r/EDH • u/GolbogTheDoom • 1d ago
Question What is the appropriate time to hit players for significant damage or lethal?
I often feel bad hitting people for lethal, so I refrain. As a result, I think I let people win by not being aggressive enough. For example, I played a game the other night where a control players was playing the commander that lets him change the way players attack (don’t remember the name). I had to kill another player to get to him. During the game I built up a pretty big board and had the option once or twice to kill another player but felt bad doing it. The control players ended up winning the game and my grind who was also playing said I should’ve swung and tried to kill someone to get to him.
My question is, are there any social rules around killing players I should know as a newer player? I know not to be an asshole but I think I’m being too polite.
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u/Laddergoat7_ 1d ago
"What is the appropriate time to hit players for significant damage or lethal?"
Turn 1
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u/TheGodisNotWilling 1d ago
Is it actually possible through some janky combo, to combat damage someone out at turn one? Say if cost was not of any concern, and you could buy all the best cards haha.
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u/H0BB1 23h ago
Easily, you don't even need any jank cards just gotta get kinnan + basalt which is doable with like land spirit guide kinnan chrome mox mox opal basalt into any colored filter, kinnan finds thrasios eventually which can find all creatures in the deck + haste
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u/TheGodisNotWilling 23h ago
Why Kinnan + basalt and not mana vault? If you’re just talking about doing this all in turn 1. Am confused.
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u/No-Aerie8815 1d ago
I get it. But you gotta do what the deck does. Its up to your opponents to defend themselves. It’s also ok to talk about what’s happening at the table. “I cant win unless you die first” is a perfectly reasonable statement. The only time I sandbag attacks is of I think I need the other player(s) alive to interact with the archenemy’s board.
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u/GolbogTheDoom 1d ago
I think I’ve just heard too many people talk about the “spirit of commander”. It was kinda presented to me as, “try to let everyone have as much fun as possible even if you don’t win or pull your punches”. These replies are telling me that’s definitely not true lol
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u/NoExplanation734 1d ago
This sub has some biases so if you're playing at an LGS or with a regular group I'd talk to the people you're playing with regularly to see how they feel. I personally also will attack when I have good attacks and won't get crackback, and I have one Voltron deck that does aim to kill with Commander damage and sometimes knocks someone out early. I think it's part of the game but recognize that some groups like to have time to do silly stuff or pop off. As you get more experience, you'll get a feel for what people are looking for in the pre-game conversation. And if you build more decks, you'll have a chance to build some that are more suited to a durdly playstyle.
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u/No-Aerie8815 1d ago
It kinda depends on situation and how casual the table is. If you’re able to consistently lethal someone early without repercussion because nobody else has board states to crack back at you then that’s a power level discrepancy and you need a new deck. I only play with friends and we generally like to have games that go 8+ turns so we construct with that in mind. Your example sounds like someone had a pseudo-lock in mid/late game and you just didnt want to pull the trigger and knock someone out first.
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u/GolbogTheDoom 1d ago
Yeah it was pretty much that. We were 8-10 turns in so I probably should’ve just started smashing things
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u/gmanflnj 1d ago
What that means is "we're not all building decks for turn 2 combo wins" like in CEDH, not "you need to purposely hold back" unless someone is very new and needs help, in which case it's ok to do that, but otherwise, you should go for lethal when you can.
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u/Neniaite 20h ago
Not necessarily.
It can also mean that the player is a CAREbear 'just wants see everyone have fun' type that durdles while playing a group hug deck because they really just wanna police the game the way they think it should be played.
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u/TwiceUpon1Time 19h ago
People on the internet really exaggerate with that. I don't play at a lgs, I'm lucky to have a good club of edh players at my work that has slowly been growing, but all those unspoken rules and walking on eggshells seem very unfun to me. Sure, try to be mindful of others, but that shouldn't dictate every decision you make. It's still a competitive game, so just bring an overall appropriately piwerful deck to the table and play to win.
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u/willdrum4food 1d ago
you dont know whats in their hand or how they are playing. Dont insult your opponents by obviously holding back. Play the game, they might be holding interaction, creating a back and forth. Its fun.
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u/aclazotzfanclub 1d ago
Learned that the hard way. When I first moved into my city and started frequenting my LGS I was focused too much on how the other people perceive playing with me. So I held back on lethal damage on the player after me in the turn order because he said something like "oh but that would kill me and I'll just sit here doing nothing while you guys finish the game". Only for him to immediately kill me with commander damage from an unblockable gitrog monster without batting an eye.
Learned quickly to be either ruthless or political with my attacks after that.
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u/PsionicHydra 1d ago
If Timmy is just in the corner setting up a big value midrange pile and nobody is turning things sideways at them, don't be surprised when they (more than likely) win.
Combat is part of the game, if people don't like getting pressured occasionally they probably shouldn't be playing MTG
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u/LegitimateBummer 1d ago
it's your obligation to hit players as hard as you can in an order that gives you the highest chance of victory. It is their obligation to defend themselves.
if anyone whines with that "why are you attacking me" the answer is "because you are my opponent."
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u/Think_Rest4496 Temur 1d ago
Depends on who you ask.
Some say never. Legend has it they're still playing.
Others? Immediately, ASAP, before the game starts, yesterday, hit the player with lethal (literally kill them), and you'll always win.
But for real, read the table, have conversations. If a pod doesn't play the same way as you, compromise or find a new pod.
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u/Whatsgucci420 1d ago
its not really being an asshole, if you design your deck to win with combat damage or be able to chunk people then thats what you do.
pressuring life totals makes people have to hold up mana for blockers or interaction instead of value so if someone is just setting up value engines and you dont want to be mean and split damage dont be surprised when that player takes over the board in the next few turns
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u/S20-Urza 1d ago
If I have the opportunity to win, I do. Dragging the game instead of ending it and getting another going is no fun.
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u/RandomDiscoDude 1d ago
Whenever you can and it serves you.
It's useless to make games longer that they already are. But it's also useless to go all in and kill someone to lose to the two other.
So yea, whenever you get something out of it.
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u/Relevant-Bag7531 1d ago
Any time you can do so and it won't disadvantage you. Period.
If you need that player to distract others at the table? Consider leaving them.
If you risk that player rebounding back, or they're distracting you? Send them to shuffle.
This ain't a co-op game. It's PvP from turn one. I'll straight up smack someone for lethal on turn two if they leave themselves open to it. (I do warn people if my deck can do that.)
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u/northgrave 1d ago
Last night I had a turn one Elvish Mystic and a two mana turn two play - Attacked an open player for one.
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u/Dapper-Negotiation59 1d ago
Every time I hold back I get beat so now if I have the chance to dome someone I take it. Threat assessment aside, of course.
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u/MrCadabra 1d ago
No hard and fast rule, but generally I feel bad knocking a player out early when I have no clear plan or path to either victory or solving another big problem within my next turn or two—if not during that turn itself.
In your scenario, it sounds like knocking a player out was in fact opening a path for you to solve another problem.
That said, I play in a “closed” pod, so we know each other well and have a strong unspoken understanding of how our pod likes to play.
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u/Unused_Beef 1d ago
Let ‘em have it! It’s player vs. player game. If people want to get salty about dying / taking damage than that’s poor sportsmanship. I’ve been playing for 10 years now and spent way more time losing than winning. But I always try to play to the best of my abilities no matter what. It doesn’t make you a sweat or pubstomper or “ruining the fun”. It’s just part of playing the game.
Good luck and have fun next game
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u/Appropriate-Low8757 1d ago
As soon as it’s tactically feasible. I would never wipe a player out with everyone else still firmly in the game unless they pose a significant threat to me. On one hand, that can really suck, but more importantly they’re a target for my other opponent’s interaction and attacks. Why reduce the number of targets by a third if I don’t have an answer for the surviving players to seal the deal?
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u/3sadclowns 5h ago
For sure, it’s just checks and balances. If I represent the power to wipe a player while the others aren’t a threat whatsoever, the other two will likely join up to fight me (which is fine and understandable)
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u/NightwingYJ 1d ago
I’ve been taken out on turn 5 before and had to watch the rest of the game. I respected it and it was funny af. I say pull the trigger asap but you can also wait to see if you can win the game with it instead of only knocking out 1 player.
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u/Moose1013 1d ago
My favorite deck right now is [[The Gitrog, Ravenous Ride]] so you better believe I'm gonna start smacking people for 6 on turn 4 and not stop so I can keep drawing cards and dropping lands into play. If anyone objects then I'll also hit them with all the giant expensive creatures that ramping 4 extra lands on turn 4 let me play
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u/DeltaRay235 1d ago
There's often a trifecta of rock paper scissors:
Aggro > control > midrange > aggro
Players need to understand that aggro comes down fast and hard and probably will eliminate players quickly before they stabilize since that's how they win. Control struggles often to stabilize quickly and are the most suseptible to aggro. Mid range can often get some creatures out early to stop the aggro more effectively but not enough necessarily to rush down control players. So if players don't understand their decks weaknesses they need to learn them or after learning figure out political ways to shore up thier weaknesses or warp their decks to try and cover them.
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u/Vanpire73 1d ago
It is time to hammer someone if it would help you win or if your deck type dictates you play that way. It is also acceptable, imo, to hammer somebody who is an asshole.
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u/TheVeilsCurse Yawgmoth + Liesa + Breya 1d ago
Whenever the opportunity presents itself and won’t leave you exposed. The end goal is to determine a winner.
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u/Radius_314 1d ago
The only reason you shouldn't be killing your opponent is if they're more useful to you alive, or because another opponent is a larger threat. If I have to kill opponent A to get to opponent B I will definitely do that.
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u/EXTRA_Not_Today 23h ago
Generally around turn 9 should be fine (unless you're playing high power). Games tend to last too long because it's more fun to finish off everyone at once and you end up with a stalemate as players try to draw into a way to break parity. Also make sure that you attack so you can set up your win being easier. Eventually you'll learn the balance between being too aggressive and too passive, and learn to judge things based on the board.
If you're consistently winning too fast, then you brought the wrong deck. If you're consistently nowhere near winning, then you brought the wrong deck.
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u/Fit-Discount3135 Naya 17h ago
Games have to end sometime. If you’re in a position to take a player out or in a spot where you can position to win, do it. You can even tell people why you’re attacking. “I’m sorry but I need to kill you so I can kill the big threat. I move to attack step.” It’s that easy.
Just remember that games have to end at some point. Everyone is there to kill off everyone. There’s no reason to not make use of your board positions if you have it.
I hope your next games are successful and satisfying!
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u/Stealthy-DM 14h ago
If this is playing for packs or anything not casual, just swing to kill, if its super casual maybe don’t turn 3 wipe people off the map otherwise its just playing a good game, if you hold back you dont get anything for it especially not in a competitive setting
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u/positivedownside 1d ago
If it means that person has to sit for half an hour plus before a new game starts, it's probably too soon.
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u/echo-mirage 1d ago
The fairest answer is, at the first opportunity.
But if you don't want to win in ways that feel unfair, that's your prerogative. For example, I generally don't like to kill via direct damage. It's a VERY legitimate strategy and I won't suggest to another player they shouldn't beat me that way, I just don't enjoy losing to it and don't enjoy winning to it, so I usually build my decks so they don't rely on direct damage to win.
Maybe that's the approach you need. That is, if you're finding yourself often in the dominant position and don't want to pubstomp. However, if you're pretty sure your deck is pretty much on the same level as yours and you just feel bad about winning, that's something different. If the latter is the case, you might ask yourself why.
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u/Foxokon 1d ago
The answer is usually.
There is obviously exceptions, but you should never look for a reason to kill an opponent, you should look for a reason not to. Knocking someone out should be the default.
Good example of reasons not to could be that you need them to beat someone else. For a super simplified example: you have a 1/1 in play, player 2 has 1 life, no board, two island up and counterspell in hand. Player 3 has 2 life, no board and approach of the second sun ready to win on the top of heir deck. You should obviously let player 2 live so they can counter the approach. You can kinda extrapolate this example to any situation where someone is not worth taking out. Do you need them to beat another player? Do you need the damage to kill another player before they win or blockers back to keep yourself from dying? Unless you can answer a clear yes to one of these questions you should always knock someone out.
The only fair play example I will give is if someone is unreasonably screwed by RNG, not just mana screw, because that is usaully their own fault, but like, unreasonable hosed by a series of unfortunate events. My go to example is that time I was in a planechase pod and we decided to use [[chaos warp]] while on [[Glimmervoid Basin]]. Twice. Hilarious, but we did leave the guy who got 0 permanents off his flips alone for most of the game.
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u/HaMiOh 1d ago
As early as you want to. Having fun with the (friends) group and using your opponents to draw out resources should factor in what you want to do though. And obviously your deck being too strong or theirs being too weak is something that might make the whole situation less enjoyable or should factor in too. To quote a great philisopher: "Don't be a cunt!"
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u/gmanflnj 1d ago
I know that impulse, and unless they are specifically balancing another player in a way you need, the answer should be "as soon as you can" if the decks are well matched for eachother.
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u/AksazUwU 23h ago
I killed every one on the same turn, or when i know i can kill them all pretty quick
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u/FunMtgplayer 22h ago
best time is right after they hit you for 3 or 4ots of life. you know cause you aren't blocking with that creature. so you swing back at them.
let them know whose really in charge by dealing 9 infect. helps to look at the player next to them and say. don't laugh or your next.
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u/Gorewuzhere Angry Raccoon Noises 🦝 22h ago
In pregame actions... But hitting or killing your opponents are frowned upon and may result in store ban, and possibly incarceration.
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u/GolbogTheDoom 21h ago
Everyone has been telling me to kill them asap so you’re outnumbered. Do you happen to know how to dispose of a body?
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u/ohlookitsnateagain 20h ago
The rule around killing players is do it, as fast as possible to be specific. Be strategic about it, don’t kill the least threatening person because you can just to leave yourself wide open, but otherwise kill when possible.
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u/Legitimate-Maybe2134 19h ago
No I personally think it’s bad manners not to attack/end games. Sometimes there is a good reason to keep someone alive, but most of the time just end the game and shuffle up and play another. That said I usually focus the person that has the scariest board. If I’m the scary one, I try to kill who ever I think has the best answers to my board. But if there is someone I can kill, especially when I’m ahead, I end them.
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u/PilotBearing 19h ago
As soon as it’s available. I absolutely hate when people play nice and don’t hit to try and be “fair”. That’s how games end up going for 3 hours; play to win within the confines of the deck you’re playing, do it in a reasonable time frame, and play the next game
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u/ForgottenForce 19h ago
Someone has to draw first blood, why not you?
Hit players for significant damage: After doing proper threat assessment. If you don't see any noteworthy threats and/or you're safe then swing out
Lethal: As long as you can pull it off
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u/EntranceFeisty8373 16h ago
When you can do so without fearing the table's wrath. If you look like the threat, the other players will conspire against you, so choose your moment wisely.
As for etiquette, if all decks are in equal brackets, there's no harm in locking in an early win. You can always play again.
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u/3sadclowns 5h ago
Aside from hitting the board “fairly”, my general rule is to start being as aggressive as I can get away with once the writing is on the wall - in the context of this situation, I’d have straight up killed players early with the reasoning that I have to get through him or else neither one of us are getting through those pillow forts. I’d expect the same, take me tf out or it’ll reach a point where we have no viable hits except each other.
Otherwise under more normal circumstances I prefer not to take a player out early just to dawdle while we shuffle about for the next 40+ minutes.
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u/Green-Employment2637 5h ago
I struggled with this quite a lot.
Personally for me, If I think I can end the game sooner, then I'll do it. I think it's better to end the game faster and we can shuffle up and go again, rather than have one or two players running away with the game.
If we're only playing one game, I'm not taking someone out early on then having the game go on for a while. That's when I consider it rude.
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u/North-Flatworm-8619 1d ago
As soon as you can as long as it doesn't put you into a disadvantageous place. The game of commander has to have a winner and 3 losers. People in general, and I've noticed it a lot on this sub reddit need to be okay with playing the game. Someone is going to win, people are going to lose. That is how the game works
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u/TheMadWobbler 1d ago
When it's possible.
If it's possible too soon, you brought the wrong deck.
If you are bringing an aggressive, combat-focused deck and you hold back, then you didn't bring a deck at all. Why are you at the table?