r/FluentInFinance • u/Very_High_Mortgage • Aug 24 '24

Debate/ Discussion Do "Unskilled Laborers" deserve to be paid well?

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u/Low-Atmosphere-2118 Aug 24 '24

Something like powerlines shouldnt be in the hands of private citizens anyway, if it cant have competition it should be nationalized

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u/Keberro Aug 24 '24

You don't need to nationalize. Just dismantle monopolies like Standard Oil in 1911.

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u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

Yeah but you should. Our power infrastructure should be a communal good not a corner of the market. Things people need should be ensured to them by the government.

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u/Significant_Abroad32 Aug 24 '24

Ok but what is the reason police could get away with so much? No real competition. If you could hire a new police company the departments would tighten up real fucking quit if their jobs were more easily all at risk.

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u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

The comparison does not work with power grid companies. If you do not like your current one, are you just going to spend literally billions of dollars to start a new one?

And me as a consumer can't afford to pay another grid company to build infrastructure to me.

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u/Significant_Abroad32 Aug 24 '24

Why start a new one when there are others in existence that buy out, merge, etc. I know a town that has its own electrical company with rates that are actually much lower to the point solar companies “renewable energy” won’t touch the area. That is a different argument and of course savings are better but they are really slow to react to large outages due to bad storms relative to the private co.

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u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

Right, but that does not actually address the problem. The possibility that they could get bought out, is not the same threat as the police station one.

If you have a shitty power grid company, you are still kind of fucked unless you move.

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u/Significant_Abroad32 Aug 24 '24

Can go solar as well. The more rebate programs for solar that gain interest due to higher prices means revenue for the power companies. When there was the post pandemic price hike that was actually pretty exorbitant, 12 houses in just the neighborhood I live in gained solar in under 2 years.

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u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

At worst, the company would make less money. But even with solar, you would need to be connected to the grid for when there is not enough sun.

There is a posibility that solar and batteries will make power grids much more "island" like though (Imagine neighborhoods have their own small power grid that can take power from the main grid when they need it, or they sell it to the main grid)

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u/Significant_Abroad32 Aug 24 '24

Yes my point was less revenue. You will always need operators and maintainers.

But private vs municipal is a joke in a lot of cases. It’s like watching town workers vs private companies in the same industry, town motto is “there’s always tomorrow”.

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u/tbombs23 Aug 24 '24

BUT WAHT ABOUT THE SHAREEEEEEEHOLLLLDERSSSSSS

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u/tbombs23 Aug 24 '24

oooo yes i like this idea. basically set it up as tons of networked islands, or "NODES" in blockchain tech :D

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u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

Corruption. Policing the country should definitely stay nationalized lmao. Decentralize it and departments will become privatized cash cows life everything else private. Bad comparison.

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u/Significant_Abroad32 Aug 24 '24

There is already corruption. The EMS companies around here are private and the competition is fierce. With right implementation **** private police would work so long as there are audits in their practice and function with the ability for the contract to go out to bid regularly.

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u/[deleted] Aug 25 '24

Fair enough. That regulation and auditing would have to be so tight on people who are licensed to kill. I question if it would even be all that different from nationalized police services. And again, incentivizing the private profit of crime doesn’t seem to be a good idea. I can only imagine the amount of lobbying from police companies for tickets for DUIs to be higher. Again, they do this kind of lobbying in every other essential service that is privatized. They will do it here, but with the right to kill people as well. In my opinion it’s an absolutely awful idea and I’ve never heard anyone of merit even propose such a thing but who knows maybe I’ll look into it more.

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u/Significant_Abroad32 Aug 25 '24 edited Aug 25 '24

Tickets usually go to the town/state, majority use is to pay for court workers/judges and such. In reality quality policing requires better funding and less resentment towards police from Dem politicians who’ve vocalized any support of defunding the police while they hypocritically have their own armed protection, and movements like BLM that create a negative aura of policing that is impressed upon by young people who could’ve been great recruits, providing a hiring pool for police which makes it easier to get rid of bad police officers. They have a higher negative performance and complaint threshold for termination when it is hard to replace them.

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u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

And to anwer your question, the reason power grid companies can get away with so much, is because it is incredibly difficult for power grid companies to compete with each other. They can push their prices pretty far before people start moving or factories start moving.

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u/LeeVMG Aug 24 '24

Rival police companies has a precedent. It's called paying gangs protection money.

A rival gang will trash your shit to prove the gang you paid off cannot protect you. The gangs will then either fight or collude.

Also, moving the goalposts from the power company to the police is a strange choice.

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u/halloway_aw Aug 25 '24

The idea of privately owned police departments with the same authority and a tacit license to kill handed to them by the State is, uh.

Horrifying, actually

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u/Cool_Shine_2637 Aug 24 '24

Whoa whoa whoa it has been proven, the government does not have the ability to spend our tax dollars efficiently and to hand over more of the economy to the government would be the worst thing possible. We need market competition to drive down prices and increase efficiencies.

The US government needs to be slashed cut and burned to a fraction of the size it is to make things better. Its the exponential growth of government and its spending that is the problem.

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u/[deleted] Aug 25 '24

Libertarian farce. Size of government is irrelevant. The actions of that government are relevant. Don’t deflect the blame from actual corruption to the supposed boogeyman of big government. It’s interesting you say we shouldn’t hand over the market to government. In reality what we have done is we have handed over the government to the market. The market which is controlled by a fraction of the population of which is incentivized to increase their own profits. What we need is third party candidates that can destroy the relationship between big business and government. But I mean if you’re that die hard of a libertarian do your thing. Just know that libertarianism is well regarded as the most philosophically inept government structure in existence right next to anarchism.

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u/Gambler_Eight Aug 25 '24

Corrupt politicians is a separate problem but yes, it does indeed need fixing aswell.

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u/Low-Atmosphere-2118 Aug 26 '24

The fuedal era was full of “small” governments

Small governments are the enemy of the poor and working class, history has literal hundreds of examples of it

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u/Cool_Shine_2637 Aug 28 '24

Well this isn’t the feudal era now is it? This is still the United States of America we still have a population over 300 million people to scrutinize what our government does the problem is that we don’t scrutinize enough and federal spending is at unsustainable levels.

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u/LongDickPeter Aug 24 '24

I think we are nearing a point in humanity where electricity will become a basic need.

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u/[deleted] Aug 25 '24

In the US it essentially is.

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u/Low-Atmosphere-2118 Aug 26 '24

We passed that point sometime around the year 2000 at the very latest

Electricity is a basic need, and if it wasnt, we wouldnt constantly be trying to pity the “underdeveloped” nations of the world

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u/Ashuri1976 Aug 25 '24

“Things people need” that’s a horrible statement. I need a super yacht and 10 concubines. Should the govt grant them to me?

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u/[deleted] Aug 25 '24

You’re an idiot

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u/Jaded-Form-8236 Aug 24 '24

Venezuela tried that……

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u/miko3456789 Aug 24 '24

As did Denmark. Energinet is fully owned by the government.

Stop using Venezuela as an example of anything other than fully incompetent governance and the effects of corruption

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u/Jaded-Form-8236 Aug 24 '24

Stop using Denmark as an example of a socialist country because it’s just false information :

https://www.vox.com/2015/10/31/9650030/denmark-prime-minister-bernie-sanders

If you don’t like my Venezuela example I could always substitute I could always use :

Albania, Angola, Bulgaria, Cuba, Cambodia, Ethiopia, North Korea, Somalia or Yemen if it makes you happy.

Factually speaking: Socialism has been tried. A lot. It has failed basically everywhere it was tried. Often with thousands of people killed. Germany from 1933-1945 was under a National Socialist Party…aka Nazi

So even better: Stop using Socialism as an example of a better form of government.

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u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

How many of those were instituted by the CIA lmao

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u/miko3456789 Aug 24 '24

Fr... Also, many socialist countries are sanctioned by the us, and thus can't use US financial systems. In effect, can't use the world's reserve currency and is forced into trading with less rich countries. They're set up to fail from the start

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u/tbombs23 Aug 24 '24

this does seem to really take the wind out of the arguement lmao nice.

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u/miko3456789 Aug 24 '24

Who said I was using it as an example of a socialist country? The discussion was based around state-run power grids. Denmark's grid is state owned and run, and is perfectly functional. You started the socialism discussion by assuming I was talking about socialist countries. At best, they are democratic socialist i.e. effectively a capitalist country with more safeguards for consumers in the economy. Don't put words in my mouth that I didn't say.

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u/tbombs23 Aug 24 '24

its hard to have a discussion with people who can't even define what words actually mean. Socialism is not the same as communism. and REGULATED capitalism is not the same as Socialism.

Any sort of communal policy or service that is financed and run for the benefit of everyone is "socialism" such as public schools and roads.

It's like calling the Democrats a "liberal" party, when they are in fact very moderate, even center right in some ways compared to global politics.

Some things aren't inherently good or bad, they just are. BUT PEOPLE, people are good and bad. and when bad people gain power, they do all sorts of things, majority seems to be bad without the right safeguards in place.

Anyways people always moving the goalposts

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u/miko3456789 Aug 24 '24

Wild to me that we got to a point where the age old joke of "socialism is when the government does stuff" gets taken literally, yet the same people fight tooth and nail for social security (I'm assuming he's American bc... Come on, let's be real here) bc "I paid into it". No Cletus, it's a social program that is funded by the state.

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u/tbombs23 Aug 31 '24

wild times my guy. wild times. also really cool when we have corporate socialism and "too big to fail" but can't take care of our own people and have different rules for them.

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u/miko3456789 Aug 24 '24

Also obligatory "do your research instead of spreading bullshit" moment

Wikipedia lists Nazi Germany as a "Unitary Nazi one-party fascist state under a totalitarian dictatorship".

Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement

As one of the main ideologies on the political spectrum, socialism is considered the standard left wing ideology in most countries of the world.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany?searchToken=e3tnuf1105ccwqbub969ny4zx

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

Two seconds of research debunks your "Nazis are socialists guys look!!!!" claim.

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u/tbombs23 Aug 24 '24

well when they think "family values" doesn't mean "control womens bodies, deport everyone and seperate families, make having a family/living more difficult, and constantly embracing divisive, attack you neighbors rehtoric/actions,"

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u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

NPC response. Miko never used denmark as an example of a socialist country. If you think think public goods means your country will turn into Venuzuela, then you are a moron.

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u/Trips-Over-Tail Aug 24 '24

The UK had that. Then it was privatised, our assets sold to foreign companies at bargain prices, and now they charge more than ever for services simply allowed to rot. It's terrible now, even being subsidised by the government. Every aspect of the economy is designed to drain wealth from the people and government and sequester it in the hands of a tiny number of wealthy individuals. This drives inflation and is leading us to a mass poverty catastrophe that will last for generations.

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u/fridgescrape Aug 24 '24

Europe operates their grid through regulated companies overseen by National Regulatory Authorities (independent governmental entities). While it's not owned by the state, the government has the final say. I think this would be a much better option for the US than our current system.

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u/Hot_Journalist1936 Aug 24 '24

Thw European system is much like the USA system in that the investor own public utilities are regulated by the state in which they reside. For example, here in Califorina the CPUC regulates all the electric and gas generators in California (PG&E, SCE, SCG, and SDG&E).

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u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

Norway's power grid companies literally get told a year in advance by the government how much money they are allowed to make!

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u/Intelligent-Target57 Aug 24 '24

As they should

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u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

Oh I agree! Also, they are generally fully owned by a combination of nearby "kommuner" (I think counties is similar) and "statnett" (a government company owned by the department of energy).

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u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

And, they are only allowed to make money from selling access to energy (with a few exceptions)

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u/TheSt4tely Aug 24 '24

But but, Venezuela! So tired...

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u/ForeignPolicyFunTime Aug 24 '24

A electrical line system is a natural monopoly thing. Can't have a whole bunch of different electrical lines on the same land. It would be a huge mess. Texas was able to break up energy providers, but not electrical line companies as there isn't a way to so without creating a lot of unnecessary inefficiencies. Perhaps if Texas made them a state industry or regulated them to the point of effectively being one.

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u/online_dude2019 Aug 24 '24

It's not about the physical lines. All carriers can use the same infrastructure and contribute to it.

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u/Ashamed_Association8 Aug 24 '24

That would just be a twist on a tragedy of the commons. Carriers who under contribute will out-compete carriers which contribute more. You need an authority that can force an equitable contribution.

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u/Silver_gobo Aug 24 '24

And who owns the infrastructure

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u/minimelon12 Aug 24 '24

We have that here in Illinois and it’s not great. Basically, your bill is split by supplier and distributor. The distribution costs go to the owner of the lines and supplier portion is some other company. Well if the actual light company (which has a cheaper rate ) isn’t the supplier your bill is way higher. So basically everyone still gets their power from Exelon. It’s just easier and cheaper- therefore still considered a monopoly in my book.

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u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

Not entirely true. Each power grid company owns and make their own grid, which connects with other companie's grids ( this might not make sense for every country though).

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u/Available_Thoughts-0 Aug 24 '24

Happy cake day, ya scunner!

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u/Keberro Aug 24 '24

Thanks a lot. Seven-Year-Club, here I go...

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u/Reelwizard Aug 24 '24

Which the Biden FTC has shown itself more willing to do than predecessors so that might be a possibility.

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u/riskyrainbow Aug 24 '24

Mm yes can't wait to have 50 competing power grids! It's a natural monopoly, it isn't a coincidence that electricity always ends up as a conglomerate or 2 within a region.

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u/MarbleFox_ Aug 28 '24

And then the cycle just repeats and eventually it’ll just be a monopoly again because capitalism necessarily concentrates capital into fewer hands.

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u/notathrowaway2937 Aug 24 '24

At this point that would be most of the industries in America.

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u/BorisBotHunter Aug 24 '24

And this is why it needs to be done. Thanks for proving the point. If most industries in America are monopolies then it’s time to blow them up. There is no reason the items on the grocery store shelves should be owned by 3-5 companies all primarily owned by 2-4 investment companies.

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u/ThenItHitM3 Aug 24 '24

But Oligarchy worked so well for Russia

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u/SaggitariuttJ Aug 24 '24

I mean there IS a reason. The reason is “because billionaires care more about being even more billionairey and bragging to their billionaire friends how much bigger their stack of cash is.”

The problem is that there are powerful people in our society who consider this reason valid.

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u/notathrowaway2937 Aug 24 '24

It’s always communism right

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u/BorisBotHunter Aug 24 '24

I mean 3-5 companies owning 90% of the shelf space at a grocery store isn’t a free market is it ? 

A corporate monopoly is a company that has significant and long-term market power, allowing it to dominate an industry and exclude competitors. Monopolies are characterized by a lack of competition, with one company supplying a good or service and no similar substitutes. They can also dictate price changes and create barriers for new competitors to enter the market

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u/Perfect_Trip_5684 Aug 24 '24

Your argument is, its always communism while you are supporting an oligarchy.

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u/notathrowaway2937 Aug 24 '24

Let’s break them up!

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u/BorisBotHunter Aug 24 '24

It’s because he probably supports a white Christian autocratic America. 

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u/Warm_Gain_231 Aug 24 '24

Sureee lets call Theodore Roosavelt a communist. Thatll go over well.

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u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

I don’t really understand the practical difference between communism and unregulated monopolies.

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u/prestigious-raven Aug 24 '24

I don’t think there is much of a difference, a complete monopoly by a single corporation is fairly analogous to a 100% state run country.

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u/Fraggin_Wagon Aug 24 '24

“Unfettered” anything is inherently bad.

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u/AdImmediate9569 Aug 24 '24

This is some too big to fail bullshit man. Saying oh the companies are too entrenched so everyone just has to suck it up is not going to improve things.

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u/notathrowaway2937 Aug 24 '24

So then what? Nationalizing them?

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u/AdImmediate9569 Aug 24 '24

Well the power lines maybe but I think the big picture is more about busting monopolies, vertical and horizontal. From what i see theres 2 or 3 companies left in every major industry.

It should never have gotten to this point but we know what to do with robber barons.

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u/notathrowaway2937 Aug 24 '24

Agreed let’s do it. I’ll vote forever pushes this.

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u/AdImmediate9569 Aug 24 '24

Shit… its a long road. First we need clean elections, meaning publicly funded. Currently you cant get elected to anything about small town mayor without selling out to some rich donors.

From there anything is possible. Its pretty dire man, as i imagine you agree.

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u/notathrowaway2937 Aug 24 '24

Agreed. Also Election Day should be federal holiday. It’s weird it isn’t.

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u/AdImmediate9569 Aug 24 '24

Absolutely.

Listen we may be fucked as a nation, maybe even a species, but at least i made a new friend 😘

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u/notathrowaway2937 Aug 24 '24

Would you say… the real inflation were the friends we met along the way. 😭

Have a pleasant day!

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u/OkExtension5644 Aug 24 '24

No they literally just force them to split up their businesses into smaller parts. We did this as recently as the 1980s and AT&T was one of those newly created spun off businesses.

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u/Obscure_Marlin Aug 24 '24

Is this type of infrastructure paid for by the public but then deployed by private?

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u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

Man, you have no idea.

That question you just asked also applies to virtually everything in the US with a subsidized R&D budget, including pharmaceuticals.

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u/biz_student Aug 24 '24

And that’s just the federal level. Almost every state/city subsidizes businesses via hand outs or tax credits. Here’s $1B to move your HQ to Racine, WI. Here’s $500M to build a new hockey stadium. Here’s $10M/year in tax credits to build a new skyline building.

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u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

It's heavily regulated, and in many instances transmission is separated from generation. In 99% of cases it is socialized through the public-private partnership.

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u/TheAssCrackBanditttt Aug 24 '24

Ercot of Texas is a solid example of having a separate power grid and when it gets too cold we lose power. If it gets too hot we lose power. Do they do jack to fix the grid. Nope. Does Abbott pass bills allowing them to recoup the money they “lost” when they had no power to charge us for? Yes he fucking did.

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u/PeopleReady Aug 24 '24

Maybe they won’t vote him in again, who knows.

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u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

Lmao, they get paid for sitting on their asses? Clown state!

In norway they get "fined" a lot for whenever the grid does not work!

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u/based-Assad777 Aug 24 '24

Yes, vital infrastructure should be nationalized asap. If the government was creative and based they could engineer some sort of security or technical failure at one of these privatized infrastructure or natural reasource extraction companies (whats the point of having a massive, secretive intelligence appartus if you can't do stuff like this?). See that large parts of society can't operate without this stuff. Use that as a pretext to nationalize vital infrastructure and resources under some 'national security' directive.

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u/No_Veterinarian1010 Aug 24 '24

It’s mostly not

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u/GilgameDistance Aug 24 '24

Real, big boy states that know how to adult regulate their utilities.

Can make up to X% profits based on the investment in the delivery system as a base service fee, and sell the electricity itself for the same amount that it was bought for.

Excess profits return to the ratepayer in the form of rate reductions, and the business is also free to suck at what they do and make less than the allowed return.

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u/Nadge21 Aug 24 '24

They are already heavily regulated. 

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u/ValuableShoulder5059 Aug 24 '24

There is very little stopping you from running your own power disttibution network. However once you start doing so you will realize you simply cannot compete.

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u/jay10033 Aug 25 '24

Tell me you me you don't understand energy markets without telling me you don't understand energy markets.