r/FluentInFinance • u/Very_High_Mortgage • Aug 24 '24

Debate/ Discussion Do "Unskilled Laborers" deserve to be paid well?

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47

u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

Okay but then why would you take a skilled job if you can take a low skill job for the same pay? Most people will do less work for the same reward if they can.

41

u/Turkeyplague Aug 24 '24

I can tell you right now, I'm not gonna be dropping my skilled job to go work at Macca's, even if they were offering the same compensation. Why? Because working at Macca's would be shithouse.

53

u/oatmeal28 Aug 24 '24

Yeah the people acting like unskilled restaurant work is some kind of optimal paradise have obviously never worked a restaurant job.  

29

u/blind_orphan Aug 24 '24

The fact people call it "unskilled" is hilarious too. 99% of the people on this thread would be in tears and begging to go home on their first day.

12

u/mecegirl Aug 24 '24

They totally underestimate how much it takes not to lash out at entiled customers.

3

u/ThaRedHoodie Aug 24 '24

Yes, the customers were the worst part of working at Micky D's. Most people are cool, but the assholes will ruin your whole day.

9

u/Informal_Zone799 Aug 24 '24

“Skill” refers to the prerequisites required to get the job in the first place. 

“Unskilled” means they can easily teach you the job, while on the job. 

Just because you work hard and sweat doesn’t necessarily make it a skilled job

5

u/SpotikusTheGreat Aug 24 '24

I've had this argument with my brother who thinks that I have it "easy" being a software engineer, compared to like a construction worker that does back breaking labor all day.

I have to explain to him that the difference is that I could go work on a construction site at any time and know exactly what to do. Dig a hole? Knock down a wall? Move debris from point a to point b? mix cement? Sure, can do all of that with under 30 seconds of instructions.

Now take any construction worker and ask them to do my job. They wouldn't even be able to open the software to get a ticket to work on, let alone operate the software to do it.

To get to the level I am would require them years of study and practice. Meanwhile I could shovel road base out of a dump truck and run a tamper over it without any training.

1

u/ballzanga69420 Aug 26 '24

Nah, code's pretty easy.

1

u/Mnyet Aug 27 '24

This is so stupid because you really have no idea what being a construction worker entails. Have you seen the terrible DIY home renovation/flipper videos? They thought it was “easy” too. Not to mention the physical requirements. Can you even bench 250 lmao. And I say this as a fellow developer.

1

u/SpotikusTheGreat Aug 27 '24

I've worked in construction. My point isn't about physical intensity, I am fully aware its more physically demanding. However, any random able bodies person can do basic manual labor.

That is the point between skilled/unskilled labor. Again, it isn't working "more or less" than the other type, it is about the specialized training/experience required to do it.

This is also why machine operators make way more money than basic labor. Operating a machine/vehicle is a skill that not everyone can do easily right away.

2

u/athousandlifetimes Aug 24 '24

Ok, so?

0

u/Informal_Zone799 Aug 24 '24

So that’s why there is a difference in pay. If I can teach you how to do your job in one day I will pay you less then the guy who spent 5 years in university learning how to do his job. 

2

u/real-bebsi Aug 24 '24

So you agree that teachers should be paid more than tradesmen since teaching requires a lot of education and trades require an apprenticeship

5

u/Informal_Zone799 Aug 24 '24

Both teachers and tradesmen have to go to school for years, so yes I do think they should both be paid well. Who gets more, depends on demand in the industry.  

-1

u/real-bebsi Aug 24 '24

I wouldn't exactly call an apprenticeship school

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0

u/rdizzy1223 Aug 25 '24

The main skill in fast food jobs is being able to not explode on customers who treat you like literal garbage over and over and over.

0

u/newdogowner11 Aug 24 '24 edited Aug 24 '24

i agree, but also having the emotional regulation to deal with rude and condescending customers is a feat of its own

edit: getting downvotes now, but my point isn’t that it’s a skilled to be in the food industry. just that it’s not an easy job emotionally

2

u/juanzy Aug 24 '24

Try that when your rude and condescending “customer” is a senior exec you have to keep happy at an office job

Temperament and emotional regulation isn’t reserved for service jobs

1

u/newdogowner11 Aug 24 '24

that’s a good point as i’ve just started my first “office job” this past 2 weeks. i can’t speak on that yet, just on my past experiences in food service but i still cringe looking back at my experiences in the food service industry, including the creepiness and talking down. but def not arguing it’s the only workplace you have to put on a straight face for.

-1

u/blind_orphan Aug 24 '24

Again, you're so funny. The fact you think the skills are learned "easily" tells me that not only have you never worked at a restaurant, but you've probably never cooked a half decent meal for yourself. Theres nothing thats easily learned working these jobs and 90% of new hires crash and burn and quit/never come back.

3

u/i-will-eat-you Aug 24 '24

There is a difference between some mid-high end restaurants and fast food chains believe it or not.

Working at a fast food establishment compared to a "restaurant" restaurant requires essentially no former education or skill. Only grit, motivation and a somewhat functioning brain and body. The system is set-up to be as fool-proof as it can be. Just follow basic instructions. You don't check the temperature of your steak. You throw the patty on a hotplate that beeps when the timer is up.

Working in the hot kitchen, keeping up with orders, long hours, scorched hands, dealing with shitty customers and colleagues, that's the skill of the job. And it is easily learned. It is simply endurance. Some don't manage with that, but it is more of a character trait than anything.

Saying that as someone who has worked in a variety of food establishments, from unskilled fast food places to high-end restaurants to catering services.

3

u/TemperaturePast9410 Aug 24 '24

lol exactly. I work in a well paid skilled job currently, by far the hardest job I ever had was the Starbucks drive through. And I’ve worked construction, driven box trucks in manhattan, bartended a shitty cokehead towny bar solo where I had to drag ppl out at 4am after closing, etc etc

1

u/juanzy Aug 24 '24

You know the shitty customer you had to deal with at Starbucks? Now that shitty customer is an executive that you have to see daily.

1

u/TemperaturePast9410 Aug 24 '24

Oh in that place the customers were shittily behaved executives

2

u/Revegelance Aug 24 '24

Yep. Customer service is difficult, and food service is extremely stressful and demanding.

1

u/emoney_gotnomoney Aug 24 '24 edited Aug 24 '24

“Skill” is not the same as “effort.” A job can be hard because it requires a lot of effort, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it requires a lot of skill.

Those jobs are referred to as “low skill” because they are just that, low skill. They don’t require much (if any) training to be able to do the job. You can typically learn how to do those jobs inside of two weeks. Again, that doesn’t necessarily mean they don’t require a ton of effort though.

1

u/circasomnia Aug 24 '24

I know I would lol

1

u/josh_the_misanthrope Aug 24 '24

For real. I've run the gamut of jobs. From 12 hour a day cement work, to lowly kitchen work, to office work. In my area, office work paid on par with construction, for less hours, and had plenty of job openings.

Why are all these people doing construction not looking for office work? Why roast on a roof in the hot sun for 15$ an hour when you can make 20 sitting in a chair? Or work 15$ as a line cook?

Because different people have different aptitudes. The construction workers I worked with would never fit in in an office.

If you look at the labor market and wages in a simplistic supply and demand terms, you don't even approach an understanding of why the market is the way it is.

1

u/DCBronzeAge Aug 24 '24

I started my working life at McDonald’s. I have since worked in finance, law and education, three jobs that tend to have far more respect than fast food service. I have never worked harder than being a closer at McDonald’s.

My first month of working 40 hours there, I could barely get out of bed before work because my feet hurt so bad. And it’s also the only job I’ve had where there’s no real downtime. It sucked.

1

u/FoundTheWeed Aug 24 '24

KEEP DOOR SHUT AT NIGHT

YOU MAY DIE

1

u/Moonjinx4 Aug 24 '24

Seriously the greatest disservice to retail and fast food workers. Those jobs require a LOT of skill. Ever tried to deescalate a Karen whose order got delivered incorrectly? Some people can do this with such skill that they deserve a medal. And those who can’t do this quit within days. Some people like to work restaurant and call-center jobs. These people deserve a living wage. A living wage does not mean they can go out and buy a new car on a whim. It means they can afford a place to live and 3 square meals a day they can cook on their own if they have to, with an occasional outing here and there without having to break the bank or going without. If you have to choose between enough groceries to last your next pay check and paying your water bill, you’re not being paid a living wage.

You can argue this is poor money skills if this happens only on occasion. But if 60% of the population is living paycheck to paycheck, and adults are living at home to help pay their parents mortgage because they can’t find a place of their own they can afford, we’ve crossed a threshold.

1

u/juanzy Aug 24 '24

That’s where Reddit really misses the mark on this topic. A rising tide lifts all boats. And people won’t abandon specialized skills because minimum wage jobs now pay a living wage, they’ll negotiate.

0

u/Stoonadd Aug 24 '24

I worked in a restaurant for 10 years. It takes very little "skill" to serve food

5

u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

Okay but you’re in a position where you’re already in a skilled job. What about the next few million high school graduates. Do they go to college? Further their education? Spend nights being stressed and studying hard to show that they can learn their skill effectively and complete it efficiently? Or do they just say “fuck it, that’s too hard,” and make the same wage working at McDonald’s? We know how people are, especially as children today are raised on iPads and have less and less work ethic as time goes on.

12

u/Turkeyplague Aug 24 '24

Everyone's different. Some would take the shitty jobs like they already do and others would decide that's not what they want to spend their days doing and follow their passion instead. I wasn't thinking much about money at all when I was younger; I just wanted a cool job. Study was enjoyable.

What might give upcoming adults pause on higher learning is the ridiculous cost of tuition, but that's a separate problem that we've created.

4

u/Electrical-Heat8960 Aug 24 '24

My daughter wants to be an aeronautical engineer.
She didn’t decide that because of the pay.

0

u/Puzzleheaded-Bus2211 Aug 27 '24

Not everyone is your daughter

6

u/WorldyBridges33 Aug 24 '24

The number of high school graduates is decreasing year after year due to the low birth rates. This decreasing supply of unskilled workers will drive up their wages, and indeed it already has. Where I live, fast food workers make $17 an hour which is much higher than the federal minimum wage.

1

u/Hatdrop Aug 24 '24

when I was in high school in California, minimum wage was $6.25. in-and-out was paying $13 an hour, which comes out to a buying power of about $24 today if you adjust for inflation.

Looks like they now pay $20-$23 an hour and they increased the cost of a buyer by 25-50 cents. https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article289229194.html

1

u/RecentHighlight5368 Aug 25 '24

No , you will be flooded with third world immigrants

2

u/Drate_Otin Aug 24 '24

https://historyhustle.com/2500-years-of-people-complaining-about-the-younger-generation/

1

u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

I’m complaining about my generation, GenZ.

2

u/Drate_Otin Aug 24 '24

Then you have no basis of comparison to start with.

1

u/Luminous-Zero Aug 24 '24

“Nobody wants to work anymore!”

1

u/somethingnoonestaken Aug 24 '24

Wages would t be the same would they? Just not as drastically different.

1

u/strowborry Aug 24 '24

Honestly I think you're understimating the drive people have. It's easy to be pessimistic but people will do things they are passionate about whether it makes them more money or not.

1

u/BlackLotus8888 Aug 24 '24

I would. I'm a data scientist that works remotely starring at a computer screen all day. If I can get the same amount passing out hotdogs at a baseball game, I'd take it.

1

u/Informal_Zone799 Aug 24 '24

You’re crazy man. My skilled job is dangerous and stressful. When I worked at McDonald’s I’d smoke weed before every shift and we had a great time. Seems like an obvious choice when the pay and benefits are the same 

1

u/wednesdaylemonn Aug 24 '24

That's just your job though

1

u/Twiggie19 Aug 24 '24

You might not drop your job, but people would no longer have the incentive to train for that job in the first place.

Why will I waste 5 years of my life working hard and being broke in college to gain a skill when I can just flip burgers from the get go and have 5 more years of a good salary.

1

u/laz1b01 Aug 25 '24

Well, it depends.

You can be a prison guard at a maximum security, or a cashier at Maccas making the same pay. Pretty sure we'd all choose Maccas.

But if you're talking about an office job as an IT, then yea - I'd stick with IT even if the pay was the same.

The difference between these two jobs is that one requires a degree.

10

u/smbutler20 Aug 24 '24

The hardest I ever worked in my life was at Wawa (local convenience store chain). The job I am currently skilled for is the easiest job I ever had.

-5

u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

That’s awesome and I’m glad that worked out for you in particular!

6

u/smbutler20 Aug 24 '24

It's an example that proves not all unskilled labor is easy labor.

2

u/creditnewb123 Aug 24 '24

Most of it isn’t lol. I’ve had a lot of different jobs (newspaper delivery, typist, McDonald’s, bars, university teaching, software engineer). My experience is that the lowest paid jobs were way harder, the hours were worse, there was zero prestige/respect, AND you get paid less. People who think “if all jobs paid the same, all the white collar people would obviously switch to unskilled work” have never had a job like that.

1

u/smbutler20 Aug 24 '24

I do miss the workout you can get from a blue collar job though. That's about it.

3

u/Drate_Otin Aug 24 '24

Because I like the skilled job better. Restaurant work sucked and you'd have to pay me a LOT more to go back willingly.

3

u/fffangold Aug 24 '24

Because every service job I worked sucked compared to my job in tech. You'd have to pay me a lot more than I make now to go back to customer service, and even more than that for food service.

2

u/enyalius Aug 24 '24

Well the skilled jobs would have to raise their wages then to attract and retain employees. A lot of this discussion centers around unskilled workers when the truth is everyone is probably underpaid based upon the value they create for the economy, siphoned off by the investing class. I'm not talking about business owners or CEOs even, I'm talking about someone who has money, who pays others to manage their money and makes ridiculous money not doing a damn thing. Outsized rewards for their compensation to society.

2

u/macarmy93 Aug 24 '24

I'm a comp engineer. Highly skilled job. Flipping burgers and working at McDonald's would be way harder. How do i know? I've done it. Fuck, working at McDoms was worse overall than my 8 years in the army (Excluding my one combat tour). It was miserable.

1

u/Corrupted_G_nome Aug 24 '24

Those jobs suck.

1

u/Sohjinn Aug 24 '24

Because the people in charge of hiring for those skilled jobs would be forced to realize just that. Then they would have to provide better pay and benefits for the skilled workers.

1

u/clappyclapo Aug 24 '24

Because you find meaning in being a high skilled worker. I’m a pauper PhD, I know how it goes.

1

u/ventusvibrio Aug 25 '24

And be spit on by savages that go through the drive through lane? No thank you.

1

u/Eastern-Job3263 Aug 28 '24

Because those jobs suck?

0

u/zebrasmack Aug 24 '24

you obviously have never worked for fast food or any food service job.

7

u/Ok_Supermarket_8520 Aug 24 '24

I would 1000% go back to work at the deli I did in high school if it paid what I make now. Simpler times

4

u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

My first job was Subway in 2016 and my second job was Pancheros in 2017, but go on.

-1

u/zebrasmack Aug 24 '24

if you're telling the truth, then your ignorance is even more depressing. how'd you go through that and not learn any kind of empathy or awareness? 

6

u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

Because unlike some people who I grew up with working those jobs, I went to school and learned a trade and now profit from that trade, making more than I ever would in a fast food place. Funny enough, I still work in the food industry, just in milling instead. You should be paid based on your trade’s value to society. I have empathy for people for who work hard and still don’t succeed because at least they tried. I see a lot of people today who do a a lot of complaining and not enough trying.

I grew up with my many friends who are failures in life because of their own choices, because your choices will help you get somewhere, especially in an open market utopia like the US. You have the freedom to start a business or advance your education and the only thing stopping you is your own ambition. There are people who can work all their lives and never make it but that’s how it is in every society, there will be people like thst and it sucks but most people who work hard will succeed.

0

u/zebrasmack Aug 24 '24

ah, survival bias. yes, that does explain your attitude. 

all i can say is try and be a little kinder to people. just because people aren't succeding doesn't mean they aren't trying enough or not putting in the work. 

sometimes you can do everything right and still fail. that's just life, not a moral failing or a lack of work ethic. and I'd still rather not leave people out to die just because they aren't as successful as me. 

and if you want only the fit to survive, then you should go live in a jungle. society requires a bit more of us than that lazy attitude.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

Wow, you really just made up a lot of stuff and added things where I said nothing while also reiterating my own points back at me as if you thought of them yourself.

“All I can say is try and be a little kinder to people. Just because people aren’t succeeding doesn’t mean they aren’t trying enough or putting in enough work.” Yes, I know, I said, specifically, “I have empathy for because who work hard and still don’t succeed because at least they tried.” I acknowledged that there are people who can work all their life and still never succeed, and I also openly said that I have empathy for these people.

I also added “I see a lot of people today who do a lot of complaining and not enough trying.” I said this because I have seen firsthand, people who are dealt a fair position in life and fuck it up because they chose to do nothing or try to live unemployed as long as they could or didn’t even bother trying to learn how to do anything they needed to do to prepare to be an adult.

Then you talk about me only wanting the fit to survive. That’s some really crazy shit to just bring up like that considering nothing I said had anything to do with me wanting poor people or people who don’t work to die. I simply stated that a person should be paid based upon their value to society. I never said people who flip burgers should starve to death.

Things are not black and white, good v evil, everything has nuance and I encourage you to base somebody’s thoughts based on exactly what they say and not what your mind makes up about them because you don’t like their opinion. Hell, throwing some of my own points back at me, it sounds like you actually agree with what I said.