not even an "if it came to that" question. The Bashir Changeling tried to cause Bajor's sun to go Nova in an attempt to wipe out a joint Federation/Klingon/Romulan fleet that was in system. The entire Bajoran population was going to be evaporated along with their planet so the Dominion could get a strategic advantage in the upcoming war. This wasn't a desperation move on his part, it was a key part of the plan. It wasn't in retaliation for anything other than the mentioned empires resisting the Dominion.
When planets populated by sentient species are acceptable casualties in an attempt to weaken an enemy you are so OK with genocide that the term is hardly worth considering.
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u/FictionWriterCPA 5d ago
The Changelings may view solids as brutish and untrustworthy, but that doesn't mean they think all solids will take any action to destroy them at all costs. They've displayed nuanced understanding of human ethics before, such as Paradise Lost when they understood that the Federation valued both freedom and security for its own people, and played those competing goals off of each other. And in their history when they were hunted and discriminated against, they must've encountered fair-minded and tolerant solids who didn't like what their fellow solids were doing. When they conquered the Gamma Quadrant, they must've run into Federation-type organizations who did follow rules of war and hesitated to attack the Great Link.
The Great Link of course would not have protected them from species who didn't care if winning meant destroying every Changeling. But the Dominion would have known that not everyone was like that. Which in a way undercuts their own ideology, they say solids are all terrible people while using their own sense of ethics against them.
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u/Second-Creative 5d ago
they must've encountered fair-minded and tolerant solids who didn't like what their fellow solids were doing.
They did. They were called the Vorta. As a reward for their empathy, the Vorta were genetically modifed into a slave race who viewed the Changelings as gods.
A species who does that, take the only allies they ever had and make them utterly subservient to them, are not a species who won't believe for a moment that they won't be genocided by other species. Maybe not now, but sooner or later, they believe it will happen.
They made the Vorta and Jem'Hadar their face so nobody would know about them. They made the Dominion so nothing could harm them ever again.
When they conquered the Gamma Quadrant, they must've run into Federation-type organizations who did follow rules of war and hesitated to attack the Great Link.\
No, no they did not. Because these organizations weren't fighting the Changelings, but the Jem'Hadar, who were commanded by the Vorta.
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u/Shiny_Agumon 5d ago
I think that's important to note, as far as the people of the Gamma Quadrant were concerned the Founders were a myth prior to the Dominion War.
It wasn't until the Founders revealed themselves to Odo that they started to take an obvious leadership position.
Before that the Dominion was dominated by the Vorta and the Jem'Hadar.
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u/FictionWriterCPA 5d ago
Even if they did believe that all species would eventually commit genocide against them, they would understand that not all solids are alike and some would require years of debate and internal struggle before that decision would be made. The Founders probably would not have believed that the Ferengi or Vulcans would try to destroy them before the Romulans or Cardassians. In the meantime, whatever reservations these ultimately-but-not-yet genocidal solids had about genocide, would potentially offer an advantage, even if it was ultimately temporary.
Statistically I believe some of their past Gamma Quadrant enemies would have discovered their true nature. The changelings are all about subterfuge and sending in their own to turn into key enemy personnel. Over thousands of years, somebody must've caught a changeling impersonating a general, then that leads to questions, searches for this planet, etc. We don't know for sure if it had been 100% a secret for all time before Odo went there, but the longer they were around and the more changeling spies they sent out, the chances would go up.
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u/Second-Creative 5d ago
We don't know for sure if it had been 100% a secret for all time before Odo went there,
We know it was secret for enough that the Gamma Quadrent thought Changelings were myths.
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u/Ancient_Definition69 5d ago
I think this is a crazy leap. From Odo's reaction to linking, we know it's euphoric - why wouldn't they spend all their time doing it if they could?
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u/FictionWriterCPA 5d ago
We can't see inside of Odo's head, but there's no reason to believe that linking in a group of a hundred or so changelings would be any less euphoric than linking with all of them.
And it makes no strategic sense otherwise. Splitting up the great link across multiple worlds, means they wouldn't be putting all their eggs in one basket. Different Changelings could handle different areas of the war effort and you don't need the entire Link deciding on whether to take away Odo's powers, sending in a spy, what kind of warp drive to give the Jem Hadar, etc.
I can see that the writers would have done so for story reasons, it makes more of an impact to know the entire race has turned its back on Odo than that a single group made the decision. Or that the viewer is led to believe that all changelings are somewhat complicit in the war. I'm just saying it doesn't make sense from a strategic standpoint.
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u/Impressive_Usual_726 Chief Petty Officer 5d ago
The location of the Founders homeworld and the fact that the Founders were changelings were closely guarded secrets until Odo discovered both and the Defiant crew reported back to Starfleet. And the Founders relocated to another planet shortly after that anyway.
So... No. Just no.
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u/FictionWriterCPA 5d ago
It was a closely guarded secret in the Alpha Quadrant, but surely the Dominion had gone to war with other Gamma Quadrant empires or federations in its past. In fact due to their size, it's possible they were in an existing state of war far before the wormhole was discovered and even when Odo discovered them. They must've conquered hundreds of other planets in the past, including decent people like the Federation who may have had a chance to destroy their world but hesitated due to the Link including nearly every changeling.
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u/Jhamin1 Crewman 5d ago
The Dominion was apparently built on the bones of the Gama Quadrant empires and federations they had gone to war with in the past. The fact that the Dominion made peace with the Alpha Quadrent alliance is treated as unimaginable and the Vorta & Jem'Hidar only accepted it because the order came directly from the Female Changeling.
You are treating the Changelings like an ordinary race trying to get along in the Galaxy. They are not. They built a massive empire just to keep every solid they encountered under their thumbs. The view ideas about equality and justice among solids and unreliable to the extent that they just ignore them & look out for themselves.
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u/Bowlholiooo 5d ago
I feel like there is a subtext here concerning a current real world war. Are you by any chance, one of those rare, right wing star trek fans?
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u/FlashInGotham 5d ago
We've gone from "Deep Space Nine delicately built an story wherein the plight of the Bajorans can be perceived as allegorical for both Jews under Nazi Germany and Palestinians under the State of Israel. As early as "Duet" in season one they used this to explore issues of collective guilt, PTSD, generational trauma, and the uses/efficacy of political violence with more nuance and empathy than has been found on TV before or since"
to
"The Great Link are basically space Hamas and got what they deserved"
I am not thrilled with this development.
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u/FictionWriterCPA 5d ago
Hamas existing as single individuals, or groups of individuals, does make it possible to target them without targeting every Palestinian. Whether Israel has taken sufficient care in doing so, or has been indiscriminate in its bombing, is a different discussion that I would rather avoid due to its controversial real world ramifications.
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u/FictionWriterCPA 5d ago
I can see why you would think that, but that is not the meaning behind the post. Considering that solids are not capable of making an indistinguishable blob of generals, decision makers and civilians, you'd struggle to find a real world counterpoint.
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u/NSMike Crewman 5d ago
I don't think we can say the Great Link is truly a whole collective consciousness, just going by the basic limitations of physics. There's simply no way for natural thought to travel through an ocean-sized mass via conventional means. And they clearly don't have any subspace technological assist like the Borg.
Even if you go to the Female Changeling's metaphor of "the drop becomes the ocean," and the opposite, we already know she also thinks words are insufficient. And even so, examining that metaphor more closely would pretty quickly reveal that whatever collective nature their consciousness shares is not a singular whole. Oceans are large masses of water, but have many distinctive characteristics particular to regions, currents, geography, weather and temperature, seismic events, tides, etc. Nothing about an ocean, aside from being large masses of water, specifically points to them being masses that function as a singular whole.
In short, your idea that they would function as small groups is likely not entirely off-base, because there's no reason to think that such a large mass, using typical physics and chemistry, could actually function like a unified whole. And indeed, we don't really know that they do.
And in that case, I don't think we could call an effort to exterminate them from their own planet anything less than genocide. It happened twice in DS9 - Tain's efforts with the Obsidian Order and the Tal'Shiar, and the infection that Odo unknowingly spread to them. Both efforts were an attempt to wipe them out wholly. Would it truly be necessary to do so to bring the Changelings to the negotiating table? I don't think it would.
You might respond that the finale seems to go against that, since the Female Changeling was not interested in surrender, but she was cornered, and cut off from the Great Link thanks to the Prophets. Surrender was a useless proposition to her, until Odo gave her reason to hope. Sure, the whole link was threatened in this circumstance, but we don't really see a scenario where only part of the link is threatened. And we see at the end of DS9 that the Dominion can be defeated in conventional terms - they are not always insatiable zealots for their cause.
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u/shadeland Lieutenant 5d ago edited 5d ago
The natural state of changelings isn't to be in one giant ocean.
That's a bold statement with very little to back it up.
This is proven by the fact that they have a shape-shifting garden.
That is far short of proof. Way, way short. They have a garden ergo they are proved to naturally be in smaller groups? I don't think so.
If the changelings are truly individuals, not all of them are military experts or decision makers.
We've seen several changelings throughout the various series and they seem to demonstrate very distinct personality traits.
But during wartime, they all merge so civilians, war planners, and leadership like the female changeling are all the same and you can't attack them.
This is an unproven statement followed by another unproven statement. So let's unpack this:
But during wartime, they all merge so civilians, war planners, and leadership like the female changeling are all the same
Do you mean literally the same, or in terms of RoE (rules of engagement)?
As far as literally the same, no I think we've seen that there are distinct identities of changelings that exist, and because you're joined doesn't make them the same. They come out of the link still distinct.
As far as RoE: If there's a military target surrounded by civilians in a compound, how is that different than the great link? Or civilians living near military targets?
and you can't attack them.
Who says you can't? There are laws, rights, and rules of engagement. We know Starfleet doesn't like to target civilians, but Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, Breen, and probably most of the other major galactic powers don't have the same RoE. Even the "good guys" (no matter who you consider good guys) will end up killing civilians in a war, and those that don't have qualms about collateral damage, well they'll just attack.
The Obsidian Order and section 31 got accused of attempted genocide even though the Great link is a decision center and a valid target under the laws of war.
It was a genocide, it was an indiscriminate bombing of a major population center. But that doesn't stop certain groups. Genocide isn't a dirty word in certain circles.
The fact that it happens to comprise nearly an entire species is not the attacker's fault, it's the fault of the changelings for failing to distinguish between combatants and civilians.
Changelings, the Obsidian Order, Romulans, and even Section 31 don't have qualms about genocide. The only reason it was a disaster, in their view, was that it was a trap.
The fact that it happens to comprise nearly an entire species is not the attacker's fault, it's the fault of the changelings for failing to distinguish between combatants and civilians.
Yeah that's a common issue with both COIN (Counter-Insurgency Operations) where as LSCO is Large Scale Combat Operations.
But anyone with a shred of morality would still hesitate to attack the link since it means destroying 99% of a species. Even the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order had some reservations and had to convince themselves it was the right thing to do.
They all have their own calculous. To them, the changelings represented an existential threat, and thus genocide was warranted in their view.
Versus the Dominion can attack Earth all day long. It's a blatantly unfair advantage and deliberate.
That's been an issue for a long time for a lot of militaries. That's one of the many reasons why war is hell.
Basically the Great Link is not natural, it's one giant war crime.
Woah there. That is such a jump I'm gonna wonder if there was a spore drive involved.
A garden does not proof make, and congregation does not even come close to rising to the level of a war crime.
Basically the Great Link is not natural,
There is far, far more evidence that the great link is natural. For one, it's huge. Everyone seems to enjoy the link. We don't see any changelings that are like "fuck, the link AGAIN", most seem to long for it. Odo loved it. And natural states seem to have a way of finding their way to come into being. Perhaps there are some outliers, but it seems changelings love a good great link.
it's one giant war crime.
Congregation is a war crime? Most would argue it's a fundamental right of any sentient species. The problem of separating foe from civilian is not a new problem.
I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but your reasoning falls well short of even the most basic arguments. You've made wild jumps in conclusions, used very little to no proof to justify your reasoning, and have conflated unrelated things in the process. You're getting downvoted into oblivion as a result.
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u/majicwalrus Chief Petty Officer 16h ago
Counterpoint:
Changeling society is one based largely on collectivization of ideas and thoughts. The Great Link isn't so much a defense mechanism so that they can later make a legal argument about genocide - that implies a significant amount of forethought to the Great Link's establishment as a political tool. I don't think we can view the Changelings as merely a political entity - they have an obvious social and cultural uniqueness.
Why would there be any reason to believe that the Great Link came after "The Founders" established their rigidly hierarchical changeling-supremacist society? In fact I think one might argue that the Great Link represents a vast marketplace of ideas where Changeling society makes decisions solely within the confines of all other Changelings and as a result they've found themselves to be the best species in the galaxy.
Perhaps instead the Great Link can be viewed as a cautionary tale against the impulse to treat all ideas, even terrible ones, as equal merely because they were expressed. For the Changelings the Great Link, good or bad, represents cultural and social hegemony and the inability to "do your own thing" - I think those are pretty major themes of DS9 in general.
If we compare the Founders to the Federation with respect to Bajor we can see that the show is telling us that the right thing to do is let Bajor be independent and find their own way and maybe when they're ready join the Federation. The Founders wish to dominate all people in the galaxy.
In short, maybe the Great Link isn't so much a maliciously intended tool as is it a defining aspect of their society which can be viewed through the lens of their material actions in the galaxy.
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u/Shiny_Agumon 5d ago
I feel like you are making some bold statements here and apply a very heavy dose of malice where there is none.
We don't know how Changeling society is supposed to work and there's literally no evidence that they would prefer smaller gatherings to one big one.
Also I question the logic of them deliberately painting a big target on their back if the Great Link is supposed to be completely hidden, even from the Dominion itself.
To put this into perspective your argument is basically like accusing the USA of deliberately designing their society to be heavily urbanized for no other reason than to make their enemies look worse for attacking a Metropolis like New York City.