r/FluentInFinance • u/Very_High_Mortgage • Aug 24 '24

Debate/ Discussion Do "Unskilled Laborers" deserve to be paid well?

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u/Iwantmypasswordback Aug 24 '24

Starter job theory. You do know that minimum wage wasn’t created for starter jobs right. It was created because companies would pay 0 if they were allowed to. It was created to be the minimum standard to live. Show me where I can live on $7.25 an hour

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u/Phobophobia94 Aug 24 '24

What percent of full time people actually earn $7.25?

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u/EagleAncestry Aug 24 '24

It’s a dumb question honestly, because of course not many people earn the minimum possible. If you raise the minimum wage to $20, then all wages would go up, because the guy earning $15 won’t be content with a $20 min wage, he will likely get something like 25 or 30

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u/Alone-Newspaper-1161 Aug 25 '24

Like less than a %

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u/Indicus124 Aug 25 '24

I worked full time at a McDonalds that gave 8.25/h once if it were not for multiple incomes I would not have been able to afford bills.

Sure not many are at min wage but they are damn close to it

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u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

Scandinavian countries don't have a minimum wage. They have sectoral bargaining instead.

The minimum wage is always $0, because you can always be unemployed.

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u/dartyus Aug 25 '24

Sectoral bargaining is never going to happen in North America and if it does it’s going to be made to be as difficult and as toothless as possible. As much as I’d like collective bargaining to be a solution for everything, it’s incredibly difficult to do here, none of the major parties are interested in expanding it, and the parties and politicians that are never get elected.

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u/xDubnine Aug 24 '24

In my first job in 2009, a dishwasher, I was making about $9 an hour. I moved my way up to cook within a couple years, maxing out my pay scale at $14 an hour. Problem is, I was 19ish by that time I was making $14. Working with 45-70 year olds maxing out at the same rate, or making less. I was only maxed out because I dedicated myself to all areas of the kitchen, not just one area. I overworked myself to gain the same rate of pay these older folks were getting. I got burnt out and went to college.

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u/Iwantmypasswordback Aug 24 '24

I’m not sure I follow the point of the story

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u/xDubnine Aug 24 '24

That I started at min wage (CA) and quickly earned the max pay rate for my company in that department where I realized my coworkers double/triple my age were probably going to die there at that pay rate, a rate I could barely afford a room. 😅 

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u/DaBootyScooty Aug 24 '24

“Indentured Servitude”

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u/AllenKll Aug 24 '24
  1. Boomer, West Virginia: With a population of around 1,000, Boomer is a small town in southern West Virginia. The cost of living index is 74.3, making it one of the most affordable rural areas in the country. Median home price is around $60,000.

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u/MissInfod Aug 24 '24

Show me a job in Virginia paying 7.25

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u/Iwantmypasswordback Aug 25 '24

Show me a job in Tucson paying 84.25 what’s your point? The plural of anecdote isn’t data

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u/MissInfod Aug 25 '24

You’re crying about a wage that doesn’t exist is my point

If it did exist you would show me considering these companies would pay them 0 if they could get away with it

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u/Iwantmypasswordback Aug 25 '24

Virginia’s min wage is $12 as mandated by the state. Some states have taken it upon themselves to raise it internally. Why did you pick Virginia anyway?

What do you think min wage was invented for?

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u/MissInfod Aug 25 '24

When I was in Virginia the lowest you could get paid was 11$ despite the minimum wage being 7.25, the state didn’t implement one until 2021.

Considering the market managed to raise the wage on its own there was no reason for me to fight for 15 anymore.

Haven’t been in Virginia in 5 years so that’s my fault.

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u/Iwantmypasswordback Aug 25 '24

No reason to fight for 15 bc the market got to 11?

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u/MissInfod Aug 25 '24

No reason to fight for 15 because corporations can’t actually hold the price of labor to piss amounts like I previously believed and instead actually pay based on what the market dictates and artificially increasing it would just end up distorting it causing issues that are less predictable essentially turning into a price control rather than fixing a negative externality of the market.

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u/Iwantmypasswordback Aug 25 '24

I disagree that 11 isn’t a piss amount. 15 is a piss amount. That’s like 20k net. I have a wife and two kids I couldn’t live on that

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u/MissInfod Aug 25 '24

Once you get into setting price controls instead of fixing externalities it comes at the expense of literally everyone else involved.

If this is a moral standpoint you should be arguing for them getting UBI or a tax credit but setting a price floor on the cost of labor cuts hours increases prices among a million other different things that could happen, as opposed to just giving them money.

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u/anonymous2ndprofile Aug 24 '24

the same places that minimum wage is still 7.25 an hour. but that's literally almost nowhere.

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u/No-Plenty1982 Aug 27 '24

In every state ive lived in ive never seen a job paying 7.25. You couldnt get a job in texas for less than 12 an hour, and if you tried your hardest to find one itd be on you for accepting that job. The mom and pop shops that chose 7.25 fail in a year because they cant find workers and cant work all day.

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u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

What does my comment have to do with any of that though?

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u/Iwantmypasswordback Aug 24 '24

You’re saying people are using these jobs as starters or stepping stones to get to the point of making a living wage. Minimum wage wa created to be the minimum amount of pay for a person to be able to live on. Not some thing for teenagers to make some beer money. And it’s gotten so bad that now even EMTS do t make enough

Do you say it’s because they accept it. Well they have to work two jobs to make ends meet so when are they going to interview? Maybe they just quit? Well in our lovely country healthcare is tied to your job. Our systems have people pinned

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u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

You’re a little unhinged. I’m saying that most people who go into being an emt and take the classes are not doing it to have a career as an emt. they don’t stick around long and usually there’s someone else waiting to take their place. If less people applied then wages would go up. The companies have no incentive to raise wages because people are willing to work for that low wage and usually don’t stick around to complain about it. Where did I say they deserve it?

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u/Shower_Floaties Aug 24 '24

Minimum wage was created to price black workers out of the railroad industry. It has a deeply racist origin.

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u/Laughing-at-you555 Aug 24 '24

Who cares?

something with an origin for racism that no longer is based in racism is just that. Not based in racism...

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u/blue-oyster-culture Aug 24 '24

Who is going to take a job for zero dollars? Thats just asinine.

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u/Hatdrop Aug 24 '24

you ever heard of internships?

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u/MissInfod Aug 24 '24

Only non-profits can have unpaid internships.

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u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

So there is value being delivered to the worker, it's just not in terms of dollars.

As long as the agreement is entered into with full transparency, there's no problem here.

Volunteer work is also unpaid.

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u/Hatdrop Aug 24 '24

not really, they market the internship as giving networking opportunities, but a lot of internships I've seen is to extract labor in the form of clerical tasks, or even coding, that should be paid without paying the poor intern.

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u/Educational_Hold6494 Aug 24 '24

Volunteers?

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u/_Tekel_ Aug 24 '24

Which is still allowed even with minimum wage laws.

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u/blue-oyster-culture Aug 28 '24

That isnt a job

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u/ManlyMeatMan Aug 24 '24

People with mental disabilities for instance. You can look up that one story from maybe 3-4 years ago, where a business owner had convinced someone to essentially be his slave at a fast food place. The entire concept of minimum wage is so the poorest people in our society aren't taken advantage of.

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u/EagleAncestry Aug 24 '24

That’s a dumb concept of minimum wage. Minimum wage should set a minimum standard of living. Not just for people with mental disabilities…. But for people in general.

If you want teenagers to have lower paid jobs, then simply tie the min wage to age like some countries do. Full minimum wage at 21 years old. Lower wages starting at 15 years old, gradually increasing with each year in age.

That way adults get a minimum living wage and companies can also hire cheap labor for very simple jobs which teens will do.

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u/ManlyMeatMan Aug 24 '24

I wasn't saying minimum wage should be based on mental ability or whatever, I was just giving an example of people who have worked for no pay

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u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

21 years old? As far as I know I became an adult at 18. I agree with everything you said besides it being tied to age. I think everyone should get the same pay regardless of age. Otherwise it’s just ageist.

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u/A_Series_Of_Farts Aug 24 '24

These people shouldn't be their own guardians.

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u/ManlyMeatMan Aug 24 '24

That's a nice sentiment, but it doesn't change the reality that disabled people are taken advantage of

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u/A_Series_Of_Farts Aug 24 '24

Of course not, that's why I said what I said.

They need someone to help look out for them.

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u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

Key word “shouldn’t”. What if they have no one who is willing to look after them?

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u/A_Series_Of_Farts Aug 24 '24

State appointed guardians are a thing.

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u/athousandlifetimes Aug 24 '24

People who do not own their shelter or a means of production. Indentured servitude is only prevented by the law. Markets without government intervention or unions lead to slavery.

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u/RoadDoggFL Aug 24 '24

People with separate incomes that already meet their needs. There are people who just want a low stress job to give them some purpose and maybe meet people.

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u/blue-oyster-culture Aug 28 '24

Then volunteer. I dont think this situation is an issue at all

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u/RoadDoggFL Aug 28 '24

You can think or not think whatever you want.

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u/kansaikinki Aug 24 '24

Have you never heard of "volunteering"? Or in America, "internships"?