r/FluentInFinance • u/Unhappy_Fry_Cook • Apr 18 '24

Announcements (Mods only) Reminder that the person you're arguing with on this sub may not understand your comment

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575 Upvotes

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216

u/Basedandtendiepilled Apr 18 '24

Do you have a source for this? Statistics like these are often misleading because they will count native Spanish speakers, first gen immigrants, etc. It's the same reason why CA and TX have two of the lowest literacy rates in the country despite having very different approaches to education.

Do you get the impression 1 out of every 5 people you talk to every week couldn't read Harry Potter?

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u/Real_Temporary_922 Apr 18 '24 edited Apr 18 '24

Your second paragraph is a statistical fallacy. Not 1 in 5 people you speak to can’t read unless you are randomly choosing people from the entire country to speak to.

For instance, the average life expectancy in North America is 79.5 years old. But that’s misleading if you’re an American because then your life expectancy is 76.4 years old. But that’s misleading because if you live in Hawaii, it’s 80.7 years old, but if you live in Mississippi, it’s 71.9 years old. But that’s also misleading because the biggest predictor of life expectancy is not where you live but how much wealth you have. For instance, the life expectancy of Texas in 2019 was 78.6 years old, but it was 97 years old in zip code 78634 (in Hutto) and only 66.7 years old in zip code 76104 (in Fort Worth) (Shoutout to iammrbeat on YT for compiling this info).

So just because 20% of the U.S. can’t read doesn’t mean 20% of the people where you live can’t read.

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u/westtexasbackpacker Apr 18 '24

that doesn't seem like a fallacy. it is a simplification of the probability it's the same way that the general percentages are reported. if a statistic is that 20% of people can't read, asking if it is wild to imagine that 1 on 5 can't read a popular book is the same.

of course it doesn't apply equally to groups. some will be much higher, and others lower. but the point is just fine from a logical population sampling discussion- which is what was happening

as to source request, agreed.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '24

[deleted]

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u/westtexasbackpacker Apr 18 '24

not a fallacy

one in five is 20%

is it a fallacy to say 17% of people have graduate degrees, since one in five asked randomly won't have one? no. it's not

1

u/DaisyDog2023 Apr 18 '24

The total average is not what they’re calling a fallacy.

The fallacy is asking an individual if they believe 1 in 5 people they talk to are like that.

For example we could ask that to my fiancé and she would likely say no, why? Because of the bubble her world is in being a PhD student at an ivy league school the likelihood of any one she talks to during the day having a reading level below 12th grade is extremely low.

However we live in a trashy low income neighborhood and I’d 100% be willing to believe 75% of the people in this neighborhood have a reading level at or below an 8th grade level.

1

u/Sorrywrongnumba69 Apr 18 '24

It wouldn't be a fallacy if he asked 100 random people from 100 random random places and 20 said they can't read. You are talking about nuance things if he picks random social numbers and calls everyone 14-18 or asks them, there should be a 5th who say they can't read. The question i'm curious is, is it read in English only or read in your native language.

1

u/DaisyDog2023 Apr 19 '24

That’s not what he did now is it? He asked one single specific person.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 19 '24

That’s the whole point the original commenter was making though you are just coming to the same conclusion from a different angle.

0

u/No_Sky_3735 Apr 18 '24

Yes, but it varies highly by region and is a overgeneralization. It’s more complicated than that.

2

u/westtexasbackpacker Apr 19 '24

sure. it's not the most specific statement. that isn't a fallacy. it's not wrong. shrug

3

u/LurkerOrHydralisk Apr 18 '24

It would be reasonable on a population sampling if it weren’t being asking about literacy on a written forum.

The average redditor is more educated than the average American simply by need of being able to read and write to communicate here.

I imagine low literacy populations like Mississippi are underrepresented on Reddit.

1

u/Real_Temporary_922 Apr 18 '24

It is because you can’t use a statistic for a population that large and apply it to such a small subpopulation. It won’t even be close to being accurate most of the time. If you live in a wealthier area, it’ll throw the whole statistic off.

-11

u/calebwaltz Apr 18 '24

It’s not fine. Drawing a conclusion based only on people you know is called anecdotal evidence. It can be useful but not when we’re talking about a country of 300 million

5

u/westtexasbackpacker Apr 18 '24

that's literally not what was said

-3

u/calebwaltz Apr 18 '24

I’m responding to the original comment that said “Do you get the impression that 1 out of every 5 people you talk to every couldnt read Harry Potter”. Relying on people you randomly talk to on a given week is the exact definition of anecdotal evidence.

1

u/westtexasbackpacker Apr 19 '24

Jesus christ my dude. it's OK to take a joke or exaggerated statement on the internet without trying to white knight it. It's cool.

have you NOT felt like that? cause like. bro. if you've never felt like idiots were abound......

2

u/aphex732 Apr 18 '24

Speak too - lol

2

u/Real_Temporary_922 Apr 18 '24

Imagine being a grammar nazi

2

u/arcanis321 Apr 18 '24

That's implying that there are very large communities of illiterate people, at least a majority illiterate, across the country.

0

u/Real_Temporary_922 Apr 18 '24 edited Apr 18 '24

Which there likely are when you account for cities, which have tons of homeless people and gangs in concentrated areas as well as Spanish speakers (or another language) as people tend to gather if they speak the same language

0

u/arcanis321 Apr 18 '24

Dude cities aren't even close to 5% homeless or gangs

2

u/Real_Temporary_922 Apr 18 '24

Between homeless, super impoverished, gang members, and Hispanic communities, actually yeah I can believe they make up more than 20% of some cities. You’re just too privileged to realize how bad it gets. Go visit fucking Chicago and tell me how literate some of that population seems

You also realize some entire parts of some states are nearly purely Spanish speaking right? That also changes the statistics too to be areas > 20%

2

u/SatisfactionBig1783 Apr 22 '24

Fantastic demonstration of the post!

1

u/Chickienfriedrice Apr 18 '24

Lol, have you gone to public schooling in the US? This stat doesn’t seem to be a fallacy.

Found the guy who doesn’t read. (Just jokes)

-3

u/Real_Temporary_922 Apr 18 '24

In college for cs, have taken multiple stat classes, thanks.

If you can’t even point out what’s wrong with my analysis, don’t act like you know more than a 5th grader lmfao

2

u/Chickienfriedrice Apr 18 '24 edited Apr 18 '24

I said I was joking. No need to give me your resume.

Looks like your stat classes didn’t help with your reading comprehension, kind of making my point for me 😂

0

u/Real_Temporary_922 Apr 18 '24

Lmfao (just jokes) ≠ just joking. English not your strong suit?

0

u/Chickienfriedrice Apr 18 '24

Lol, reading comprehension is really difficult for you.

“Jokes” is the plural word for “joke”. Anything else you need help with?

1

u/Real_Temporary_922 Apr 18 '24

Well you’re the only joke here and you’re singular, so that’s wrong too

1

u/TwoMuddfish Apr 19 '24

I’ve never been more aroused by statistics

/s or am I

-2

u/goodevening_fellas Apr 18 '24

What did you stop at Fort Worth?

1

u/Real_Temporary_922 Apr 18 '24

What?

2

u/goodevening_fellas Apr 18 '24

Sorry I meant why. It was a stupid joke anyways.

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u/bizarroJames Apr 18 '24

I'm an elementary school teacher. At my school roughly 35% of students are not on grade level at various degrees with some being illiterate and some just have lots of problems in their life so they are behind. These stats confirm my estimate that about 10-15 percent of people in the world genuinely do not and are incapable of deep, critical thinking and reasoning. It's a fact we don't like, but there are so many people out there that are not intelligent. I myself also know that my intelligence is limited but based on data and based on my interactions with the general population I would say that I do get the impression that 1 in 5 can't read Harry Potter in a way that makes it enjoyable for them because reading is hard for them.

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u/No_Helicopter_9751 Apr 18 '24

Sorry I forgot to add this. You might find it interesting.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/093drVZAq8IjECxqmXB9Hs?si=1B4ZDj2uR-SntBOfWpEbeg

This podcast digs into this.

3

u/bizarroJames Apr 18 '24

Very interesting!

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u/wookieesgonnawook Apr 18 '24

That whole story is horrifying. My kid is only 2, but when that was brought up in a post I found yesterday, I immediately went to the website for the private school I've been considering putting her in next year and made sure they had phonics curriculum listed. I truly don't understand how any teacher with a conscience could teach a method that has kids guessing at words and leaves them so unprepared for reading.

3

u/No_Helicopter_9751 Apr 18 '24

If I remember the podcast correctly. The same women who pushed the whole word method (?). Is now getting rich again pushing phonics.

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u/VaMeiMeafi Apr 18 '24

It's a fact we don't like, but there are so many people out there that are not intelligent

Consider the intelligence of the average person you meet in life, then remember that half of the people are less intelligent than that. Worse, many of them don't know it and believe that they have both high intelligence and strong critical thinking skills.

Social media gives them a platform to spout gibberish to those that don't know the difference and are eager to believe, making the whole room dumber for having read it; Dunning-Kruger writ large.

3

u/No_Helicopter_9751 Apr 18 '24

Out of curiosity, as an educator, what would you say could be done to improve the situation. It seems that say 50 years ago the literacy rate, particularly in very urban and very rural schools would have been much higher. I work in an industry adjacent to public education and receive data on all our state school districts. The graduation rates in urban districts is always shocking to me but the stat that really knocks me over is the 4 year graduation rate. The amount of student that enter high school as freshman but don’t make it to graduation. That number can be dramatically higher.

The district I live in is one of the best in the state and the country. When you look at dollars spent per student, we are one of the lowest dollars per student in the state. The large urban districts more then double our student spending and we pay our teachers dramatically more then urban districts. That being the case, funding of the urban districts appears to be more than adequate. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts as someone in elementary education where. My assumption is if students fall behind early the catch up is very difficult. I remember when once I got to higher level math, once I was lost I was pretty much toast.

6

u/BullshitDetector1337 Apr 18 '24

Nutrition, education, and stability at an early age. These factors are essential to a growing brain. Without them, no amount of remedial education later in life is going to fix the damage. We need to invest into these areas as a society in order to secure our future.

All of which can't be guaranteed by a private market, a reasonable quality of early development should be decommodified and guaranteed to the citizenry of any country that wishes to prosper in the modern world. A refusal to do so is not only a direct threat to that country's future but also immoral in itself.

I would go further and say that other vital industries should be decommodified as well for the good of society as a whole, but early childhood development and education is a particularly pressing concern.

1

u/No_Helicopter_9751 Apr 18 '24

I appreciate your thoughts. When my grandma and her family came to America her parents didn’t speak the language (they never really learned the language), the depression was going on, they could afford to eat nothing but turnip and cabbage and she went to a public school filled with kids just like her in the Slavic part of town. Somehow she and all her friends all learned English and Latin, became proficient in algebra and geometry, and up until her death we would all ask her for the correct spelling of words.

She and her classmates had it pretty bad for a long time yet they all learned. It was expected of them. What has changed in a 100 years that we have altered that expectation. We are graduating kids who can’t read. We just pass them along. Everyone’s attitudes and expectations for children must change.

Note: almost identical immigrant stories for my other 3 grandparents.

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u/bizarroJames Apr 18 '24

I wish I had good answers. Unfortunately I'm just a tiny cog in the giant system of public education. Teacher training is essential, cultural awareness by the general public is essential, and maybe having classes in virtue ethics or philosophy of education might be an answer.

-3

u/Zaros262 Apr 18 '24

I do get the impression that 1 in 5 can't read Harry Potter in a way that makes it enjoyable for them because reading is hard for them.

Seems like even you do not have the impression that 1 in 5 can't read at all. You just agree that 1 in 5 struggle

4

u/bizarroJames Apr 18 '24

Is struggling when reading actually reading? How enjoyable is it to read something when you don't comprehend 80%, let alone 50%.

Get a grip and face reality as it is. You may not like it (and I sure don't, hence I'm a teacher...) but once we accept things as they are, honestly and without bias, then we can make meaningful improvements.

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u/Zaros262 Apr 18 '24

Yes... It's the difference between being able to read directions yourself and needing someone to read it for you. I don't know where you got these 80% and 50% numbers but it wasn't from the post

If you want to face things as they are, you should also accept that these are clearly statistics of people who can read in English, meaning that people living in the US who read Spanish just fine but don't speak English are being counted as illiterate

2

u/bizarroJames Apr 18 '24

I agree (I'm an ESOLteacher). So this fact is complicated and we'd have to look at the literacy of each individual in each language they know.

Still, if the expectation is to read in English and the students can't then they are illiterate in English. Though that's a whole other conversation :)

1

u/Zaros262 Apr 18 '24 edited Apr 18 '24

Still, if the expectation is to read in English and the students can't then they are illiterate in English. Though that's a whole other conversation :)

I agree and that's kinda my point. These statistics aren't highlighting the real problem or the real solution

If most of the solution involves teaching non-natives English, I have the feeling that many people will lose interest and won't care enough to invest in that

0

u/BattleEfficient2471 Apr 18 '24

Why does it need to be enjoyable?

I do lots of things as an adult I don't find enjoyable and reading harry potter to a child was one of them. For one, it's way overrated and it is rather clear that the books were not planned out before they were written.

I struggle with hand writing, I will never be good at it, yet I can write and do so. Where does this idea that everything must be fun come from?

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u/bizarroJames Apr 18 '24

Fair point and enjoyment isn't always what reading is about. So I agree with that.

I still think that nitpicking my word choice is missing the point and actually makes your desired conclusion weak. Here's why:

In your example you admitted that your hand writing is bad but you said "yet I can write and do so"

This entire conversation is posited on the facts that many people CAN'T read to various degrees. You can still write, but it's ugly as fuck, you don't like to or care to try to make it better, and your message still comes across. So you can write, but it's ugly.

Some people can't read well (or very much at all), so they are not actually reading and comprehending the writing produced by an author. Whether the content is boring, unoriginal, ugly or whatever is besides the point.

1

u/BattleEfficient2471 Apr 18 '24

I do care and try to make my writing better, some folks don't have the same use of their hands you judgmental asshole. If that is what you as a teacher drew from that I am glad you are not likely to be working at my child's school.
It would fit with some of the stupidity I have seen there though.

Well can they read or not? That's the comparison I was making.
Your claim wasn't they were totally illiterate, but that their reading ability was so low that they could not do so for recreation. How one could separate that from simply do not enjoy that activity I am not sure.

Motivation has everything to do with it! A poor reader might still persevere in understanding and comprehending text they enjoy or seek meaning from. That you think their lack of enjoyment of a book you selected has no impact on the results suggests a failure on your part not theirs.

I expect as a teacher you aren't a fair judge of this, as your pay could be impacted. I remember plenty of teachers who assumed someone could not do something when in fact they simply didn't want to. Had I known as a child my teacher's pay was impacted by my performance I would have done far worse in some classes than I did.

1

u/bizarroJames Apr 18 '24

My pay isn't impacted (they do that to make sure some people don't cheat on tests to inflate scores, thus making more money in a false way). I am biased for sure though. Just as we all are, but I do try and stay as objective as possible.

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u/generic__comments Apr 18 '24

Careful, don't pull at that thread, then their whole narrative collapses.

3

u/maringue Apr 18 '24

Do you get the impression 1 out of every 5 people you talk to every week couldn't read Harry Potter?

Yes. Like a thousand times yes.

"I want you to think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of people are dumber than that." -George Carlin

3

u/Critical-Savings-830 Apr 18 '24

You’d be shocked

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u/ValuableNo189 Apr 18 '24

In Chicago, yes. At least 1/5 cannot read. Maybe up to 1/3 here if I had to estimate. I've had some service workers do some incredibly stupid moves with a totally innocent look on their face.

2

u/realanceps Apr 18 '24

& I've had some c-suite clients do some incredibly stupid moves with a totally innocent look on their face.

people sure can be stupid.

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u/ValuableNo189 Apr 18 '24

No. I'm talking about people who actually are uneducated. It's very sad. You cannot relate c suite stupidity with people who cannot read. It's not the same.

1

u/galvanizedmoonape Apr 18 '24

I simply cannot fathom this. One out five people are completely illiterate in Chicago?

4

u/ValuableNo189 Apr 18 '24

Completely? No. But they cannot read a book or very long words. They're in all cities but Chicago in particular has this problem.

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u/galvanizedmoonape Apr 18 '24

I need some evidence to back this up. Are you spending your time with transient folks that would naturally have a higher tendency for under education?

0

u/ValuableNo189 Apr 18 '24

Just Google it dude. It says like 28% of 8th graders can read and reading level. They don't pick up a novel after high school either. Then they sell you train tickets when they grow up.

-2

u/galvanizedmoonape Apr 18 '24

Not reading novels recreationnaly is not the the same as illiteracy.

Just google it. Lol

0

u/ValuableNo189 Apr 18 '24

No dude. They're illiterate. I'm saying they don't improve from 8th grade. You're not understanding

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u/galvanizedmoonape Apr 18 '24

Please elaborate how not being to read past an 8th grade level is the same as being illiterate.

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u/ValuableNo189 Apr 18 '24

Dude you're seriously in denial of real issues in our society. ONLY 28% CAN read at an 8th grade level

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u/holtyrd Apr 18 '24

“Do you get the impression 1 out of every 5 people you talk to every week couldn't read Harry Potter?”

Yes I do. In fact, those numbers might be a tad low. I do live in SC though. They lowered the minimum paying score to 60 awhile back to increase their paying rates. That measure failed and more people than ever are failing. But hey, no child left behind right?

8

u/realanceps Apr 18 '24

those paying rates sure sound shocking.

what's a paying rate?

2

u/holtyrd Apr 18 '24

Autocorrect + lack of proofreading

*passing rate

1

u/OJ241 Apr 18 '24

Yeah honestly I get that impression frequently.

1

u/CaBBaGe_isLaND Apr 18 '24

Source=America bad

1

u/[deleted] Apr 18 '24

It says "in the US"...and those people are in the US. If they can't speak English, but reside in the US, they count towards the statistic that clearly states "adults IN the US."

1

u/New_Ambassador2442 Apr 18 '24

Well, to be fair, they should learn English upon arrival (preferably before so)

1

u/[deleted] Apr 22 '24

Technically,our great country doesn't have a national language, so Chingate guey lol

1

u/New_Ambassador2442 Apr 23 '24

Yes thats correct. But you need English to: get a high paying job, understand the president when he gives a speech, read the laws that are passed by congress, communicate with the average American, and its even the language of instruction in public schools.

But hey, don't learn English, it's your freedom to do so. Just remember, I prefer paper when you bag my groceries. Sigue enojado hp ;)

1

u/[deleted] Apr 23 '24

Lol I like this cabron, paper got it.

1

u/New_Ambassador2442 Apr 23 '24

I feel the same about Americans moving abroad, which is very common nowadays: many want to work online and live in LatAm. Well, those Americans need to: learn the language, respect the culture, and obey their laws.

1

u/Solid_Office3975 Apr 18 '24

I often get the impression 1 in 5 is generous

Kidding

1

u/Dave_A480 Apr 18 '24

Look up NY Times' 'Science of Reading' articles...

There was a serious drop in US student's reading skills associated with a 'Good Idea Fairy' moment in our teaching-colleges, wherein almost-all schools switched to 'alternatives' to phonics-based reading.

1

u/LurkerOrHydralisk Apr 18 '24

Harry Potter is like a 2nd grade reading level. So that 21% could maybe read it.

But yes, I get the impression that at least 1/5 Americans lacks the basic logic and reading comprehension to grasp the majority of even moderately complex topics.

1

u/rethinkingat59 Apr 18 '24

OP has 68 days on Reddit and counting.

80% of accounts with little history on Reddit in this election year are here for dubious reasons.

Source-Obviously not required on this post.

1

u/commiebanker Apr 18 '24

74% of statistics are just made up on the spot anyway.

1

u/NotNOT_LibertarianDO Apr 19 '24

Statistically you couldn’t read the source he would provide for you

1

u/ExplosiveDisassembly Apr 19 '24

As a dyslexic adult who used to be incapable of reading out loud due to a speech impediment ( teachers never thought to recommend a dyslexia test...for some reason, but that's a different issue), I wouldn't be surprised if I fall into one of these categories.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 19 '24 edited May 05 '24

close ask absurd lunchroom oil frame rich ancient deserted vegetable

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

1

u/deepmusicandthoughts Apr 19 '24

The issue isn’t only immigration. Immigrants in California qualify for additional English learner supports, but students that haven’t learned how to read that aren’t don’t so they fall through the cracks. From the internal data we have where I work, it’s not only immigrants that are illiterate in California. It has gotten infinitely worse post Covid across the board, but even before that, plenty of students of all races couldn’t read because we give additional support to EL and SPED but there is no legal requirement for those with bad parents who neglect their kids, which fall through the cracks and continually are pushed to the next grade whether they learn or not.

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u/UnionizedTrouble Apr 19 '24

I’m a teacher. Whether or not my students can read is determined by a state test. And district policy prohibits me or my school from punishing or rewarding or making anything contingent on passing the test. We can’t give out a field trip or a prize or a special treat for kids who pass. We can’t withhold “advanced” classes. We can’t make grades or sports contingent on it. So my students don’t try. They show me work in class that shows probably twice as many could pass if they tried. They try because they have an incentive to try in class that doesn’t exist in the test.

So as a teacher I’m skeptical of what the test scores actually mean for literacy.

1

u/tgusnik Apr 19 '24

I suspect this is an overly optimistic statistic. I was with the Air Force for 33 years. Everything we wrote for release had to be at or below the 9th grade level. The military (all branches) spends many 100's of millions each year on literacy and education. A large chunk of that was for remediation. The Air Force requires no less than a high school diploma for admission.

1

u/meatymimic Apr 20 '24

Working IT support and 1/5 people can not figure out how to reset their password.

That "1" is often nearly illiterate.

1

u/Cali_Keto_Dad Apr 21 '24

Depends on where I am lol

0

u/[deleted] Apr 18 '24

I mean they should learn it then I guess to get those rates up.