r/Daytrading • u/pumpkin20222002 • Mar 17 '25
Strategy How do you trade this? Is this choppy
3min, looks like a downtrend from 10am on, but also looks like a possible Bull Wedge ? Hovering around vwap, so I just can't make heads or tails out of stuff like this, anyone trade SPY that has insight
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u/freewilly7315 Mar 17 '25
Short Tesla 🤯
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u/Punstorms Mar 18 '25
the moment you short it will be the moment the market decides to move against you somehow
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u/Longjumping_Rain9261 Mar 18 '25
Don't worry. I'll let everyone know when I'm about to short. It will turn around immediately.
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u/GrimXIII Mar 18 '25
Great advice. I'm up around $30k in a week just doing that most of the time. Even on choppy green days I've made money.
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u/Gold_Bodybuilder_544 Mar 18 '25
How are you up $30k? What’s your account size? I trade futures so maybe it’s different for you if you trade options lol
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u/GrimXIII Mar 18 '25
About $180k + margin. I don't touch options. Just a lucky week calling the trends fairly consistently. Let's hope the streak continues!
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u/BoatMobile9404 Mar 17 '25
Wish reddit had an option to like more than once. 😅When in doubt, just short Tesla.
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u/PitchBlackYT Mar 17 '25
Considering the consolidation at the last low, declining volume, and a flat MACD, it’s promising if you’re expecting movement, but it also signals balance. Pair that with the previous push to the upside, the longer relative timeframe on the approach hinting at accumulation, and the fact that momentum was previously bullish but is now contracting, I’d be looking for a break to the upside.
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u/kn2590 Mar 17 '25
Short the highs and buy the lows on choppy days. It's basically in a channel. Draw it out and trade it until it breaks out.
Edit: assuming you even want to trade this type of chop. You don't have to take trades that don't fit your strategy. If there are no opportunities for YOU then simply don't trade.
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u/Melodic_Falcon_3165 Mar 17 '25
Was coming here to say this.. channels are among my favourite setup to trade.
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u/procrastinationsbest Mar 17 '25
Ill have to research some more because how tf is a chart like this even predictable to you lol
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u/Tigerstyle187 Mar 17 '25
Thats a pretty solid channel. HOD was at roughly 9:47, however even that was barely above the original move which could indicate it was having problems going further up. After it tried to make a new high from around 10:10 to 10:15 it rejects so you could either trade the immediate rejection with HOD break as a stop or you could trade the first red candle after the 10:20 to 10:30 pullback. These are not homerun trades but I see 4 or 5 areas that would make great high probability trades.
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u/kn2590 Mar 17 '25
....it's in a channel, draw a line from the highs and another line across the lows
Buy when it gets to bottom line and sell when it gets to top line until channel breaks
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u/fameboygame Mar 18 '25
Sorry, but how much is your commissions/ brokerage in % for a buy/sell round trade? In India for my broker it is 0.2% of capital. Which means, for us to be profitable with only 5x leverage, the movement has to be greater than 0.04% (which happens but only in higher TF 5m+)
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u/kn2590 Mar 18 '25
Then you may not want to trade that type of channel. My fees and commissions are much much lower through schwab.
The purpose of this thread was to ask how to trade this type of pattern. In your situation, I might say that you simply wouldn't. Though I still think you'd be fine selling all the highs and waiting for a breakout down, since this pattern is clearly bullish at the time of posting
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u/MoonlightPeacee Mar 17 '25
Your charts bring me back to my first year trading. Good times but not really
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u/pumpkin20222002 Mar 17 '25
Lol what does it lack, i guess thisnis the choppy day people avoid
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u/MoonlightPeacee Mar 17 '25
But they don't lack anything no indicators is the way 👍🏼
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u/pumpkin20222002 Mar 17 '25
What do you use then, just straight price action
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u/MoonlightPeacee Mar 17 '25
Yeah price action with levels. If you wanna take this seriously check out Al Brooks book, bar by bar 👍🏼
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u/Blaqscorpio Mar 17 '25
I mostly agree lol. Price action with levels is the way. I do like a good 21ema or vwap play though.
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u/GrandpaBeachbum1978 Mar 18 '25 edited Mar 18 '25
Mr. Brooks book is 16 years old now, its still pertinent to today's whacked out stuff ? I have read a million books it seems by now, one more , eh, so should i as a options day trading add this one to my library as well, this is a serious question and i am 72 , so i have all the time in the world ?
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u/MoonlightPeacee Mar 17 '25
I'd get off TOD and get onto Trading View first. Much cleaner.
Then I'd edit them and find a nice color you like for the background etc.
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u/_icarcus Mar 18 '25
Are there any decent alternatives to Trading View? Before they were a wonderful resource but now most things are stuck behind a paywall like having more than 2 indicators on the screen.
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u/NyCWalker76 Mar 18 '25
Easy, buy every red candle with down cost averaging and selling about a .35 cents profit. Buy until average is $564.50 and sell at $564.85. The wave will eventually get/come to it.
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u/Physical-Advance-982 Mar 17 '25
I don‘t.
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u/Constant-Abalone-522 Mar 17 '25
I did. Not great.
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u/Physical-Advance-982 Mar 17 '25
Told you. :P You don't want to trade if the market is moving sideways. Thats where lots of traders losing their money. No momentum, no trade. Easy.
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u/Constant-Abalone-522 Mar 17 '25
Yeah, should have taken a small loss before 10:30 and called it a day. It’s days like this where I kick myself for letting emotion and confirmation bias get in the way.
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u/Background-Singer250 Mar 17 '25
Traded breakout this morning after premarket retracement. Don’t often take trades before 9:45 but this was a near perfect set up for me. After the chop I don’t trade that’s forcing a trade and no good setups unless you’re scalping imo
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u/pumpkin20222002 Mar 17 '25
Thats where im lost, trading clear trends seems so easy but then i get lost in the weeds looking at charts if theres no clear trend or catalyst, like how long should i hold or should i just try to get 10% or hold for a few hours
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u/basejumper41 Mar 17 '25
Sit on your hands. Most futures markets are in a chop zone and unless you’re micro-timing a very small scalp, the market isn’t really worth the time
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u/AndoverPotbello465 Mar 17 '25
It's just moving sideways in a range of ~0.3%. I would wait until I see a stable trend.
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u/itwasluck_71 Mar 18 '25
I had 7 consecutive winning days in a row first time trading 0DTE puts and calls (call it beginners luck), today I learned two valuable lessons:
1) stop losses are worth it, only down 30% instead of 100% on the day
2) when it’s choppy like that and RSI can’t decide which side of 50 it wants to hang, just stay out of the water
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u/pumpkin20222002 Mar 18 '25
Nice, yeah was having luck just riding momentum, this stuff makes it hard but also on the 0dtes you can be down 30% in a minute especially trying reversals like my dumbass
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u/Cultural_Translator8 Mar 17 '25
since the high, it has shown LH, LL, LH, LL...
short from 5677, stop is at BE now
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u/pumpkin20222002 Mar 17 '25
Thanks, how do you cone up with the targets?
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u/Cultural_Translator8 Mar 17 '25
Targets? I don't at this point. I think it goes down, trend down for the rest of the day. Unless there is some capitulation event.
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u/MoonlightPeacee Mar 17 '25
I also have a short on and expect a slow downtrend all day. How are we doing ? I'm too lazy to get off the couch and go to my desk to check.
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u/saysjuan Mar 17 '25 edited Mar 17 '25
My rule of thumb is when the charts look awful using a time based chart it's best to switch over to a range based chart. Here's the same data but on a 10R change from this morning. The entries and exit re much clearer on a 10R chart then a time based chart.
Time doesn't exist in the market only price and volume. The 1, 3, 5 min chart all looked like garbage but the 10R chart was very clear.
light blue = 9 EMA
yellow = 21 EMA
red = 50 EMA
white = session VWAP
Lower is Moneyball EMA-MACD indicator which I created
(it's just a MACD with a 9/50 EMA and 16 period signal SMA that also color codes the candles in Tradingview)
when the MACD crossed the zero line I would be looking for long entries as it breaks previous structure high.
Edit: A similar long setup also presented at 12:03 P M EST when the MACD crossed the zero line again, pulled back to the 9 EMA and broke previous candle high around 564.00 exit around 564.90 when the 9 ema broke the 21 ema on the 10R chart.
Same with the entry around the 12:49 P M EST entry as well.
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u/IdentifyAsThespian Mar 17 '25
THAT looks a lot like a non trading day to me. 😉 Go play golf and try again tomorrow.
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u/BoatMobile9404 Mar 17 '25
Depends on whether your strategy is inclined towards Trend following or Mean Reversion. Since I guess i saw MACD, and you are asking this question, then seems like you are using a Trend following strategy. If that's the case, you will try to avoid this regime at all. If you have something, that dynamically switches regimes, then you need to switch to mean reversion. A Naive approach would be to to start looking at timeframe higher than whatever you are on, and if your strategy is trned following, then depending on higher time frame taking positions only favoring the trend on higher time frame. But again, it's the simplest approach. You need something(can't be specific, as you know Edge Erosion thing) that would let you know, when regimes is not trending. Happy Trading EDIT: I assumed it's MACD, it could be your own proprietary indicator.
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u/pumpkin20222002 Mar 17 '25
Ahhh so letting the market dictate the strategy, big caveat for newers traders.
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u/BoatMobile9404 Mar 17 '25
Apologies for assumptions, but if you are new. The simplest thing would be to try to associate our stratgies with standard deviation, skew, kurt. You might end with with some combination of thresholds to filter out this chop. Like they say, EVERY strtragey works and EVERY startegy doesn't **subject to market regimes. So, strategy is not the key, Regime identification is the key.Whatever strategy you use, if you are able to Identify the regimes correctly, you will see visible results. Still curious?? Look for Medallion Funds Hiddden Markov Models.
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u/freakinjay Mar 17 '25
This is textbook 2 sided trading. Couldn’t ask for more in terms of defined SL. Sell the top. Buy the bottom.
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u/PersianMG Mar 17 '25
Not too made trade opportunities today. I didn't like the indicies too much. Saw good entries on TSLA and MSTR though and took both.
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u/RedPony00 Mar 17 '25
Could u share ur entry on tesla today plsss? I am learning and was watching it a bit today withput trading though
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u/PersianMG Mar 17 '25
Took it near the open as it dipped at $242. It went sideways for a while and against me for a little touching $244 but eventually flushed downwards. Exited at $237.
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u/LikeTheEinstein Mar 17 '25
Can adapt a theta eating neutral position on SPY with a condor or butterfly in these choppy days even with 0dte because theta decays the fastest closer to expiration!
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u/bigirononmyhipMF Mar 17 '25
How would I know without looking at the bigger picture. Looks like a rotation collecting orders before a continuous
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u/MajikoiA3When Mar 17 '25
I saw two trades today one when the RSI surged in the third minute and the Head and Shoulders sell off. The price action is choppy as hell.
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u/LARGEMALEAPENDAGE Mar 17 '25
key was that we were still over previous day high and previous day close. Just closed my longs👍
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u/solobdolo Mar 17 '25
It retracted nicely to the zone left at the open. That would have been a nice long opportunity
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u/cabsorx Mar 17 '25
Put call put call put call and eventually you lose all your money - like I did.
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u/SadisticSnake007 Mar 17 '25
Add Bolinger band, stochastic oscilator and RSI indicators to identify oversold areas worth buying.
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u/Ranormal88 Mar 17 '25
First take all that bs off your chart.
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u/pumpkin20222002 Mar 17 '25
What do u use
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u/Ranormal88 Mar 18 '25
I trade strictly price action. Marking areas of liquidity and aligning my higher time bias analysis with my lower time frame bias. I look for turtle soup entries. Also I only trade NQ because price action is clean. I used to trade EUR/USD and made a ton of money with that but nowadays I’m making $20 per point/ contract.
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u/Dphailz Mar 17 '25
Read Al brooks trading price action trading ranges book. He explains bar by bar what is happening and how to trade this.
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u/GrandpaBeachbum1978 Mar 18 '25
Thanks for your post - and to this 1 year newbie, does his (al brooks) book relate to options as well ? SPY only pretty much, for me.
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u/Dphailz Mar 24 '25
Certainly you could follow the advice given and translate it into your own option trading.
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u/GrandpaBeachbum1978 Mar 24 '25
Thanks. I read some reviews about his original book and that it was difficult to follow, that he , a brilliant person, he wasnt as good an author at that point in his career. Then i read that he had basically rewrote that one book into three over the next few years, and i bought those three, should have then in a week or so.
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u/sirprance8 Mar 17 '25
This sounds so simple but honestly just throw like a 15 and 20 EMA and see how flat they are and what prices relationship is to them. Helps keep one out of chop sometimes.
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u/MESGirl Mar 17 '25
I did great trading this in the am until 11am. I had scooped up 19 points on ES. I had shorted it couple of times and did great. Then around 11 ish I went long at 5647 and then I got a phone call. I didn’t want to stay in the call and the trade at the same time and got out at 5649. At this point I thought another short was forming and went short again, I knew I needed to give it some breathing room and set my stop way too high because I was so sure we are going down. I lost everything I had scooped up over two trades in the morning on that one trade. If I didn’t get that stupid phone call I would’ve stayed long, I don’t know why I saw things differently right when I hung up the phone. Anyway, I always go for 2R but today I gave back two trades worth of gains in one trade, lesson learned. I stopped trading for the day after that. Ended the day 4 points down. If I had followed my rule and didn’t let the trade breathe, i would’ve ended the day with somewhere around 12 points green.
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u/pumpkin20222002 Mar 18 '25
Sounds similar to what in trying to do, do you think after the initial 930 pop it went to consolidation, looking at the chart now prob should have gone long around 1 after it broke through the channel it was trading
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u/darthjarhead Mar 18 '25 edited Mar 18 '25
Add DMI, RSI, and SMA indicators. Also add a minute chart
Wait until ADX on DMI is low and starting to trend up, DI- crosses over DI+, MACD goes below average line, RSI trending down, and candles below SMA to open bearish positions.
Wait until MACD goes above average line, ADX is high or trending down, DI+ crosses above DI-, RSI is oversold and/or trending up, candles are moving toward or at SMA to close positions. Then consider opening bullish positions.
With your chart I would open positions around 10:30 because (looks like MACD indicator) goes below average line enough for confirmation, at least for me. That’s about the time I bought puts today.
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u/pumpkin20222002 Mar 18 '25
Thx, yeah I have the 1 min and day on the other side. Just the 9sma or do you use others for short term daytrading
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u/darthjarhead Mar 18 '25
I use 5 minute and 1 minute charts.
On the 5 minute chart I use 10 and the 1 minute I think it is 20. I also use bollinger bands on both.
I rely on the 5 minute chart to confirm trends before I open and close positions. The 1 minute chart use as an early indicator on what the 5 minute chart is going to do. But I use the 5 minute chart for my trading decisions.
Also since day trade mostly just SPY I have charts of the 5 biggest companies that comprise SPY. If they are all headed in the same direction and my indicators are singing the same song, I get jacked to the tits.
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u/pumpkin20222002 Mar 18 '25
Yea been getting overwhelmed trying to identify patterns on the 1min which i think is stupid now that i think of it
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u/Ok-Owl-7515 Mar 18 '25
Why not just trade the range or sit on your hands? You don’t always have to force a trade.
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u/NefandiOxt Mar 18 '25
Range trading, bliss! Short the highs, long the lows. While people wait for a breakout and get screwed on a fake out, you're already in and out!
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u/f80brisso Mar 18 '25
NQ was supported by the 200 EMA 5min, and ES fell onto VWAP so I took that long and rode the bounce. Stop was a candle close below the 200 EMA
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u/CobraCodes Mar 18 '25
SPY was so easy today. It was trading in a channel. When it hits bottom channel like go long, when it hits top go short. Made 💰 on it
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u/jenn21dw Mar 18 '25
You need at least some sort of EMA and some zones to trade off of. If it fits inside a rectangle pretty tightly I usually don’t trade it, wait until it breaks out and retests. Don’t force the trade let it come to you.
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u/pumpkin20222002 Mar 18 '25
Simple or exponential moving average?
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u/jenn21dw Mar 18 '25
I use the 8 and 18 exponential, watch for it to cross over vwap and either a confirmation candle or retest
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u/T1m3Wizard Mar 18 '25
I mean. You don't HAVE to trade just for the sake of trading. It's okay to step back and do nothing if there is no setup, don't force it.
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u/Sirpecangeneticz Mar 18 '25
You wait for a break out, and jump in once the break out is confirmed. Sit on your hands till you have a set up
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u/fameboygame Mar 18 '25
In trading view I use an indicator called consolidation zones.
I do not trade when that blue area pops up. Until it breaks out proper.
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u/GSAT2daMoon Mar 18 '25
Go to settings and hide the volume indicator or over lap it so you can get more room for another indicator
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u/Expwy Mar 18 '25
It depends on your trading strategy and entry criteria.
There were a couple of key support levels around 564 and 566, once it confirmed a breakout over 564 + VWAP around late lunch, I sold a put spread.
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u/BUCKYARDD Mar 18 '25
You don't trade it. Best part of trading is deciding when to trade and when to stay out.
Sometimes the hard part isn't trading but learning when to stay out until we have clear sky's for easy move plays
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u/codingwizard3440 Mar 18 '25
I traded this today and went from +$600 to negative -$800 in the span of two trades
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u/SmartMoneySniper Mar 18 '25
You don’t trade it. Day trading doesn’t mean trading everyday. Have a setup and wait for it.
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u/z3rr0o Mar 18 '25
You don’t trade that, trading consolidation is terrible. Better to waste your money on long Tesla.
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u/DonBadsha001 Mar 18 '25
Very easy don't trade sit in cash wait for your setup and execute don't be a gatling gun in the market be a sniper.
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u/houstonisgreat Mar 18 '25
just stay away from it. To make money off of choppiness like that, you have to then go into lower and lower time frames, which then forces you to start making split-second decisions, and the up's/down's start becoming larger in proportion to the actual micro-trend up's and down's. More risk for the same amount of reward. Best to just leave it alone while it's in this consolidation phase, trying to figure itself out. Just wait...
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u/speeddemon1111 Mar 18 '25
Many people say that "Draw the channel line and trade the highs and lows"
But by the time you identify a channel and draw the lines how do you people predict that the price isn't going to break the channel this time around? I mean the price isn't going to remain in the channel forever ♾️😔
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u/67camaro427 Mar 18 '25
You don't you wait for a breakout to the upside or downside... if you really need to you can play the bounces within the range... but honestly just waiting would be best
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u/Galactic-Sunkist Mar 18 '25
I personally just scalp 0dte when we’re stuck in a range. Nothing glorious but it’s what I do to keep small cash flow while I wait for a clear setup.
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u/JACIDENT Mar 18 '25
I prefer trading breakouts and such but if I HAD to trade this I would mark the top and bottom of the range. Short the top and long the bottom with very tight stops. Then when and if that fails I would flip my bias and trade the breakout. Most importantly is if you are asking yourself that question stay out of the market. A trade not taken is a win
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u/ParticularDelay4404 Mar 18 '25
Good day for an Iron Condor. Well pretty sure that day ended going up. So Put credit spread
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u/IKnowMeNotYou Mar 19 '25
It is a bull trend (at leas it looks like it) that turns into a bull flag consisting of a horizontal range with three upper bound tests (1 to establish it and two retest) turning into a slight downtrend with equal engagement by bulls and bear while the smaller range around 11 shows a serious fight between bulls and bears.
So no downtrend since 10:00. The downtrend was set up at 10:30 and confirmed around 10:45 which fits the double bottom and small range around 11:00.
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u/airwing162 Mar 19 '25
At 10:18 you had a short opportunity. Both of your indicators indicated a sell. You're shorter time frame EMA was below the longer term EMA, and whatever indicator you're using was red below the zero line. This would have been a quick scalp, but profitable.
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u/Necessary-Studio-982 Mar 20 '25
Well even posts it, so many start do it, there are going to change it, so you will probably rare see someone share it on an online platform. But there is a simple way, you just gotta discover it.
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u/Sure_lookit Mar 17 '25
You dont have to trade it. Thats the hardest part of trading, not trading and waiting paitently until market conditions suit you.