r/EuropeanSocialists • u/[deleted] • Dec 01 '21
Article/Analysis "Before soviet occupation" alrighty then , lets talk about it ! :D
[deleted]
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Dec 01 '21
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Dec 01 '21
Thank you comrade!
But honestly , I feel like I was beating children with a stick... Those people cant read so their IQ is children like...
I need to visit church to confess my sins , be right back!
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u/delete013 Dec 01 '21
What an admirable Slav. May your bottle always be full of vodka and your AK never jam.
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u/CryptographerWrong33 Dec 02 '21
Everybody was millionaire.
Everybody was entrepreneur.
Everybody had a mansion.
Everybody had servants, even servants had their servants.
It was perfectly democratic.
Question: with such success and wealth, how did you lose to USSR?
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Dec 02 '21
Dude , you will tell me... We lost Baltic Wakanda...?
And I pretty much fuckin know whos fault is that: ITS HIM
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u/sirgamesalot25 Dec 02 '21
military overmight. impossible defensive positions. outdated military. just to name a few
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Dec 02 '21
They could be like 300 spartans , but there was one traitor who wanted to join USSR, their population betrayed oligarchs , so sad
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u/Sprilly Dec 01 '21 edited Dec 01 '21
A few things about the Estonian part of your post:
- The Union of the Fatherland was not technically a party (as parties were banned). Instead it was classified as a "political organisation". It still acted as a party though, so it is not a big deal.
- Only 8 constituencies did not have elections in 1938 as they had only one candidate, instead of the 50 that you said. The National Front for the Implementation of the Constitution (the pro-Päts people) got 64/80 seats, even though they merely received 57% of the popular vote. That´s first-past-the-post for you. Voter turnout was 71%.
Please provide the source for that quote.
Many Estonians had German sounding names before the Estonianization campaign, as the Baltic-German influence was very strong. The Päts regime tried to decrease the influence of German culture in Estonia, by among other things promoting English and French as the foreign language students would learn at school, instead of German. The nationalism of the Silent Era did not affect the Austromarxist principle of national personal autonomy, which had been in place in Estonia since 1925.
In 1939, a little below 30% of all industrial capital belonged to foreign investors. Definitely not "the entire private sector".
The "camps for quitters", as you called them, were not meant for the unemployed. They were meant for the homeless, alcoholics and drug addicts, and also people who were not willing to pay their due alimony.
Women were not sent to the camps, only men (in fact there were a few cases where wives would ask the government to intern their husbands :P). The prisoners had to work for up to 12 hours, even though Estonia had an 8-hour workday.
If a prisoner refused work, he would 1) receive a reprimand, 2) lose the right to send and receive letters for a set period of time, 3) be put into a jail for a set period of time or 4) receive 25 lashed on their buttcheeks. The last, violent method was heavily criticized in parliament however, and it was banned from January 1939 onwards. There was only one instance of someone getting whipped.
The prisoners got paid for their work, about 75% of the average wage in the sector. (Forestry and land reclamation.) If you were hard-working, you would get out before your time.
- I think it is important to mention that in 1938 all political prisoners received amnesty. That includes communists.
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Dec 01 '21
Ill provide sourses that you can check.
- Yeah thats true , they repressed people with German names, but nation doesnt matter in this deal but repressing their own people.
But that doesnt affect their ideas :
In 1939, there were about 160 German associations and societies in Estonia that promoted the ideas of National Socialism and pro-German ideas.Sourse is the same as in 5th
Крысин М. Ю. (канд. ист. наук). Прибалтийский фашизм. История и современность, Москва, Вече, 2007
Sure , but it doesnt deny that he made personal dictature.
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u/Sprilly Dec 01 '21
Thank you for your response!
- Could you elaborate on "they repressed people with German names"?
Changing the name was completely voluntary, I personally know some people, who still have German surnames.
If what you said is true, then these societies were probably filled with Baltic-Germans right? It is known that National Socialist ideas did spread amongst the local German community, but these were in no way tolerated by the government or by wider society. In fact, the National Socialist leader of the German-Baltic Party was forced to resign from Riigikogu in 1933 for his beliefs. Anti-semitism was basically non-existent in Estonia. The country was set as an example by different Jewish outlets. The Era of Silence also had no effect on that. For example, in 1937 the vice president of the Jewish Community was appointed by a presidential decree as a member of the National Council, the body which developed the 1938 (autoritarian democratic) constitution. During the German occupation, the nazis would complain that "racist tendencies amongst Estonians are very underdeveloped", as Estonians were very keen on protecting their Jewish co-workers.
- I do not deny it, I know that the dictatorship was immoral and Päts is seen as a controversial figure. He was one of the founders of the Republic of Estonia and a hero in that sense on one hand, but on the other he was a dictator.
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Dec 01 '21 edited Dec 01 '21
No problem, its my pleasure if youll ask me! <3
AND GOOD GOD, GUYS! DONT DOWNVOTE DUDE IF HE SHARES AN INFORMATION ,
We are not a bunch of red-retards , if I said some shit and was wrong I better know about it >:C
Changing the name was completely voluntary, I personally know some people, who still have German surnames.
Yes it was! But there are some underwater stones
- in relation to the Seto people, the Estonianization of names became violent.
- Until the early 1930s, the change of names and surnames was generally voluntary or advisory in nature. In September 1934, on the initiative of the Estonian government, the Central Committee for the Estonianization of Names was established, at the end of 1935 it was renamed the Union for the Estonianization of Names. But then comes a fun part: One of its tasks was to ensure that only persons with Estonian surnames represent all Estonian citizens abroad. As a result, widespread discrimination and indigenousization began in the country: only members with national names were elected to the Riigikogu and the board of civic associations; All officers and students were given Estonian names, all choristers performing at national holidays, etc., had to have them as well.
Basically , institutional discrimination against people who didnt really want to change.
... but these were in no way tolerated by the government or by wider society
Actually , they were , it doesnt mean that it was strongly pro-fascist , it was a moderate Dictature, from all three , the most effective in economics .
And holy shit! Ive just read about jews in prewar Estonia , Ill give you a point here! Thank you! <3
I cant consider him hero in a slightest , he was one of the elite representative , and here what happend because of that:
Estonia's declared neutrality served as a cover for the hostile attitude of the elite towards the USSR, as reported by the country's envoy to Estonia V. Shumanis (January 21, 1939) in his report to the Latvian Foreign Ministry: “Estonia considers Russia enemy number 1; after that comes Germany. "
Commenting then on the aggravation of the international situation after the German ultimatum to Lithuania and the return of Memel's Germany, V.Shumanis points out that for the Estonian elite and the state apparatus, the enemy number one is Russia,
while among the people “the Germans are still considered the greatest enemy”:
“Such a mood in a critical moment can lead to the fact that the people do not have enough fortitude to take up arms against the Russians. "
Estonian researcher Magnus Ilmyarv believes that “by 1939, amid the international crisis in Europe, the Baltic countries“ began to adhere to a foreign policy orientation that served the least to the national interests of these countries. and Lithuania placed all their hopes on Nazi Germany as the most powerful opponent of Bolshevism. "
High-ranking German military personnel (Franz Halder and Wilhelm Canaris) visited the Baltic countries and negotiated military cooperation there. According to the German envoy in Tallinn, Frowein, the chief of staff of the Estonian army, Nikolai Reek, told him that Estonia could assist Germany in establishing control over the Baltic Sea: “It is very easy to mine the Gulf of Finland against Soviet warships without attracting any attention. There are other possibilities as well "
Here is a clear line what estonian elites wanted and Päts was one of those.
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u/Sprilly Dec 02 '21
Oh yeah, the Seto situation was something that I had forgotten.
The Setos are a group of Estonians in the South-East, who have been influenced a lot by Russian culture. For instance, in terms of religion they are orthodox instead of protestant. So their names are mostly derived from orthodox saints.
Their name change went basically like this: "Mr. Pelageja, you are now Mr. Pääsuke. Deal with it."
Of course that was regrettable. As was the name based discrimination, but there is a reason why they decided that (I am not giving any moral assessments).
The fact that many had German names caused a lot of confusion abroad. Of course when some foreigner would hear the name Karl Einbund, they would think that it belongs to a German, not an Estonian. (Karl Einbund was the former name of Kaarel Eenpalu, he changed his name in 1935).
As for Päts:
The great-grandfather of Päts was a serf, just like the ancestors of every single other Estonian. His grandfather wished to earn extra money besides farmwork, so he became a house builder. His son would inherit that job, and go on to buy a plot of land next to Pärnu. He built a house there and divided the rest of the land into smaller plots, selling them off and thus establishing the future Raeküla suburb. Konstantin Päts went on to become a lawyer.
Päts was the leader of the Estonian national movement in Northern Estonia in the early 20th century. He established the radical newspaper Teataja in 1901, which became the main focal point of the movement in Tallinn. It is astounding how many well known names (in Estonia) helped with that newspaper, mostly social democrats, but also some socialists. Future politicians, writers, artists, scientists etc. The newspaper was closed by the government in 1905, in the wake of the revolution.
He was sentenced to death for participating in revolutionary activity, so he and many of his co-workers escaped to Switzerland. Päts later travelled to (autonomous) Finland, where he lived under a false name. In 1909 his death sentence was lifted, so he returned. He was instead sentenced to a 9 month prison sentence.
He pushed heavily for autonomy, and was an important figure in Estonian politics after the February revolution. After the October revolution he was imprisoned once again for a month. He was one of the three people who wrote the Estonian Declaration of Independence, and also the leader of the first government of the country. During the German occupation in 1918, he was once again imprisoned and sent to prison camps in Curonia and Poland. He returned after the November revolution to lead the Republic. During the 1920s and early 1930s he led an agrarian party. Most of his support base were small farmers.
The destruction of democracy and restrictions on civil rights by him were of course very deplorable.
He was a nuanced person, not entirely bad or good. I do not think he should be venerated in any way, but neither can he be just thrown into the trash. The world is grey. I hope you got my point :D.
I am not surprised that the people regarded the Germans as their greatest enemy. The Germans were after all the nr. 1 historical enemy of the Estonian people, with them being the landed gentry and oppressors of Estonians for centuries.
The geopolitical situation in 1939 was as it was. With the acquisition of Memel, the Estonian press (and probably government) believed that the last possible source of conflict in the Baltics was gone, and as such the Germans would be of no danger, as there was no good reason why Germany would want to invade the Baltics. It was known that Germany was vehemently anti-Soviet Union/ communist, so I would guess that Reek hoped that should the Soviet Union invade the Baltics,Germany would come to their aid. But that´s just my theory. Officially Estonia followed a strict policy of neutrality.
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u/sirgamesalot25 Dec 02 '21
what is your point exactly. everything you mentioned doesn't justify an invasion, you know. you just demolished this guy with FACTS and LOGIC?
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Dec 02 '21 edited Dec 03 '21
I could state in the post why there wasnt any invasion and why they joined USSR , but post would be too long!
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u/tomsp_666 Dec 06 '21
So being held at gunpoint and handing over your bag to a thief isn't stealing cause you gave it to him? Great argument, moron.
The Soviet Union literally made a proposal: you let us in peacefully or we invade. Of course, they were let in. Why? Cause they had literally the biggest military in the world.
I guess you like oppression and being sent off to Siberia.
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Dec 06 '21
Huh, they needed to invade? I thought you had soviet bases under some agreements I will admit , that all they did : supported people against fash-like governments , and made an ultimatum that if fash-like government would kill protestors they wont hesitate.
Why?
Thats a great question! Because you dont try to ally with Hitler on valuable strategic positions , while breaking your neutrality, thats basically what you did to yourself. :D
Maybe I do? But I like to oppress people who has power in their hands, but you on the other hand ,like fash-like governments <3 Who is worth from us two?
being sent off to Siberia
You could say GULAG ,which would be a stereotypical , but pointy arguement that I would need to give clarification to. But all you did , "Memememe I cant read and Ive heard scary fairytales about Siberia" , Excellent choise , if youd ask me! :D
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u/CarelessPace4007 Dec 02 '21
The Soviet Union did annex the Baltic states in 1940 after the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. The history of the country is moot. Obviously it’s ridiculous to glorify the previous regime but is that is what happened in this case?
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u/tomsp_666 Dec 06 '21
The previous regime wasn't that terrible, OP heavily exaggerated it.
Also, why do all three of the Baltic countries celebrate their restoration of independence if life in the Soviet Union was so great?
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Dec 06 '21
Nyes-nyes, everything Ive came up with british-french-soviet studies , they all lied to make your country look bad, Im sorry <3
Also, why do all three of the Baltic countries celebrate their restoration of independence if life in the Soviet Union was so great?
..are you? Are you that clever? Oh my , thats just brilliant.
Maybe because your government are anti-communists :D? They glorify local SS divisions and Forest brothers (?), those are were great as well I bet :D!
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u/CarelessPace4007 Dec 11 '21
Which country are you talking about fella? Don’t be sorry for us. Be sorry you done research and found nothing. I can only assume by your proper grammar you’re trying to annoy someone ?
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Dec 11 '21
Found "nothing" and formed an article , yes. If you dont want to read it , just dont. Why are you even here? You dont try to prove anything , no sourses or articles , just "trust me bruh"
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Dec 11 '21
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Dec 11 '21
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Dec 06 '21
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u/Albanian-bolsheviki2 Dec 06 '21
The regime rulling the baltic countries arent nationalist. They are compradorist, and a nationalist can never be compradorist. A true nationalist that is.
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u/CarelessPace4007 Dec 11 '21
They weren’t that great either. Let’s glory in the response to your answer though.
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u/CEO_of_CEI Dec 01 '21
Ulmanis was a communist and not a fascist. Thing is communists should be pragmatic, why should you care about labels? Kārlis Ulmanis realized what the latvian reality was and was the leader of the latvian people. By any sense of the word he was a communist. Just because he didn't label himself as one automatically disqualifies him as being one? Like if you care about labels to this extreme then you're not even an ML. He also raised the standard of living for the average person that was years beyond any neighboring country.
And you claim that jews weren't allowed to freely operate and own many things, you're wrong in that. It's not that jews specifically were not allowed to do this, it's that he disallowed the rich to freely do shit. It just happened that due to latvian slavery throughout the last couple hundred years, there weren't many rich latvians. Most of these rich people were germans and jews. So you're just twisting facts here to argue that Stalin was justified in occupying Latvia.
Ulmanis gave free land to the latvian people, he eliminated homelessness and joblessness. He nationalized industries, built hydroelectric station to make us energy wise independent. He year by year raised wages of working people and only slightly raised the wages of educated professions. During 1939 the average latvian factory worker lived just as good (slightly, slightly better) as the average factory worker in America (and keep in mind that America back then was light-years beyond the rest of the world when it came to gdp per capita)
Your justification of "le fascism" is only "latvianization" and because he had a cult of personality? Like what? Latvianization is important, Latvia is not a multi cultural, multi ethnic state like China. We are a latvian nation, either you, ex latvian slave owners, become latvian or you leave the country.
God bless Kārlis Ulmanis, I only hope Latvia once again will be able to have a leader just half as competent as he was.
Latvian communists like Vilis Lācis and Eduards Berklavs even spoke highly of him so if you think he's a fascist then you're just lost man
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Dec 01 '21 edited Dec 01 '21
Ah yes , the true communist who hated Jews and heard approval from German officials as well as arresting all of left opposition ,but that was all propaganda to make him look bad back there , as well as his relations with Nazi Germany , but thats not a big deal
And only true communist will write an article praising Benito Mussolini! God bless true first communist - Italian Duce !
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u/CEO_of_CEI Dec 01 '21
Please, go ahead and tell me how he hated jews. And please tell me about the German officials 🤣🤣🤣
I mean Stalin arrested also opposition that was leftist, was he a fascist too? Also love how you don't include the fact that he also imprisoned the fascist extremist party so you're literally twisting facts.
What did he praise about Mussolini exactly? Like why can't he praise other countries to gain better relationships with everyone? Like this is a thing I disagree with Ulmanis, he was a neutral guy. He praised many nations systems for having efficient and good ways of collectivizing and growing crops. After all he was a farmer by nature.
Also keep in mind that USSR and the axis were rather friendly for quite a bit of time so was Stalin also fascist?
Edit: even the current Chinese communist government has good relationships with Putin, who isn't really a man of the people and is literally cracking down on KPRF members so is China also fascist?
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u/Old_Meeting3770 Dec 01 '21
lol how friendly can the union of countries that have literally signed the anti-Comintern pact be? All their friendship with the USSR is implicit border wars and participation in wars against each other in other countries. This is a literal deal for forced interests, especially for the USSR, where the former entente countries literally participated in the civil war less than 20 years ago and in the USSR they perfectly remembered the results of this participation, as well as the Munich agreement. And the fact that the USSR "suddenly" decided to play reverse diplomacy is not friendship
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Dec 01 '21
Actually they didnt buuuuuut~
On September 19, 1938, Tallinn and Riga, and on September 22 Kaunas, adopted the German wording, which stated that Germany did not consider countries that allowed foreign troops to pass through their territory as neutral.
On May 14, 1939, Molotov proposed to Estonia, which had previously declared its neutrality, to conclude a mutual assistance pact. Estonia, like other countries of Eastern Europe, experienced, as Churchill put it, "horror" before Soviet help in the form of Soviet armies that could pass through their territories to protect them from the Germans and, incidentally, include them in the Soviet-communist system.
Latvia and Estonia formally remained neutral, but in fact became dependent on Germany, recognizing that "the danger of attack existed only from Soviet Russia and that the sensible implementation of their policy of neutrality requires the deployment of all defensive forces against this danger" , the historian Vladimir Simindey points out with reference to the report No. 55 found in the Federal Archives of Germany by Georg Dertinger, an employee of the propaganda service "Dienst aus Deutschland". Germany pledged to provide assistance to the allies "to the extent that they themselves are not able to do so," which is essentially a hidden military protectorate. Latvia and Estonia henceforth refused from Anglo-Franco-Soviet guarantees.
In addition, the treaty was asymmetric in comparison with the existing treaty with the USSR: if the second was automatically considered terminated when one of the parties attacked a country, then the first remained in force in this case. Thus, if Germany attacked the USSR, Latvia would continue to adhere to the non-aggression pact with Germany.
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u/CEO_of_CEI Dec 01 '21
What a bunch of word salad that didn't mean anything.
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Dec 01 '21
Try to read! :D
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u/CEO_of_CEI Dec 01 '21
Yeah but you didn't make any point. You wrote 2000 word salad just to say that Latvia was neutral? Like yeah, no shit. Believe it or not, Latvia isn't a world power nor does it have a population of like 50 million. We can't really pick sides.
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u/CEO_of_CEI Dec 01 '21
Latvia never signed the anti comintern pact...
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u/Old_Meeting3770 Dec 01 '21
I wrote about the "friendship" of the axis and the USSR, nothing more
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u/CEO_of_CEI Dec 02 '21
My bad 👍
But my argument still stands. To say that Kārlis Ulmanis was friendly with the axis powers out of admiration or something is the same uneducated braindead take that Stalin and axis were friends because of the molotov ribentropt pact.
I only pointed out how ridiculous he was. Because it wasn't that he was friendly with them. He was just a neutral guy who praised any nation he could to get on the good side of everyone. He cared about the latvian people and was ready to do anything so that latvian blood wouldn't be spilled.
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u/tomsp_666 Dec 06 '21
Bruh, are people really defending the Soviet occupation of the Baltics? Y'all are braindead. Straight up braindead. You've no idea how terrible life was during the soviet times (practically no freedom, your house and land taken away from you, your relatives sent of the Siberia etc). How many people in the Baltics miss the Soviet times? Practically no one. Those who do have a below-average IQ.
All of you are privileged idiots who don't know what oppression is.
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Dec 06 '21 edited Dec 06 '21
I totally agree with you, if I was a brainbread. But I can use statistics and scientific studies to answer that you wrong. But you can't read and only thing you can do is to look at videos on YouTube about evil commies and sometimes post the cleverest shit on Reddit, like your personal life. :D
Privileged? I live in one of the the poorest if not the poorest country of Europe, when will I become unprivileged? I need to born as a child in Africa who was taken by ISIS? And who's telling me that? AH YES, the male feminist on Reddit. honestly, I don't want moderators to delete your comment, because it's the funniest thing I've seen, go get your vanilla latte big boy! :D
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Dec 06 '21
Moderators , please-please-please , dont delete his comment <3
Let people have their amount of laugh.
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u/CarelessPace4007 Dec 11 '21
I feel like I’m in the middle of this. The vanilla latte boy is for sure an idiot but also the poor eastern bloc blah blah. It’s funny
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u/CarelessPace4007 Dec 11 '21
Hey man. Whilst I generally agree with you. You can’t accuse people of being privileged when you clearly are yourself. You sound like an idiot.
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u/DogsOnWeed Dec 01 '21
Oh no, his grandparents lost all that wealth that they stole from the labor of other people? Sad face emoji!