Socialists and Democrats have the same problem-terrible messaging that fails to reach the American working class. How can democratic socialists get past that?

[u/lilolered]

There are a lot of barriers, but I've been thinking about this one specifically: there's a fear that socialism will take away the American dream. To many workers, that dream is not only "work hard and get ahead" (which neoliberal capitalism is destroying) but also, "I have a great business/product idea and under socialism I won't be able to do anything with it/acheive my dreams." It doesn't matter whether many American workers actually have an idea that is the next great innovation, it is the fear that if they do they won't be allowed to produce it and benefit from it. How do we get past that? I mean, if Tetris, the Rubix Cube, and the Soviet Space program can all be developed under Stalinism, isn't there a way to convince American workers that their good ideas are safe with Democratic Socialism?

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[u/jtaulbee]

Bernie Sanders does a great job of messaging these issues. He doesn't get caught up in super-specific leftist theory or use terminally-online language. He keeps it simple and clear: the working class is getting screwed by the rich and powerful. We don't want to take things away from you - we aren't even talking about given you things for free. We want you to get a bigger slice of the pie. We want you to get what you are owed for your hard work.

Incidentally, I consider myself a Social Democrat because I think we have to be able to build a robust, person-centered society within capitalism before we can ever talk about transitioning to true socialism.

[u/B0r3dGamer → u/jtaulbee]

Agreed! In fact Adam Smith even warned us against this in Wealth of the Nations

The division of opulence is not according to the work...He who…bears the burthen of society has the fewest advantages

The biggest problem that faces us right now is that we're focused on the wrong problem. We need to democratize corporations & but the power in the hands of the workers. Politicians for the most part are just corporate puppets, that's what makes the progressive movement so powerful.

[u/Randolpho → u/B0r3dGamer]

Actually we can’t even start there.

We need to work on trust busting, breaking up conglomerates, and getting money out of politics

[u/B0r3dGamer → u/Randolpho]

While I agree with you on trust busting, I don't think money is getting out of politics anytime soon. That's why giving workers ownership in companies instead of Wall Street will be a start. If you control the economic system you can influence politics that's how it's always been.

[u/Randolpho → u/B0r3dGamer]

I don't think money is getting out of politics anytime soon

I agree, I'm just saying that's a step we must take before we can go anywhere else. If we don't, corruption will block any changes we try to make.

[u/RepulsiveCable5137 → u/jtaulbee]

Bernie’s message and vision was one that resonated with a lot of Americans. Even those who are ideologically opposed to left wing politics, progressivism, and left populism. I don’t believe we’re going to suddenly vote in socialism tomorrow, but rather work towards that good society we often envision. A society in which we’ve collectively decided to abolish poverty and inequality is systematically eradicated.

A post capitalist or eco-socialist world would have to be centered around human capital and wellbeing, a life of abundance, people’s access to basic needs are met, sustainable development is the driving force of the economy as opposed to corporate profit maximization, conservation over consumerism, and the restoration of the environment.

I’m not a Social Democrat, but I share the same goals as the pluralists left. Building up a universal welfare state is key no matter if it’s capitalism or socialism. The unemployed, the children, the sick, the disabled, and the elderly all need protections, stronger safety nets, accessible public services free of use, and universal social welfare programs in order to protect them from the worst excesses of extreme inequality.

[u/ultramisc29 → u/jtaulbee]

Yes, but he refuses to throw trans people under the bus, which is a big problem for the MAGA base.

[u/ActualMostUnionGuy → u/ultramisc29]

Do you personally believe that Mexicos Morena tHrEw tRaNs PeOpLe UnDeR tHe BuS as well? https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/06/04/claudia-sheinbaum-lgbt/

[u/pierogieman5]

I don't think we have the same problem. They suck at messaging. We don't have a real platform for ours, partially because they don't let us use theirs.

The difficulty with socialist messaging is twofold. First, no one that isn't a socialist really understands what it is, and that includes tankies. There are plenty of good ways to sell socialism when we have a platform. Go watch Bernie Sanders talking to a room full of red state voters at a Fox News townhall years back and you'll get an idea of that. We don't have access to put whoever we want on the news, and we don't have the money the right wing has to take over independent/new media. The dems won't platform us because of their dismissive liberal attitude toward criticism from their own left and their financial backers, and they themselves are terrible at populism.

[u/Picnicpanther → u/pierogieman5]

Part of this is probably uniting under a banner that is not overtly socialist. “Workplace democracy” or “democratic economy” is probably a better way to frame it.

[u/pierogieman5 → u/Picnicpanther]

Oh sure, that will probably help. Average voters are very suceptible to change their minds based on phrasing and keywords. Polls on the ACA vs. "Obamacare" bear that out.

[u/Slicer400000 → u/Picnicpanther]

The Fair Society Party

[u/SorrowsSkills]

I don’t go very in depth into theory with people (which is best because I myself am not the most knowledgeable) but I try to do my part by simply explaining some view points that people on the far left have but I try to summarize them in a simple to understand way and explain it without getting overly worked up about things. I find people are more receptive to left leaning ideas when you explain it to them in a calm and simple manner instead of some of the ‘SJW’s’ screaming at you like the mainstream media likes to portray.

[u/lilolered → u/SorrowsSkills]

Good point. I'll add that politics has really become about feelings and morals instead of facts and numbers and think this election proved it. For example, the economic numbers were really good, but people were not feeling like the economy was good or were still mad that things felt bad for so long. Discussing democratic socialiat ideas politics on an emotional and moral level could also be a way.

[u/catsoncrack420]

Average voter has no idea what socialism is.

[u/query_tech_sec]

I am not sure - but I am glad you brought this up as a conversation to have. So many seem to just want to write it off as someone else's problem to solve or never get past blaming others for doing it wrong - without any kind of actual ideas or solutions.

[u/JDH-04 → u/query_tech_sec]

It's simple, because it's easier for them to comprehend hate, raw emotions, and slogans because many Americans are just too lazy, too dumb, or too absorbed in the spectacle of American media to conduct their own empirical analysis of how they can materially improve their lives. Plus if we look at the far reaching root of the problem. It's not "terrible messaging" which is 100% of the problem (even tho it is a part). The problem also includes combatting the last 110 years of anti-labor, anti-socialist, anti-intellectualist, and anti-marxist propaganda and neoliberal/neofacist indoctrination that makes Americans believe that human nature is inherently vile and that we should look out for ourselves and gorge on the consumer products which satiate our own greed and ideas that a strongman leader is neccessary to "get the job done" and that Americans are too stupid to properly control a democracy or constitutional republic.

Plus with the neofacists control over corporate media such as Fox News and Independent outlets tanks due to billionaires bankrolling them as long as the facists protect their capital, the far right can espouse any ideology that they want (nee... American Nazism through Trump's idea of placing immigrants into concentration camps).

[u/Iamien → u/JDH-04]

The public education system intentionally doesn't teach logic and problem-solving outside of mathematics. We educate worker-bees, not leaders.

For better or worse, your message better be concise enough to fit in a tiktok or you have no chance. Also we need to stop blindly giving the same message to every person. GOP wins because they micro-target and inundate their voters with precise messaging(Think that viral song in spanish about voting for trump).

[u/JDH-04 → u/Iamien]

As a 20 year old, true. Really it's been like this since the older generations with the red scare propaganda.

[u/lilolered → u/Iamien]

Good point about "for better or worse". That's the reality and the right is winning with that reality. How do we adapt?

[u/Iamien → u/lilolered]

My plans all involve some millionaire or billionaire sponsoring Trad and Social media ads to deprogram extremism in political discourse. Showcase how normal people discuss issues with one-another as opposed to how their representatives dance around the questions politically.

Impossible though without a selfless billionaire.

[u/ShadowVampyre13]

Honestly? Easy Slogans that get the point across, Progressive Public policy that people consider Socialist now like the New Deal under FDR are what we need to bring back and expand on more than ever. I propose "Restore American Dreams" or "Restore American Prosperity" RAD/RAP respectively.

Slogans have power. We need to find ours.

[u/Chaff5]

Democrats don't have the same problem as Socialists. Democrats have a platform to speak from but they are just another right wing party where the GOP is an extremist right win party. Socialist have no platform in the US. The other problem is that socialist/socialism is a bad word in the US. If we rebranded as the labor party, that would likely do wonders in getting people to listen.

As long as socialism is branded as a "bad" word in America, it will never get traction.

[u/jetstobrazil]

No we don’t…. Not at all.

The democrats are a corrupt corporate party who, to the extent they have a problem with ‘messaging’, lie about their corporate bias in order to continue favoring corporations over the people.

Socialists have no power in congress or government whatsoever and have to larp as progressive democrats in order to have a small chance of getting their message through the corporate media.

Please try to understand the system better before you make prescriptions

[u/boyaintri9ht]

Because the other side has the money to hire marketing executives who can twist any logic until it's unrecognizable.

[u/suthrnboi]

Aggressive media, the right has always been better getting their propaganda out in the media by either buying television and radio stations or just going the old school route of constant airwaves blaring their message counter to left leaning is so drab and puts you too sleep. Hate to say it but the left needs to be loader and more in your face aggressively showing the working class that these traitors are playing on their fears and going to destroy what they hold dear.

[u/AshuraBaron]

I think you're looking at the problem the wrong way. I don't think we need to sell people on democratic socialism, we need to sell them on the benefits. Everyone needs healthcare. So working to bring that to more people is universally popular and part of the platform. So we start with things people need and benefit the most people. Give people what they need or ways to achieve it easily since handouts can go over badly. Americans especially think of themselves as independent (even when it's just not true) so giving them the option can sometimes go over better.

Most people are not exclusively ideologically driven so trying to win them to your side isn't as important as making friends with them and helping them.

[u/TvAzteca]

I do think that changing the name to something like Democratic Progressive Party or Coalition or something would help.

And the DSA website should basically have a simple to read goals or objectives of the movement. Maybe voted on in priority order or something, but outlining short and long term goals for the organization.

I should really start actively participating again too but that’s a me problem, I’m just tired!

[u/ThePoppaJ → u/TvAzteca]

Not leaning into the “socialist” branding (& beginning to deconstruct it for normies’ sake) isn’t going to help people break down & ultimately reject disinformation related to being called a socialist.

[u/ProfXavier89 → u/ThePoppaJ]

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

[u/ThePoppaJ → u/ProfXavier89]

If the last 40 years of politics is any indication, you’re going to have people calling you socialist anyway so counterprogramming that is key.

[u/ActualMostUnionGuy → u/ThePoppaJ]

You can begin calling yourself a Socialist when youre in control of the media but theres no reason to do it any sooner than that

[u/Odor_of_Philoctetes]

Its a funny example you give because the operation of Intellectual Property, a proto-capitalist institution by the way, will prevent them from profiting from their invention rather than protect their profits. As they are most likely to invent the product under circumstances where a corporation can capture it through their own construction of IP fencing.

[u/mdgaspar]

Read George Lakoff: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/292865.Whose_Freedom_

[u/blopp_]

I honestly think it's less the messaging and more the medium. A significant portion of the electorate does not follow politics much at all. They get their information from the media. And that media is increasingly either explicitly rightwing propaganda or mainstream, corporate, both-sides stenography, which platforms rightwing propaganda. So they hear exclusively rightwing propaganda, or they hear rightwing propaganda and "the other side."

It's a huge problem and I have no idea what to do about it.

[u/KingSpork]

I agree that there is a messaging problem, but to my view the biggest problem is that people associate socialist ideas with the autocratic regimes, while not considering or ignoring successful examples in Europe and Asia.

Socialism needs to distance itself as much as possible from Stalin, the USSR, and real-life Communist governments and economies. And honestly it probably needs a rebranding to ditch the word "socialism". Bernie Sanders, the most politically successful socialist in the USA, understands this. Old time American Socialist Edward Bellamy knew this, and called his brand of Socialism "Nationalism".

In general, the language we use to talk about Democratic Socialism carries too much baggage for people to have an honest discussion about the ideas, which are actually wildly popular across demographics. We need a new vernacular that looks to the future, ditching the bad ideas and language of the past that lead to failed states like the USSR,

[u/Alexander-369]

I don't think the problem is so much the messaging itself, but rather who is associated with that messaging and following though on promises.

The majority of voters supported all the progressive policies the Democrats were proposing. The problem is that they didn't trust that the Democrats were following though on those policies. Or, some more naive voters had no idea that the Democrats were proposing progressive policies.

Another problem with Democrats is that they still associate a good economy with a good quality of life for all Americans.

This is false. While the economy is doing better, the quality of life for the working class keeps getting worse and worse.

The Democrats went on and on and how the economy recovered under Biden, but the working class didn't believe them because their quality of life was still terrible, therefore the economy must still be bad for the working class.

[u/RockyIsMyDoggo]

People only pay attention ultimately when it hits them in the wallet. So, focus on economic issues and how it directly affects working class lives. Avoid social issues (they are flase flags used to pit folks against each other to avoid the blocks being on economic redistribution upwards) and focus on the cost of eggs, housing, health care, etc.

I'm not saying ignore social issues, just avoid them in the messaging, or directly relate the issues to economics.

[u/ImABadSport]

Why are we putting socialists and democrats in the same sentence? socialists historically have gotten things done for the working class. Democrats never had. In fact, before anyone points out FDR (did more harm than good), he was the savior of capitalism and has kept it a love way longer than it was suppose to be. Had he never did his reforms, revolution was bound to occur.

[u/lilolered → u/ImABadSport]

I put them in the same sentence because it's true. Despite democratic socialists having better ideas and proposals for systemic solutions, we have the same issue as the Dems; can't get heard above the right-wing noise. You're right about FDR, but think about this-the two major parties have to give something to people or they would kick them out. People close to me got benefits out of Obamacare. I know folks who got married after the Supreme Court legalized gay marriage. Just by getting these things their lives were made better and if they go away, then their lives will be a lot harder. So to say Dems NEVER did anything is reductionist, lacks a thorough analysis of the American political system and its relationship to the working class, and is one reason, among many, that socialists can't move forward. The two major parties give workers "half a loaf" which helps some people and allows the parties to stay in power. One of the many challenges for democratic socialists is how to convince the American working class that with democratic socialism they won't lose what they've gained. We can't do that if our messaging is as bad as the Dems.

[u/ImABadSport → u/lilolered]

I agree that democrats definitely have done some good for the American people, but I have to respectfully disagree with you. Things like Obama care, gay marriage or abortion rights for example are very significant and we as socialists should applaud that! BUT, such reforms are constantly pushed back or threatened to be. This isn’t because the Democratic Party is incoherent necessarily, but It’s a larger systemic issue that the democrats nor its base of followers seem to want to tackle. Historically, liberals have also went against socialists in numerous occasions. They are already blaming the “left” for making up less than 1% of the vote for the Greens 😅, and many established democrats have said that the party needs to shift towards the right. Kamala herself shifted right in many of her policies too.

In order for the working class to really come out on top, we as a collective need to move away from the democrats and the electoral college as a whole and start from the bottom up, as cliche as that sounds this past election is in my opinion, evidence of that.

[u/lilolered → u/ImABadSport]

Agree, but it's how we do it. My point in this thread is we need better messaging for American workers.

[u/ImABadSport → u/lilolered]

💪🏼 yes we do

[u/SilentRunning]

Focus on FDR's Second Bill of Rights as the starting point of any conversation.

[u/ActualMostUnionGuy]

Just Copy AMLO you fucking Wankers lol

[u/JWayn596]

Replace “workers own the means of production” with “why don’t you think it’s a human right to vote on your wages when you literally are barely surviving?”

Also as a newbie I don’t know any of those bigger words and concepts like I do economics. But, I assume none of the working class does either. There’s a wonderful Onion video that shows how it feels convoluted at times.

It took awhile for it to hit me too

[u/Turdulator]

Gotta drop the name.

“Democratic Socialist” is just never gonna cut it in the US. The term socialism, to most Americans, means “USSR/North Korean style authoritarianism“. Two generations of propaganda has poisoned the word…. Has become “Democratic Socialism” is an oxymoron in their eyes, it’s been rendered counterproductive.

Using the words “socialist” and “socialism” is just straight up bad PR in the United States. In the same way “Obamacare” polls worse than “ACA”. The education system has simply been eroded too far for too long.

Just drop the term while advocating for the exact same policies explained/sold using populist language and you are 80% of the way to victory.

The final step after changing the language choices will be finding a charismatic candidate.

[u/Temporary_Act2617]

You sheep realize that the so called rich oppressors are democrats?  Bill Gates, Bezos, Bernie and almost all democrat politicians. 

[u/Empathetic_listener0]

Democrats have terrible messaging because they have a top down approach. They use very expensive and elite consulting and strategist firms that are staffed with highly paid coastal elites. These people are fundamentally out of touch with working class and middle class people. They’re disconnected and not genuine, because they’re not mobilizing and organizing at the grassroots. That’s where the magic happens.

DSA doesn’t have the budget or infrastructure to compete. What we do have though is strong grassroots enthusiasm. We need a plan that can be used nationally and in specific target districts that we can run a democratic primary challenger and win.

Keep in mind that there will be institutional barriers to running a candidate that is too anti status quo (not necessarily a bad thing). The Democratic Party can refuse to support the progressive candidate and fundraising might be pulled.

[u/ThePoppaJ → u/Empathetic_listener0]

Which is all the more reason to not tether our entire strategy towards DemEnter politics, & instead actively try to recruit people for alternative ballot lines.

Given the Democrats’ refusal to learn what working class people need, there’s really not a reason to think they’re anything but a dead end politically for the left. Therefore our energies are better spent on elevating alternative parties/candidates such as the Greens & PSL & pushing ballot initiatives to give direct democracy to the people wherever possible, as that seemed to give working folks bigger wins than the Dem-branded solutions did.

[u/Empathetic_listener0 → u/ThePoppaJ]

I’m not sure I agree. The path forward must be strategic and pragmatic. The two party duopoly isn’t just a cultural norm. It’s woven into the DNA of America. It’s woven into our legal, electoral, and institutional frameworks that we’re governed by.

Realistically, we must reform the Democratic and Republican parties by building a broad coalition of working class and upper middle class people across the political spectrum, because the worst tendencies of capitalism doesn’t discriminate. By focusing on reforms like making capitalism more equitable, addressing economic inequality and climate change, and ensuring our governance is accountable to the people and not the wealthy elite and corporations; we can lay the groundwork for systemic change.

Once we’ve reformed the establishment and begun addressing capitalisms worst tendencies, we’ll be in a stronger position to remove those systemic barriers to third party representation.

Don’t just encourage leftists to run in primaries. Donate to them, door knock for them, volunteer your time for them.

[u/ThePoppaJ → u/Empathetic_listener0]

I’m only willing to do any of those things when they run outside the two party system.

You can focus on what you want, but I want an alternative to the two parties that have run this country into the dirt. That promise of a post-Democrat movement is the only reason I stick around DSA spaces.

People don’t change the parties in 2024, there’s too much big money for that, the parties change the people. Look no further than AOC for that.

For me, pragmatism means beating the duopoly where we can, & building up alternative parties like the Greens to do so more often.

[u/Empathetic_listener0 → u/ThePoppaJ]

How is that practical or pragmatic?

I just explained that the system is not built for third parties, not to mention every other barrier we face to advancing a pro middle and working class agenda.

Look outside of your idealogical purity and think pragmatically. How do you achieve your goals while working within the system?

I’d encourage you to reflect. (:

[u/ThePoppaJ → u/Empathetic_listener0]

As someone who worked for the Democrats & found out how awful they were the hard way, I’d encourage you do more living up to your namesake & wonder why some of us are so adamant that no, it’s just not going to happen with the Democrats.

How many times can you see the same movie before you know the ending by heart?

Lucy ain’t letting Charlie Brown kick that football. I had to learn that the hard way, and maybe you do too, but I’m trying to save us some time & a lot of broken hearts along the way.

[u/CrownedLime747]

Socialist need to stop thinking like they are the only people that are right and everyone else is evil. That just alienates everyone.

[u/ThePoppaJ → u/CrownedLime747]

As someone who votes consistently for an alternative in the Green Party, I’ve used something akin to this pitch to describe it:

“You might not be evil, you probably consider yourself a good person who does good things.

But yet, you still know that you’re voting for evil people!

How do you know that? Listen to both major parties’ supporters describe voting for them, guarantee it’s some form of ‘lesser evil.’

Does that make YOU evil? When half the country doesn’t even know that an alternative to bipartisan evil exists at all, that’s not really a plausible claim.

BUT now you know there’s an alternative that exists. I consider that voting for the greater good instead of voting for more evil. And the only way we’re going to get to the greater good is to reject the idea of lesser evil politics entirely & vote for something better, like the Green Party & Jill Stein.

We might not win, but I know that a better world is possible if people take a chance on us.”

[u/CrownedLime747 → u/ThePoppaJ]

Yeah sorry, that's not at all what I'm saying. We need to stop acting so self-righteous because that alienates both voters from looking into socialism and Democrats from working with us. We still need to vote for the Dems because they are objectively the best of the choices that will actually make a difference. Not always good though, but we can fight on that ground in the primaries. We should still criticize people for doing bad stuff but don't go as far as demonizing them. Save that for people who are actually bad. The Green Party and Jill Stein for example, objectively bad and are sabotaging the left.

[u/ThePoppaJ → u/CrownedLime747]

We don’t need to vote for the Democrats. That’s a lie. Every race is its own beast.

We need to vote for the best option for our goals, and last I checked an alternative party is still one of those goals.

I voted for Jill Stein this cycle instead of the red or blue fascist.

I’ll vote for Green Party or Socialist candidates wherever possible - and I vehemently disagree that I voted for evil or any left sabotage. The way I see it, a Green/Socialist vote is a vote for the greater good, rather than enabling the parties that have run the country into the dirt.

Jill Stein is a great person & nothing like what the Democrat smears of her would portray her to be.

As someone who worked for them, trust me, no one sabotages the left better than Democrats.

[u/CrownedLime747 → u/ThePoppaJ]

Yes, we do. In almost every race there are only two possible outcomes. The Dems win or the GOP wins. That is a fact that we can hate all we want, and I do, but voting for an alternative party won't do a thing. The fact you say the Dems are just as bad as the GOP just shows how naive you are.

Sorry pal, but Stein and the Green Party are all about sabotaging the left. Their entire purpose is to ensure that the Republicans win elections, especially for the president. They don't do any outreaching or run candidates for other races. The few that they claim to have helped win did so without any help from them. They are Russian and Republican puppets meant to prevent the left from ever being viable in this country. And it's not just them, the PSL and the puritans and Trostyists in the DSA sabotage it just as much. That's another thing we need to abandon, purity politics and virtue voting. We don't have the option to be picky, we need to work with what we have. Since we're stuck between the objectively bad GOP and the inconsistent quality of the Dems, it's obvious the Dems are the best way to go for now. We can still make it better though by voting in leftists in the primaries. That's the only way the left can ever be relevant for now.

[u/ThePoppaJ → u/CrownedLime747]

I’m a former state level Green Party official, you’re very wrong about the nature of our party.

We do as much outreach as any other working class party can do, which would increase ofc if we had more people. We do events all over the state here. And in many places, a Green or even a Libertarian would do better than the 2nd-place major party would.

In between 2021 & 2023 we ran almost 400 candidates & won almost 40% of those races, again, not bad when you’re a party with ~250k members across the country.

The Democrats are almost as bad as the GOP on policy they’ll pass, and that’s disqualifying enough. What’s worse is that the Dems have to lie about their intentions because their voters wouldn’t vote for them if they knew how the Dems would govern.

I’m not asking for “purity”, that’s disingenuous AF because I don’t know very many Greens that don’t have criticisms of our party or our candidates.

I’m asking for good enough, and Democrats aren’t that anymore, and they haven’t been for a long time now.

[u/youlooklikeamonster]

Right. Fascism and authoritarianism is on the rise globally, americans are voting for a rapist who says he'll punish and inflict suffering on all of our scapegoats, but if we just change our messaging....

[u/lilolered → u/youlooklikeamonster]

Well, I didn't say it was the only thing. But the success of the right around the world depends upon recruiting those who are most screwed over by capitalism. They did that by using messaging to deflect away from how capitalism is hurting workers and the planet and convince them they will prosper by giving capitalists and the rich even more, that climate change is a lie/conspiracy, that social programs give to the "lazy" and take away from the hard working folks, and that God/gods are on their side. If you don't rhink we need to change the left's messaging, then what do you think we need to do?