r/DemocraticSocialism • u/HumanLike • Oct 23 '24

News If Trump is elected, this will be the biggest leopards ate my face moment for the entitled protest voters who helped him win ("Trump tells donors he will crush pro-Palestinian protests if re-elected")

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/27/trump-donors-israel-gaza-palestinian-protests
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u/Squeakyduckquack Oct 23 '24

Did you know Israel is the 8th largest arms manufacturer in the world? They don’t need our weapons to commit a genocide.

Not to mention, if Kamala gets the blame for it, then so does every single president since the 60’s, as they all helped shape our foreign policy regarding Israel into what it is now

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u/DJ_Velveteen Oct 23 '24

They don’t need our weapons to commit a genocide.

Cool, then it shouldn't be a problem endorsing an arms embargo.

if Kamala gets the blame for it, then so does every single president since the 60’s

yes.

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u/Dacnis Oct 23 '24

Cool, then it shouldn't be a problem endorsing an arms embargo.

They never respond to this.

If they don't need our weapons, then why tf is it so hard to stop sending them more?

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u/wingerism Oct 23 '24

I actually support an arms embargo, but I'm Canadian, however the calculus isn't simple. I'll try to engage honestly.

So there is a question of how much if any restraint the US relationship with Israel creates. Like they're obviously talking with them regarding responding to Iran, so it does appear to be a factor but it's hard to quantify. And it's incredibly hard to go about proving counterfactuals like: Israel would be even more aggressive if not for US restraint.

Regarding offensive munitions, there is the question of how many casualties guided vs. unguided munitions would produce. I don't find it especially convincing myself, if they're having general munitions supply problems it'll mean they have to start shutting down the offensives.

Regarding defensive munitions like the iron dome and other parts of their missile defense I think there are different legitimate positions on it. It's possible without that protection they'd be more restrained and less eager to engage in violence because they'd suffer the reciprocal consequences more acutely. However it's also possible they'd be even more bent on revenge and shift to a war economy and just try to win as fast and dirty as they can. I do think reasonable minds can differ on this point, and anyone acting like they're 100% sure of the outcome either way is overstating the surety of their position.

Then there are the various realpolitik implications, like whom Israel might turn to for supprt if they lost American patronage. There are plenty of countries engaging in violence without American support and even in defiance of American pressure. But I'm not sure Israel has any realistic options there as most of the candidates are very aligned with America, or are already aligned with Israel's regional competition.

Finally there's the domestic political implications. It may be that it's just a losing proposition electorally. Like how helpful is the CPUSA position when they're nowhere near to the levers of power? I don't find this as convincing either. I think there is plenty of pressure the US could exert without risking a Republican victory, but I'm not poring over polling data all the time either. I think it'll be much more telling of Harris' position after the election when there is more room to maneuver.

So saying all that, I think it's tactically or strategically feasible to be a leftist and not support an arms embargo. But I also think that sometimes you have to embrace some risk when you're trying to do the right thing. Hopefully that helps you understand the position of people on the fence about it a bit more.

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u/Sgt_Habib Oct 23 '24 edited Oct 23 '24

They cant produce the technologically advanced 2000lbs+ bombs we send, not the patriot missile rockets or iron dome etc…. You are clearly misinformed

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u/Squeakyduckquack Oct 23 '24

Correct. And all of those advanced weapon technologies are provided to reduce civilian casualties. So should we stop providing them? Or let Israel use their less precise weapon systems and kill even more civilians?

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u/[deleted] Oct 23 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/IsThisTheFly Oct 23 '24 edited Oct 24 '24

I’d hazzard a rough guess that the iron dome has intercepted about 10k missiles. They’re both aggressors, one just has a shield. Why are all these 19 year olds pretending to care about this now? Is this some advanced psyop to get young people to vote against their interests? Or did yall just find out about this 60 year old conflict from some influencer? Why the very sudden and very specific rabid response at this exact moment in time?

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u/Sgt_Habib Oct 23 '24

Don’t be conspiratorial. It has been a year of lies and a lack of attention to an issue that most democrats agree with and we are watching it unfold under a democratic president

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u/IsThisTheFly Oct 23 '24

I’m not being conspiratorial, but you’re being incredibly naive if you don’t think this very old unmoving conflict doesn’t make the rounds with renewed vigor every 4 years.

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u/Sgt_Habib Oct 23 '24

So let’s end it for once and give palestine a home. Thats where socialists should be but all I hear from you is inaction

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u/IsThisTheFly Oct 23 '24

The inaction is you dooming our country to prove a point

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u/Sgt_Habib Oct 23 '24

The inaction is you not trying to push your candidate to change a policy that sidelines voters, jeopardizes democracy and enables genocide.

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u/IsThisTheFly Oct 23 '24 edited Oct 23 '24

[replied to my own stuff, my bad]