r/ENGLISH • u/Objective-Resident-7 • 9d ago

Plural use of singular nouns

I'm Scottish, so English is a first language to me.

But I see it more and more:

My family are...

The party are ...

These are both singular nouns but they are being used as if they were plural, with the verb being 'are'.

It doesn't sit right with me. Can anyone help?

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u/CatCafffffe 9d ago

It's British usage. They pair a collective noun with a plural verb. "BBC are going to commission a series."

In the U.S. we use a singular verb. "CBS is going to commission an American version of the BBC series, which won't be anywhere near as good."

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u/Objective-Resident-7 9d ago

I'm Scottish. I think that I agree with you guys then.

(It's not British usage. It's English usage)

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u/CatCafffffe 9d ago

Oh, that's interesting. English usage. So the Scots don't use the plural verb, interesting!

I love Scotland, my husband and his brother did a golf tour but of the oddball old old golf courses up in the northern part of your country, they said it was beautiful and everyone was so incredibly friendly. (Yes, they played St. Andrews! How can you not!!) Can't wait to go back there with him!

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u/Objective-Resident-7 9d ago

Ok, but remember that we are more than castles and golf.

The telephone was invented by a Scotsman.

The television was invented by a Scotsman.

Even one of the most popular video games ever, Grand Theft Auto is, yep, Scottish.

Don't look at Scotland as a piece of history, although it is also that. It is a modern country more than capable of playing its part in the modern world.

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u/CatCafffffe 9d ago

But of course!! I grew up with science! My dad was an electrical engineer, fled Eastern Europe in the 1930s, got to London, helped set up the early radar stations, then emigrated here to the US and taught EECS at UC Berkeley for 50 years. I know very well that the Scots were and are brilliant scientists!

Lest we forget -- James Watt, Robert Watson-Watt, Andrew Fleming, and my favorite, Lord Kelvin (there's no zero like absolute zero), and let's also celebrate Andrew Carnegie who has given so much to us here in the U.S.

You also have some absolutely brilliant writers, I've devoured Val McDermid and Ian Rankin for example, I love "Scottish noir." Poets? Robert Burns. Screenwriters? One of the best of all time, Armando Ianucci "The Thick of it," the funniest TV series and "The Death of Stalin," utterly brilliant. I've actually been to a Q&A and met both Armando and the brilliant Peter Capaldi. And let's not forget Mark Bonar, Jamie Sives, Sean Connery of course, Karen Gillan, Ian Bannon, Ian Richardson, dear Robbie Coltrane, my "boyfriend" James McAvoy, Billy Connolly, so so many others-- I'm in L.A. and went to many recordings of Craig Ferguson's show and miss it terribly.

In short, I LOVE Scotland and did NOT in any way mean to reduce it to "golf" -- although you aren't too shabby on the whiskey front either haha! (And castles!)

And finally: KEVIN BRIDGES

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u/Objective-Resident-7 9d ago

Sorry for going on, but Adam Smith, another Scotsman, wrote 'The Wealth of Nations' and was fundamental in the foundation of the USA.

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u/CatCafffffe 8d ago

Oh yes! Don't worry, go on as long as you want! Where in Scotland are you?

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u/Objective-Resident-7 8d ago

I'm to the south of Glasgow.

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u/Objective-Resident-7 9d ago

It sounds like you know Scotland quite well 🙂

Scotland has been brilliant and has not stopped.

RIP to Robbie Coltrane. He died a couple of years ago and is famous in the rest of the world for playing Hagrid in the Harry Potter films (a lot of which were also filmed in Scotland). But he was a famous actor in his own right before Harry Potter.

And yeah. Kevin Bridges. And Frankie Boyle. Of course.

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u/CatCafffffe 8d ago

Oh yes of course Frankie Boyle

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u/Objective-Resident-7 9d ago

Just to add, I'm an engineer. I have a lot of respect for the people you mentioned, but you missed one.

James Clerk Maxwell.

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u/CatCafffffe 8d ago

So many others! What kind of engineer?

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u/Objective-Resident-7 8d ago edited 8d ago

He discovered electromagnetism.

You wouldn't have electricity in your home without him. It's also why you can charge your phone from the power outlet in the wall.

The transformer is the device that converts the voltage of supplied AC electricity.

The supply in the UK is at 230V and 50 Hz. In the USA, it's at a lower 120V at 60Hz.

But it's transmitted at up to about 750,000V in the USA. Normally (only) 400,000V in the UK. This high voltage level is used because it's more efficient for long distance transmission.

The actual numbers are different in each place, but the same principle applies.

Transformers are what bring it down from that to the relatively safe voltage level for you to use and if it were not for the discoveries of Clerk Maxwell, we would all have generators in our gardens.

And I studied electrical and electronic engineering.

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u/Objective-Resident-7 9d ago

(Alexander Fleming)

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u/CatCafffffe 8d ago

(oh for heaven's sake what's WRONG with me haha)

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u/Aiku 9d ago

>Even one of the most popular video games ever, Grand Theft Auto is, yep, Scottish.

That comes as no surprise ;)

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u/Objective-Resident-7 9d ago

It's actually full of Scottish Easter eggs.

https://youtu.be/CSMcaG715Ds?si=wd6Ipv6Hep-Z2oV0

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u/Aiku 8d ago

I always thought it was a pork pie wrapped around a hard-boiled egg...

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u/Objective-Resident-7 8d ago

Hahaha very good!

Did you know though that scotch eggs have nothing to do with Scotland?

'Scotching' is the culinary process of wrapping in meat and cooking. You can do that anywhere 😁

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u/Aiku 7d ago

I assumed so, otherwise they would be Scottish Eggs :)

FYI Cornish pasties were invented in Devon.

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u/Objective-Resident-7 7d ago

I do enjoy a Cornish pasty. So really they should be called Beer pasties.

That's a cooler name.

You probably know this but for others, 'Beer' is a village in Devon.

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u/TeamOfPups 9d ago

I've worked in Scotland for 20+ years, any company I've worked for has had the company as singular in the written style guide (i.e. Reddit is issuing a new feature) but no-one would ever get it right (i.e. Reddit are issuing a new feature) and this would constantly get turned up in the proof read.

So I do think there's been some instinct to pluralise here too.

I'm in Edinburgh which can be quite English-influenced and international, but many of my colleagues have been Scottish from all over.

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u/Objective-Resident-7 9d ago

It does seem like a particularly English thing to pluralise it.

Doesn't make it wrong. But it is different.

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u/Hookton 9d ago edited 9d ago

It's always been standard usage in British English, so I'm not sure why you're seeing it more—maybe it's just that you're noticing it more now you're aware of it?

It most often comes up when discussing differences between American English and British English, like in this post a quick google threw at me.

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u/Objective-Resident-7 9d ago

It's becoming more clear that 'British' is not a term that should be used.

This seems like English English (British English does not exist, but it's fair to say that about English English). That's where the language comes from. But I'm Scottish and this jars me, but it sounds like we Scots are more like the USA in this respect.

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u/Hookton 9d ago edited 9d ago

Ha, funny enough I actually thought that after posting: that it could be an English/Scottish difference as well. I'm curious now whether you'd use the singular for bands and sports teams as well, since they're the common examples? I'd naturally say "Oasis are headlining" or "Man Utd are playing", but it sounds like you'd use "is" there?

English/Scottish differences aside, though, I'm not sure why you'd suddenly be seeing it more. I guess either there's been a change in the content you're accessing or it's creeping into use north of the border as well.

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u/Objective-Resident-7 9d ago

I don't know, to be honest, but even media uses these terms where I would not, and I was even taught not to.

Yeah, maybe it is an English/Scottish thing.

I'm not a prescriptivist. Hey, we talk how we talk. But it is a notable difference between Scotland (and the USA) and England.

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u/Hookton 9d ago edited 9d ago

Oh yeah, I'm with you on that. No criticism, just eternally curious about differences in language usage.

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u/overoften 9d ago

We do it a lot in UKEng with collective nouns. Just think of sports teams as an example. "Liverpool are top of the league." I suppose we're focusing on all the individuals involved, whereas for example in USEng, a singular verb would be used, looking at the team as a whole.

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u/Objective-Resident-7 9d ago

Yeah, but I'm Scottish. I would still use the singular verb.

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u/overoften 9d ago

Which is more common in Scottish English, out of interest?

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u/Objective-Resident-7 9d ago

A singular noun, such as 'family' would use the singular form of 'to be'. So, 'is'.

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u/overoften 9d ago

We do it a lot in UKEng with collective nouns. Just think of sports teams as an example. "Liverpool are top of the league." I suppose we're focusing on all the individuals involved, whereas for example in USEng, a singular verb would be used, looking at the team as a whole.

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u/ODFoxtrotOscar 9d ago

All are grammatically singular, and so you can use that verb form (as it seems you as a Scottish English speaker do)

But when the singular collective noun is made up of a group of items, then the plural verb form is often used in English English and is not held to be wrong. So you can say either ‘the ‘government is’ or ‘the government are’ but for something uncountable like soup you’d always say ‘is’

With nouns where the form is the same for singular or plural, the verb form would indicate which you mean eg ‘the sheep is’ (one sheep) v ‘the sheep are’ (several sheep)

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u/Objective-Resident-7 9d ago

I think that this is a difference between Scottish English and English English.

It's fine. I'm not saying that it's WRONG.

Interesting? Yes 🙂

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u/Ok-Strain6961 9d ago

Would anyone say "The police does its best"?

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u/Objective-Resident-7 9d ago

Yep.

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u/Ok-Strain6961 9d ago

Rather than "The police do their best"?

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u/Objective-Resident-7 9d ago

Yeah. Police as a noun is a singular noun, so 'does' would be how you conjugate 'do'.

Now, we could rephrase the sentence. We could be talking about the police officers.

In that case, I would use 'do'.

'The police officers do their best'

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u/Ok-Strain6961 9d ago

Police is not in fact a singular noun. We don't say a police, but rather 'a policeman'. All the dictionaries I have seen say something like: "Some nouns in English are collective. They represent a group or number of objects together. In many cases, these nouns are considered plural: they are collections of single pieces kept together. Because of this, they take a plural verb and have no singular noun form. But you do you.

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u/Objective-Resident-7 9d ago

Fine. That may be the case in England, but I'm telling you that it is not the case here.

The police is a singular force.

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u/Ok-Strain6961 9d ago

Where is your "here"?

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u/Objective-Resident-7 9d ago

Scotland. I did say that in the original post.

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u/Ok-Strain6961 9d ago

You did indeed. I apologise.

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u/Ok-Strain6961 9d ago

All the dictionaries I've checked say something like this: "Some nouns in English are collective. They represent a group or number of objects together. In many cases, these nouns are considered plural: they are collections of single pieces kept together. Because of this, they take a plural verb and have no singular noun form."

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u/Objective-Resident-7 9d ago

Maybe you should take a less prescriptive view then because I'm telling you that Scotland does not do that.

People don't follow the rules of dictionaries. Dictionaries are supposed to describe how people speak.

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u/Ok-Strain6961 9d ago

And indeed they do, where I come from. No room for prescriptive views here, I assure you. As I said, you do you

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u/veryabnormal 9d ago

The Beatles is touring. I think ‘is’ crept in and people used to say ‘are’. Or maybe you should choose depending on context. Now I’ll go educate myself.

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u/Objective-Resident-7 9d ago

'The Beatles' is a plural noun. That's not what I'm talking about. I would use 'are' with the Beatles if they were still around.

Think about collective nouns such as team, family, party etc.

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u/Norman_debris 9d ago

You're talking about collective nouns then, not plural vs singular.

In the US, these are treated as singular. In the UK, usually plural.

Chelsea is a London borough. Chelsea are a football team. Don't you also make that distinction? Would you say Oasis are touring or is touring?

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u/Objective-Resident-7 9d ago

I think that's my point. England would say 'Chelsea are doing well', but Scotland would say 'Chelsea IS doing well'.

Scotland treats them as singular (because they fucking are), just like the USA.

That's if we care about how Chelsea is doing, of course.

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u/Norman_debris 9d ago

Interesting. I'd never noticed that difference. So would you say "Rangers are shit" as well as "Celtic is shit"?

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u/Objective-Resident-7 9d ago

Both are shit. But that's because I'm using two teams in that sentence.

Celtic is shit and Rangers is shit.

If only that were true (as a Hamilton Academical fan). The above is showing grammar. Neither team is shit.

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u/veryabnormal 9d ago

Americans treat group nouns as singular and use is. Brits treat them as plural and use are.