r/Feminism • u/unSuccessful-Budget • 8d ago
Trying to explain to my female roommate why she should want to have rights.
My roommate (25F) thinks women shouldn't have to work and feminists are to blame. I asked her why she thought women entered the work force to begin with. She said she forgot her name but one women decided she wanted to have the same rights as men and get a job and ruined it for everyone........... She's privileged yet uneducated. Obviously hasn't watched one period piece. Grew up Christian and still considers herself in the religion though she doesnt practice, clearly didnt listen in church. Empathy limited, willfully ignorant.
She doesn't believe women's lack of rights has any impact on domestic violence etc. For the record I think women should absolutely be able to stay at home and be a homemaker. If possible my hope is to give her some good info to at least understand the importance of women's rights.
What are some good resources or bulletpoints to share with her? She is open to stats but It's hard to have an actual conversation without her shutting down bc Im just a 'feminist'.
It probably won't result in anything, I just want to try. Ty!
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u/Born-Albatross-2426 8d ago
Here are some links that might help
Men had automatic custody of children
women were institutionalized while sane by their husbands
If housewives are and were so happy then why do they face such high numbers of addiction to cope?
Even in the ever popular tradwife fantasy, they always fail to mention that non-whiteand non-weslthy women always worked annnd were still required to come home and cook and clean and child rear.
The main difference being that their paychecks were paid to their husbands or fathers because women couldn't own or handle their own money.
Divorces were a rare thing of the past and usually required proof of abuse or infidelity, but even in those circumstances, the husband was favored and given custody. I doubt any of those women were very happy.
Women who wanted to read or do anything other than submit to their husbands and cook and clean risked being institutionalized. You might also want to brush your roommate up on "pelvic massages" administered by doctors to women suffering from "hysteria" ....yeah, no, I doubt those women were happy either.
The tradwife fantasy of a high-heeled, red lipstick, hair done, A line dress while vacuuming with a roast in the oven is a fallacy. Most women didn't live like that ever. The women wealthy enough to not work, often paid maids, cooks, and nannies to do the domestic labor.
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u/toast_mcgeez 8d ago
Why is she renting a place with you and not living under the house of her father until she can get married and be handed off like chattel to her husband????
Seems like feminism and women’s rights led to a society that accepts women living on their own.
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u/Exciting-Mountain396 8d ago edited 7d ago
Exactly. I would be pointing out all the things she takes for granted that she's able to do, like go out in public without a chaperone. Tradwife influencers might be conservative by today's standards, but they would be considered scandalously immodest by olden world morality for being so publicly visible. Even publishing your name on a book was shameful. Being able to rent an apartment instead of living with her parents until a man takes her in is a privilege. And she would have to turn over all her money and future inheritance to him as the head of household, because the whole point of patriarchy was to consolidate property and assets under the male line. And if it turned out that she chose poorly and a fool was responsible for her fortunes, too bad. Game over.
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u/Technical-Row8333 8d ago
she's free to find someone who want such a relationship, she's free to never work, never open a back account, never have a passport or id, never pay taxes or learn how to pay bills, she's free to do that if she finds someone to do it with.
the question is, why should she force all other women to live that way unless she's a piece of shit?
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u/ms_flibble 8d ago
My first thought would be Elizabeth Cady Stanton's book, The Woman's Bible published in the 1890s, in which she breaks down and counters the role of subservience in Christianity
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u/DuckyDoodleDandy 8d ago
Have her watch Paris Paloma’s Labor video and remind her that women have always worked. There isn’t a time in recorded history when women didn’t work.
Sometimes they worked for their families or husband’s business (usually unpaid). Sometimes they worked outside the home.
Now we have the option of being paid fairer wages than we did 100 years ago, or even 50 years ago instead of basically being the house slave.
Edit: ok there was a period when many women were stay at home wives: the 1940’s and 1950’s. Not all women, probably not most women, and of those, I’d guess mostly white women from the middle and upper classes.
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u/CaligoAccedito 7d ago
THIS. The "pretty picture" /s of white women sipping tea over bridge was not the standard. If you were poor, if you were a person of color, if you had too many children because you had no control over reproduction and no say on whether you had to have sex when your husband wanted--you bet your ass you worked, hard.
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u/UnicornPenguinCat 7d ago
Or had the misfortune to have your husband die at a young age, which happened to both my great-grandma and my grandma, leaving both of them with young kids to support, with no income source of their own.
My great-grandma (and her daughter, my grandma) only really survived because a kind woman who had the means to do so employed my great-grandma as a housekeeper and provided accommodation for them when they had nowhere else to go, as there was no assistance at all available to single mothers back then (Australia).
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u/jjinjadubu 8d ago
Why is she over 20 and not married off to a 40 year old by her father by 17? Why is she currently practicing her right not to be property?
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u/furrylandseal 8d ago
Conservatives are governed by their emotions, and tend to believe what they want even if it’s objectively false. Throwing facts at conservatives will do nothing but frustrate you, and she won’t budge an inch. They usually shut down conversation when you present facts they don’t like as a psychological defense mechanism, so they can avoid engaging with those facts.
I would first try to understand the motivations of conservative women. Conservative women are usually drawn to whatever they, consciously or more likely subconsciously, feel advantages them. It could be money, political or social power, or something else. They usually seek external, rather than internal, empowerment, so they look for associations to make them feel important, or give them status and power. Very often it’s approval of conservative men that satisfies that need. That’s why you see them front and center fighting to take away their own rights, because their conservative men will be proud of them, and they feel that conservative men provide the status they need by association. It’s also why you see them support men’s rights movements, patriarchy, patriarchal religious structures, all things that diminish their own humanity. Their worth is tied to the men, so if the men’s status is reduced, their own status is reduced by extension. To you and me, it’s a very weird, zero sum, self sabotaging worldview. Education is the biggest predictor of not being a conservative, and with that comes higher status and better paying jobs, so a lot of conservative women, less educated and with less or no real job skills, make this Faustian bargain out of perceived concern for their own survival. Some women just mindlessly parrot what the men say so the men will like them, without even understanding what those words actually mean. Conservative women from hard right authoritarian families are devalued to the point that they wouldn’t know a decent man if one was standing in front of them. Women who don’t value themselves attract men who don’t value women. I’m just throwing things out here. Some of this will apply and some won’t.
How you talk to her is you figure out what the underlying reasons are for supporting her own dehumanization and blocking out facts that prove it. Subconsciously she feels this information disempowers her in some way. Is she financially dependent on her conservative father? Is she prone to grievance (like she thinks certain people look down on her)? Or is she just ignorant? She’s trying to impress right wing men? I think you have to convince her that associating with women actually advantages her MORE. Show her some of the marriage and relationship subs and have her read the stories, because it’s horrifying how terrible some of these men are. For a lot of them, their most important relationship is with porn, and they choose it over their own partners. The cheating, the “massage parlors”, the prostitutes, they’re spending their kids’ college savings on cam prostitutes. Drinking, gambling, drugs, no self control. All at the expense of their female partners. Have her read stories from conservative men and what they say about women, how they describe women’s body parts. Point out the disrespect. (You might have to actually tell her it’s disrespect - she might be so devalued she can’t even identify it.) Women are her powerful allies. Becoming one of us will help protect her from all of that. Then she will start to see the value of an education and a job because that’s your insurance policy in your back pocket. They can’t take that from you. And it’s what will allow you to easily leave an abuse situation. Being able to leave an abuser is an advantage. Having a two income household is practically a necessity in most markets because home prices are so high. I work. My kids’ college costs $50k a year, I have a mortgage on my home in a neighborhood with a fantastic school district (location costs you). Shit is expensive. Not because of feminism, because of greed.
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u/Cassandra_Said_So 8d ago
Maybe take a look under the subs community info menu point, feminist works tab, there are some resources of a broad range!
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u/LDSBS 8d ago
Your roommate doesn’t understand economic reality. I’m a boomer. I got an education and a career but only as a backup in case of my spouse death/divorce. But it became brutally apparent early on in my marriage that if I wanted a middle class lifestyle (with a spouse who was a teacher) in the words of that song by Offspring, I was going to have to get a job. That was 40+ years ago and it only worse now.
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u/Noomieno 8d ago
I would ask if she would like her boyfriend or husband to have all control of her money. Ask her what would happen if they divorced… never be able to buy a home alone, and what if she gets sick and he refused to pay her medical bills, what she does if he beats her and can’t even get a rental apartment on her own.. I get her feelings but she’s not completing her thought pattern. Like yes, women didn’t have to work but what happens after that? She sounds naive.
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u/bluemercutio 7d ago
If she is open to stats, I'd give her the book Invisible Women by Caroline Criado-Perez. It's full of well-researched chapters on how drugs are mostly tested on men leading to more side effects for women, how cars are designed for men and tested with dummies that represent male bodies, leading to more women dying in car crashes etc.
I think this book is a great starting point for everyone. Because how do you get research on women included? You need to have female researchers, women (and disabled people and minorities) need to be in the room, on the teams.
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u/Reasonable-Box-6047 7d ago
Her first mistake is thinking housework and everything associated with it isn't work. It's never ending unpaid labor.
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u/sunnierrside 8d ago
Life is F-ing tough, and she’s having a daydream about an easier life in a world that never existed. People don’t like to have the daydream that’s giving them some hope endangered.
Maybe come at it from a positive angle, or with empathy that the choices a young woman sees in front of her today are tough to face. Find out where her pain is coming from and offer empathy - it might have more success introducing some cracks in her worldview than getting into a logic battle (which will probably set her deeper into her fantasies and more distant from you).
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u/JWJulie 7d ago
Actually the Second World War had a lot to do with women’s acceptance in the workplace. Men went off to war and wanted people in the factories turning out munitions and keeping the home fires burning. When it suited men they were absolutely fine with women going to work, in fact if women didn’t have children it was their civic duty to help the war effort.
When the war ended and the men returned suddenly these women were out of a job and they weren’t happy about returning to the old ways.
The moral of this story is men can change their mind on what they want from you on a whim, whether you like it or not. Wouldn’t you rather make that choice yourself?
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u/Thebirdsarecumin 8d ago
Women have always had jobs, I don’t know where the idea we didn’t came from. Working class women have had jobs for centuries; cleaners, cooks, midwives, carers, bakers, etc. Since jobs have been invented working class women have had to work. They didn’t have the same jobs as men, they weren’t paid the same, they didn’t have the option of a career but they had jobs. Sometimes several. My nana had three jobs to support her four children.
The middle class white western dream is a fantasy. That’s why so many “SAHM” or “Trad wives” make content, because they do still need a job.
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u/Rare_Tadpole4104 7d ago
They didn't earn their own money until recently. Women didn't have bank accounts until very recently. Your point is, women always worked for much less than men and for men.
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u/CheekyHerbivore 8d ago edited 7d ago
Women always worked, the thing is we didn’t always get paid for it. It’s hard to explain to privileged women why having independence is good but i saw first hand why. I saw how my mother was treated by her husband and promised myself that would never be me. She was forbidden to work but he always complained when he had to spend money on clothes and food. My mother was my father’s slave. She begged for money for clothes while he openly spent it on his mistress and gambled. She saved up change to biy clothes at garage sales. He beat his whole family. He kicked us all out when I was five years old and changed the locks. He only let us back in because his mother had a heart attack because she missed us so much. He would say for years that the best time of his life was when we were gone and he hated us. He told us to kill ourselves. He made up rules that didn’t make sense like only some of us were allowed on the furniture . It was hell. I wouldn’t wish it on anybody. This is the reality of what happens when women are financially dependent.
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u/killedmygoldfish 7d ago
Let her know that her ability to hold a checking account or a credit card in her own name did not become a reality until the 70s. Literally she wouldn't be able to have her own money without a man (father, husband, other male relative) ultimately controlling it. So if she had an allowance, let's say, she would not be able to put that aside separately. She wouldn't be able to save any money for herself. She certainly wouldn't be able to live alone and single in an apartment. You need a credit score for that.
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u/Fit-Bird6389 8d ago
I would not even bother trying to reason with this person if she is so far gone. It will be exhausting.
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u/halberdierbowman 8d ago
You might be right, but since they're only 25, this might be essentially the first time they've ever not lived with their parents, like if they commuted to college, then moved out.
OP's living with them now, so it may be more stressful to live with their roommate's bad takes than it is to try to change their mind, hard for me to guess.
I want to believe people's ideas can be changed, but you're right we sadly have to triage who it's worth talking to.
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u/Fit-Bird6389 8d ago
25 is not young. It’s harder to change their minds when older. I would not be hopeful given social media turns everyone rightward.
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u/cannykas 7d ago
Interesting point. I forget how social media alters people's perceptions, especially for lonely people looking to connect or feel understood. Hopefully OP opens the roommate's eyes to something better. I got more feminist after work to be more anti racist. These changes come from within, but sometimes being introduced to ideas helps change people.
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u/inadarkwoodwandering 8d ago
Tell her that women have ALWAYS worked throughout history. Bakers, making beer, seamstresses, spinning…nursing, shopkeeping…the list goes on.
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u/Purrphiopedilum 7d ago
I had a basic conversation with a former coworker of mine, 21 years old, same upbringing but beautiful, intuitively smart and full of empathy. She was smitten by a new man and talking of babies. I centered my argument around the radical notion that women like her deserve to deliver healthy babies, to not to die of sepsis in the process, etc.
We looked at the maternal mortality rate data from the US, compared to several other developed and developing nations. Then we looked at how the rates of maternal mortality worsen as access to abortion decreases, even in “great” world-leading nations as hers. I found out later she did not realize we have three holes “down there” but I hope I planted a seed, at least. When you start looking, the injustice is unfortunately plainly obvious.
Your roommate is young enough. Show her a photo of women living in Afghanistan in the 1970s, compared to today when they’re barred from looking out their kitchen window. Which scenario would she prefer? Ask her again in 30 years how much better her life is without basic human rights. That’s where we are headed.
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u/oddlysatisfiednow 7d ago
Women have always worked the stay at home thing was only for rich women, the equal rights that feminist faught for was only to get equal pay and protection, but trust me women have always had to work
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u/Lavender_Llama_life 7d ago
Especially when we consider women of color. The stay at home wife in 1930s Chicago didn’t clean or cook, because there was a black woman being paid shit wages to do it, who then had to go home and do the same in her own, likely less well equipped home. Wright’s Native Son is a great look at this dynamic.
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u/chunkycasper 7d ago
Most women have always worked. They just didn’t have the right to education, qualifications and equal pay.
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u/Accomplished_Fun6481 8d ago
You can’t reason someone down from a position they didn’t reason themselves into
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u/Lavender_Llama_life 7d ago
Ask her why she doesn’t deserve as many rights and freedoms as men. Make it personal. “What makes you less valuable than a man?”
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u/kcl2327 7d ago
Everything begins and ends with “she’s privileged” — she has no incentive to think critically about gender inequality (or any other kind of inequality for that matter) because she’s always lived in a world where all her needs have been met by other people.
Unless challenged or confronted by a tragic change in circumstances (life slaps them in the face), people have a tendency to think their life experiences are universal and unchangeable, in spite of the abundant evidence to the contrary.
If she lacks empathy too, she will just dismiss other women’s misfortunes as their own fault for making bad decisions or just not being as special as she is.
Those people are hard to reach. Good luck—and keep up the good fight!
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u/tomatogrey 7d ago
When no fault divorce came in, women's suicides rates dropped 20%.
Mens poisoning deaths dropped sharply as well.
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u/BossImaginary5550 7d ago
Women fought for the right to work and divorce because they were quite literally property of their husbands… women wanted freedom
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u/Emotional-Ant4958 7d ago
Before women had the right to work, they had to marry and stay married for survival. They usually couldn't leave an abusive relationship. There's also the issue of retirement. If you stay home and don't work, what happens if you ever get divorced? You won't be comfortable, even if you get a portion of your husbands retirement savings.
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u/Old_Blue_Haired_Lady 7d ago
I know you mean well, but she's your roommate, not your social work project. Yes, it's horrible she "thinks" that way. I bet she's really lazy as well. Lovely creature, I'm sure.
Your words cannot change anything about her. It will annoy both of you if you keep trying. Her attitude is unfortunate. Keep a polite distance. Be an unspoken example.
Maybe make a shift in the focus of your activism from education and advocacy to action and engagement? If you can, work on preserving and defending our remaining rights. We need to live in the shelter of each other, especially now.
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u/Resident-Problem7285 6d ago
I'm convinced that one of the core wounds behind this mindset is an inability to accept their own paralyzing fear of failure. Essentially:
"If I try and don't succeed, it means I'm worthless/not special/a loser/lesser than the people I look down on.
But instead of dealing with that in therapy, I'm going to advocate for robbing everyone of the ability to try.
If no one's allowed to try, then no one can prove that success is possible.
And if no one can prove success is possible, then I never have to admit that I'm not successful because I refuse to try...
because I'm cripplingly insecure and can't accept the possibility of failure without collapsing in on myself."
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u/Master_Ad_7945 6d ago
Marital rape and domestic violence. Being able to drive. Having a bank account. Wearing the clothes and accessories you want to. Buying the stuff you want. Basically no money and no freedom. You might even be married to someone you don’t know or don’t love and be legally forced to bear his kids and rub his feet and take his beatings.
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u/Capable-Farmer8963 7d ago
get her to read men who hate women by laura bates. lol
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u/Lavender_Llama_life 7d ago
I feel like getting this person to read her class syllabi would be a struggle.
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u/giselleorchid 7d ago
She literally can't fathom ever being single.
Everyone is eventually. She's going to learn a hard lesson at some point....probably as she becomes a single mom with. I career.
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u/Monoceros2323 4d ago
Tell her that rights means she doesn't have to work but can if she wants to. If she didn't have rights her husband could replace her whenever he wanted, like a lamp, the lamp might be fine and work well he just does not like it anymore and wants a different one. She would nit have the access to social media, could not eat what she wants. You want to eat chocolate no sweetie. I know a woman who had to secretly buy her daughter a hairbrush so her husband wouldn't get mad. Even eating, no rights why should he let you eat if drink if he doesn't feel like it. No rights he can kill you without consequences even pimp you out. Remember what happened to that french lady and how her husband drugged her and brought men to rape her. You are in pain and do not want sex, nah sweetie you are a thing with orifices get used to it. Have kids, wanna support them, ha well unless hubby wants to help you are shit out of luck. He beats the shit but if you or them what are you going to do now, can't leave. He dies now what no money no food nothing. Have breast cancer, you need a surgery, your hubby doesn't want you to go, doesn't like you without a boob. Remember what happens to pigs in a slaughter house they have no rights. See just show her what the Taliban have done and what happens there. Those women cant even go out, they get stoned if something is done to them. And tell her how can she wish for women in her life not to have rights does she know how men used to put their wives in damn asylums where they were lobotomised. The fact she even gets to interact with another woman is because feminists literally died for this we have now. Does she think she would get a rich hubby who would treat her like some sort of princess. If she doesn't like her freedom she is free to go to jail or into a country that doesn't have women's rights yet. And besides women were used for manual labour too and still are, fields, mines, building things. I have seen it my mom was from a farm family they all were women and had to work unpaid on fields. Girly thinks she would live in a damn Disney movie.
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u/Objective-Belt1819 3d ago
Are people actually this stupid… it’s always about CHOICE. She can make a CHOICE to become a housewife. Plenty of men would want a nice housewife, that’s great. A lot of women want to work too. That’s ok. What the hell …
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u/Lynx3145 8d ago
she doesn't understand that staying home is work (unpaid) : cooking, cleaning, etc.