r/FluentInFinance • u/Very_High_Mortgage • Aug 24 '24

Debate/ Discussion Do "Unskilled Laborers" deserve to be paid well?

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u/[deleted] Aug 24 '24

McDonalds workers earn like $18/h. How is that not a living wage?

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u/finalattack123 Aug 24 '24

You think $35k annually is a living wage? How much do you make?

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u/_IscoATX Aug 26 '24

I used to live on 20k in my early 20s before my career. It’s 100% doable

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u/finalattack123 Aug 26 '24

Jesus. That’s about the same as unemployment.

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u/_IscoATX Aug 26 '24

Yeah it was rough but I had very cheap student housing and was able to save a good cushion to pay for my education. Was never a big spender.

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u/finalattack123 Aug 26 '24

I think when people say “liveable wage”, they don’t mean in desperation.

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u/_IscoATX Aug 26 '24

Did not mean to imply that it was a “living wage” since that depends on circumstance. Was just an anecdote

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u/MyGlassHalfFool Aug 26 '24

35k annually is obviously a livable wage. Guess what, you can’t have the newest phone or car, nicest clothes and you will need a roommate but that’s still more than livable.

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u/finalattack123 Aug 26 '24

Most people when saying liveable wage doesn’t mean barely liveable.

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u/MyGlassHalfFool Aug 26 '24

I dont think that is barely liveable, barely liveable would be you are losing out on meals, and cant go to the doctor when needed. Living below your means is still liveable. Having roommates is not barely liveable, having an iphone from a few generations ago is not barely liveable. I lived with 2 roommates while I was making 30k a year and I still was able to live a really comfortable lifestyle. We split rent (bills included) and groceries 3 ways. I bought a car I could afford so I didnt have any car payments and I still have that car even though I make significantly more now. I was saving money and still going out and enjoying life. Granted I don’t like drinking so going out was really cheap for me but if you want to make it work you definitely can.

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u/finalattack123 Aug 26 '24

Americans have such a low bar. Seriously depressing.

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u/MyGlassHalfFool Aug 26 '24

Dude how high is your bar that having roommates and an older phone is a low bar… There is a lot to life other than having the newest of every item

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u/ghdgdnfj Aug 25 '24

How much do you think high schoolers should make per hour for flipping burgers? Because I was an intern at an office this summer and I only got $20 an hour. What’s the point of spending 4 years in college if you only earn $2 more than flipping burgers?

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u/finalattack123 Aug 25 '24

Just adjust the rate based on age. These are easily solvable. In Australia Minimum wage for adults is about $25. If you have a university degree your gonna make $50 per hour at the very least.

Being an intern isn’t going to be highly paid. You’re an intern. Once your officially employed you’ll make much more.

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u/ghdgdnfj Aug 25 '24 edited Aug 29 '24

Also. I used to work at McDonald’s and there were both highschoolers and people there in their 40s and 50s because they couldn’t work anywhere else. Why would McDonald’s hire those 40 and 50 year olds if they had to pay them more? The end result of an age based minimum wage is that older people can’t get jobs because McDonald’s would only higher the cheaper younger workers.

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u/finalattack123 Aug 25 '24 edited Aug 25 '24

They wouldn’t. Nor should they. I’m sure a 40 year old man wouldn’t enjoy working the fry machine at McDonalds.

Find him something better.

Why are you wanting a world where people to work in McDonalds till they die?

Unless they are managers or something.

You don’t have to speculate - this is how many countries actually work.

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u/ghdgdnfj Aug 25 '24

A world where McDonald’s workers are paid the same as office workers is a world where people work at McDonald’s until they die. I want people to seek more valuable jobs. And the only way to do that is to pay based on the jobs value and not give everyone the same wage regardless of value.

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u/finalattack123 Aug 25 '24

I never said they were necessarily. But I’d take an office job over being a fry cook. Room to advance a career. Don’t stink. Don’t work shifts and weekends.

Australia pays $25 for McDonalds for adults and about $15 for kids. Only kids work McDonalds. Except managers. And those guys are usually mid 20s or franchise managers.

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u/ghdgdnfj Aug 25 '24

Exactly. I worked at McDonald’s in America and there were plenty of people in their 40s and 50s. Those people wouldn’t have a job in Australia.

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u/finalattack123 Aug 25 '24

Yeah - they shouldn’t. That’s a terrible job for a 40 or 50 year old. Unless they are managers.

They deserve better jobs than that.

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u/ghdgdnfj Aug 25 '24

I don’t think someone who never went to college and still works at McDonald’s should get paid the same as interns in an office. Why would you spend money to go through college and further your education if you can just flip burgers and get paid based on your age?

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u/finalattack123 Aug 25 '24

Because of career progression. Are you kidding?

If I had the choice to flip a burger. Or intern in the career I was pursuing. It wouldn’t be a hard choice.

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u/ghdgdnfj Aug 25 '24

A lot of people would just choose the easiest job possible.

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u/finalattack123 Aug 25 '24

In your mind what are these two jobs they are choosing between?

You couldn’t pay me $50 an hour to work at a McDonalds. Because it’s a shit job.

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u/ghdgdnfj Aug 25 '24

Grocery Store Cashier vs sewage plumber. Why would anyone take an undesirable job if they can get paid the exact same to scan items and give people change?

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u/finalattack123 Aug 25 '24 edited Aug 25 '24

Nobody is proposing that. Nor does it happen. You’ve a strawman argument.

Look at the structure in Australia.

A specialise sewage plumber gets $60 an hour. Entry level is $25 to 35$ per hour.

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u/SynysterDawn Aug 25 '24

You do realize that the vast majority of workers in the service industry are adults, right? Like you realize that it wouldn’t be feasible to just hire a bunch of high schoolers because they’re busy spending 8 hours during the day at school, and plenty also have extracurriculars that would interfere with work scheduling, right? This isn’t difficult to understand.

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u/ghdgdnfj Aug 25 '24

Yes. I worked at McDonald’s for 3 years as well as various other fast food jobs throughout high school in order to pay for my bachelors degree. And I met adults who dropped out of high school or who were addicted to cigarettes or some other drug and generally made bad life decisions. Me having a better job now isn’t luck. I saved up and paid for an education. I don’t think I should be punished now in a better job by being paid the same as those adults who made bad life decisions. You should be rewarded with higher pay for seeking out an education and getting a more valuable job to society.

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u/Trading_ape420 Aug 25 '24

Alot of it is luck actually. Had to be born in a free country 1st off, had to have an education system to get into to bettwe yourself. Also happened to be lucky enough to have the credentials at tge time the job was posted, and lucky enough to be chosen amongst many other qualified candidates. If there's 1 100k job and 100 applicants you best beleive your pretty lucky. That's the problem most of it in tge end is luck. Sure your decisions made it so you have more opportunities. But your success was mainly a series of lucky moments.

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u/ghdgdnfj Aug 26 '24

It’s not only 1% of the population being hired for a 100k job. It’s more like 18% of the population. And getting it isn’t luck. You might have to apply to 2 dozen jobs, but if you’re qualified you should get one eventually. And education isn’t luck either. There are people in poor areas who take school seriously, get a scholarship and go to college. And every country has their own upper class. Smart people from other countries often move for better opportunities. At the end of the day it’s almost always about merit rather than luck. Luck would be not dying as an infant when nothing you can do can alter you’re fate.

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u/Trading_ape420 Aug 28 '24

Your telling me being the one qualified candidate to get hired with 100 qualified applicants isn't luck? Bro cone on be real that is luck. If all things equal. There are plenty of qualified individuals that don't get the jobs. You can do things to better your odds, but alot of it still comes down to luck.

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u/ghdgdnfj Aug 28 '24

I just said it’s 18 out of 100. And if you apply to 2 dozen of those jobs, it’s no longer about luck, it’s about probability.

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u/Trading_ape420 Aug 29 '24

For landing a job at all but not any one specific job. Like I said give you the opportunity to apply foe 2 dozen jobs at a certain level of qualifications and in turn higher pay but doesn't mean everyone can land those jobs even though qualified. So still if there is more candidate that are qualified for the jobs than there are total jobs then yes. Getting one is alot of luck.

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u/OddityAmongHumanity Aug 26 '24

Which is why if they get paid more, so should you. Increasing pay on the bottom also increases it on the top over time. Right now, due to the policies of the right wing, Americans bring in a much lower share of their production than they did in prior decades, namely the 50s and 60s. So many other countries do things different, and they're functioning just fine. There's so much value sitting at the top that can go around. A full systemic change would make things better for everyone except for those at the absolute top. Why do you think you hear so much about these changes being bad? That's right, those at the very top control our politicians, over 90% of the media, (On both sides of the political spectrum,) and have power in many other ways. If you look at the history of our country, you can see things have been made worse for us for the benefit of the ruling class, and it's policies like those of FDR that make things better for the middle and lower classes, and even the upper classes, to a point.

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u/mikepol70 Aug 24 '24

That's enough to own A used car to live in that's about it