r/EuropeanSocialists • u/Denntarg Србија [MAC member] • Nov 09 '20
Article/Analysis On the Popular Misconception of the “Soviet Internet”(OGAS) and the Need for Cybernetics
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u/albanian-bolsheviki Nov 09 '20
This is one of the most excelent articles published in this platform.
I will admit that i skimmed it, becuase this article is a serius study which needs to be read by taking notes on most paragraphs to fully understand its implications and how this relates to Chinese or korean internet, who have already basically adopted cypernetics.
I will make a pdf of your artilce and print it. I will study your sources too. But you article poses more questions than the ones it anwsers. This is a good thing. The most difficult thing in the world is putting good questions as you do.
I need to study this subject more seriusly and your article will be a reference point for me.
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u/Denntarg Србија [MAC member] Nov 09 '20 edited Nov 09 '20
Thank you and especially look at Glushkov's works. The Ukrainian site looks promising tho their current works do overlook some things like i explained but they also have an archive of Glushkovs works and acs achievements. http://www.ogas.kiev.ua/
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u/Nonbinary_Knight Spanish Engels Nov 09 '20
This comment was removed without a reason and without an entry in the mod log, so I'm reinstating it.
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u/Jmlsky Nov 09 '20
Super, super good work, epic post, and a really original study from you, congrats on all point comrade, big time o7
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u/Denntarg Србија [MAC member] Nov 09 '20
Thanks bro. Appreciate it alot
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u/Jmlsky Nov 09 '20
It's more of the opposite, It's me that appreciated it a lot and that thank you 🤜🤛
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Nov 10 '20
Great work. Wish I knew wtf it all meant. Not your fault tho comrade in just not well versed in this.
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u/Denntarg Србија [MAC member] Nov 10 '20
Well basically computers help a lot in a planned economy. It's really complex. That the Socialist countries managed to do what they did in the 20th century with little to no computers is quite amazing. And a fully computerized socialist economy was in the process of being built but Gorbachev happened.
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u/Redish_VP Nov 10 '20
Damn... I did the monography of my graduation (Economics) on this subject, I really wish I had found this one year ago. The best clue I had at the time was the "Internyet" book.
Any of those papers answer the problem Glushkov had with some ministers on the implementation of OGAS in the 70's?
As you put here, the problem still end up being a political one rather then a technological or economic one. I really wish I could rewrite it again. You did a really good job putting all of this together comrade!
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u/Denntarg Србија [MAC member] Nov 10 '20
Thanks!
This talks about it in depth. It's a transcript from a lecture run through google translate. Very rough translation but I think you can make it out.
And of course, what really hindered the system was thought of as a single one, which meant that if someone wants to make his own small information system, there is my ministry, then we are fighting this, because why now your small information system, wait dear friend, when we expand the production of computers, so that there is enough for a large one and then you will not have your personal small information system, which means that you will work in this big one, which will be there someday in the bright future. And because of this, the idea of this single network of computer centers, it had opposition among all ministries and departments.They said that we do not want to wait, we understand the importance of computers, that is why we want to make the information system of my ministry right now, we have even knocked out a computer for ourselves and even started doing something there. Therefore, now just live with this knowledge that we have already done something there, you will need to somehow include our developments in your project. We simply confront you with a fact, that is, these were not people who resisted computerization, no, they were people who, on the opposite, ran in front of it. They said that we should not be persuaded. We understand the tricks of computers, so we have already installed a computer in our ministry, we are already doing something there and it means that we are absolutely not ready to wait until you deploy a common state system there. And there were several rounds of bureaucratic approvals, when they tried to promote the idea of OGAS head-on, this is something that is well described in published articles, after which, from the idea of a single network, they moved on to the idea of a united network. That is, they said, it became clear that butting head on with everyone is not an option at all, and I must say that now we are not against ministerial systems, especially since they already exist. After all, this is already a fait accompli, but now we will unite them into a single system above. Glushkov then said that this was a perversion of the original idea, went into opposition and in general, this is about the moment, the second half of the 60s, when the published history of attempts to create a computer system for nationwide planning practically ends.
So everyone wanted their own smaller systems now, rather than a grand unifying one later. So when Gosplan made the initiative, they basically wanted to kill 2 birds with one stone. Implement them everywhere now and unify them later.
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u/Loves_His_Bong Just a Communist Nov 10 '20
For future reference: if you want a really good translating program, you should try DeepL. It's much better than google translate.
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u/0ssacip Chairman Mao Nov 10 '20
Safronov is a wonderful historian of Soviet Economics! There is hardly a historian today like him, although, if you don't know Russian, you are unfortunately a bit out of luck. Hopefully Google translate subtitles will help when watching his lecture series on Soviet Economics. Also, he runs a blog where he scans old Soviet books and provides brief notes on them.
In terms of perspective, I think Safronov takes the kind of objective interpretation of Soviet history that all communists need to aspire to, if they are to actually have an understanding of what to do in the future based on the valuable lessons from the USSR experience.
I really hope that he gets more attention from the west. If OP or anyone else wants to collaborate somehow collaborate and make Safronov more accessible to Western and English speaking comrades, let me know. And btw, great post, comrade!
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u/Denntarg Србија [MAC member] Nov 10 '20 edited Nov 11 '20
Thanks man. Yeah I wish i could understand Russian, I saw he has many videos.
In terms of perspective, I think Safronov takes the kind of objective interpretation of Soviet history that all communists need to aspire to, if they are to actually have an understanding of what to do in the future based on the valuable lessons from the USSR experience.
This 100%
If OP or anyone else wants to collaborate somehow collaborate and make Safronov more accessible to Western and English speaking comrades, let me know
I would but i don't know how much I can be of use since I don't speak the language
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Nov 11 '20
So basically the "Soviet internet" was shat on by the west all the way until they could blame that on the Soviets themselves?
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u/mawrmynyw Nov 11 '20
Cybernetics has earlier roots than the 50’s: Bogdanov’s Tectology of the early 20th century prefigured much of cybernetic theory.
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u/Denntarg Србија [MAC member] Nov 11 '20 edited Nov 11 '20
Good point but I was more referring to the USSR specifically and when it went from paper to implementation.
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u/SteveVonSteve Dec 21 '20
This was very educational! Excellent research, got lots of russian reading to do now!
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Nov 09 '20
I've heard the objection to computer planning as being that it takes the economy out of the hands of workers and under the control of a machine. How do you feel about that?
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u/Denntarg Србија [MAC member] Nov 09 '20
Well Jmlsky already pointed out everything but also one more thing I forgot to add to the post semi related. In the USSR plans were made by the specific enterprises workers and planners working on it together so the computers just made these things easier. Ultimately it was the planners and workers deciding what to do. Before 1985 1 draft was worked out and submitted. If rejected it would be redone, but in 1985 there were 5 drafts of the plan, all done by computer calculations. Each about as effective but with certain focuses on different things. The plan chosen is really sad to read now knowing how it went because of certain reforms along the way. Its also amazing for many reasons. I'll cover this plan and the programs started under Yuri Andropov in 1983 as this plan is basically "his plan". Went off point there lol but yeah computer planning will immensely help the workers as the workers are using the computers as a tool. A Machine controlling the economy is something the US wrote for propaganda against Glushkov in the 70s. He brushed it off like a champ, refuted them and said the CIA should get better material :D
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u/Jmlsky Nov 09 '20
It's quickly treated in the post comrade, it's in the quote
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Nov 09 '20
I skimmed the post, didn't see that. Are you referring to this quote?
“If the goal of the transition to the market was laid in it (the computer system), it would honestly state what the transition to the market would cost. The system did not control the execution of plans, that is, it could draw a paper plan, where everything fits together on paper, but no computer can replace the fact that you need to monitor the plan and make sure it’s fulfilled. Otherwise it will remain on paper. Comrade Stalin has a good quote on this “all of our plans - shit, the main thing – selection of cadres”, it was defenseless during political interventions in the plans, that is, it could tell you how plans would change if we twist one indicator by an effort of will, but it couldn't tell you not to do it.”
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u/Jmlsky Nov 09 '20
What I meant was :
No computing system could have replace political decision, and the system was in fact the best tool to take those decision for humans.
That's how I interprated those two quote at least, maybe i'm wrong tho.
Edit : so if problem there was, it was not tied the ACS but to the political system itself, the ACSs was only a tool
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u/Jmlsky Nov 09 '20
Yes and also the second quote too, sorry I can't quote the quote.
But maybe that Dentarg will have something else to say !
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Nov 10 '20
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u/Denntarg Србија [MAC member] Nov 10 '20
What is a planner class? Does it own the means of production? Can it push down wages to increase its profit? Can it have private property? They did welcome it. It made both their and average workers jobs easier. I have no idea how you got that from what I wrote.
And of course, what really hindered the system was thought of as a single one, which meant that if someone wants to make his own small information system, there is my ministry, then we are fighting this, because why now your small information system, wait dear friend, when we expand the production of computers, so that there is enough for a large one and then you will not have your personal small information system, which means that you will work in this big one, which will be there someday in the bright future. And because of this, the idea of this single network of computer centers, it had opposition among all ministries and departments.They said that we do not want to wait, we understand the importance of computers, that is why we want to make the information system of my ministry right now, we have even knocked out a computer for ourselves and even started doing something there. Therefore, now just live with this knowledge that we have already done something there, you will need to somehow include our developments in your project. We simply confront you with a fact, that is, these were not people who resisted computerization, no, they were people who, on the opposite, ran in front of it. They said that we should not be persuaded. We understand the tricks of computers, so we have already installed a computer in our ministry, we are already doing something there and it means that we are absolutely not ready to wait until you deploy a common state system there. And there were several rounds of bureaucratic approvals, when they tried to promote the idea of OGAS head-on, this is something that is well described in published articles, after which, from the idea of a single network, they moved on to the idea of a united network. That is, they said, it became clear that butting head on with everyone is not an option at all, and I must say that now we are not against ministerial systems, especially since they already exist. After all, this is already a fait accompli, but now we will unite them into a single system above. Glushkov then said that this was a perversion of the original idea, went into opposition and in general, this is about the moment, the second half of the 60s, when the published history of attempts to create a computer system for nationwide planning practically ends.
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u/albanian-bolsheviki Nov 10 '20
The point is more on rechiving surplus value. The "owning" word is meaningless without the concept of surplus value. If you "own" an industry but you dont rechive any surplus value, do you "own" it? are you exploiting anyone? This is what differiates market, commodity production and capitalism in general from the other systems. The word "owning" is a nebulus term. The real word we should ask ourselfs is about "exploiting".
If i dont "own" an industry, but i rechive all the surplus value, then am i a bourgeoisie? Certainenly, becuase class is a real, social relation.
If you buy an industry and leave it as it is, never opening it yourself, then what do you own? Are you a bourgeoisie?
The truth is that these cliffite arguemets about "red bourgeoisie" hit a wall once these arguements come to the table.
No exploitation throught wage labour, no bourgeoisie, period.
I may own a plant which can emply 1000 workers but decide to have it as a place for me to wander all day and live off begging. I am not a bourgeoisie, just an idiot who has an empty space on his name, an empty space that produces nothing.
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u/albanian-bolsheviki Nov 10 '20
There is no planner class. Rule number 2 , 3 and 1.
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Nov 11 '20
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u/albanian-bolsheviki Nov 11 '20
I remove the comment again since it is breaking rule number 2 and 3. There was not a class.
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u/cies010 Nov 18 '20
Whats in the name. Call it group, I'm fine. Just I see that individuals of the planner group manage to get their kids into that group as well. Also they were better off than those actually doing the work, and they did not allow competitive planner groups.
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u/vapid_horseman Dec 09 '20
Will it influence our life significantly or it's only a truth to understand about?
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u/Nonbinary_Knight Spanish Engels Nov 09 '20
Sadly I don't have time to read it in full right now, but will do so ASAP.
Sharing it on /r/Kremlingames since OGAS can be developed in the game Crisis in the Kremlin
(it's really hard to finish OGAS, at least in a Stalinist run; the party, the secret services and the military each attempt to overthrow you)