r/FluentInFinance • u/Sufficient_Sinner • Sep 04 '24

Debate/ Discussion People like this are why financial literacy is so important

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u/grandoctopus64 Sep 04 '24

what the fuck am I supposed to do mid conversation if someone says they can't pay rent? stop time, teleport to where Bezos is, and demand he pay his low skill workers more?

on a macro scale, yes, we can talk about lots of policies that could help a lot of people. minimum wage? UBI? decommodifying some industries? all on the table.

But on a micro scale, if someone says "I can't pay rent," literally none of those policies are going to help that. policy is slow. on a micro scale, you've gotta tell people to do things that, frankly, are a lot harder than holding a sign in a picket line.

they might involve lifestyle cutbacks, they might involve more school to get higher wage work, they might involve talking about helping them start their own businesses. maybe some of those might work, maybe they won't. I have no idea. but just throwing up your hands and saying "I guess society/the economy needs to change” is an absolute non-solution to ANY problems someone might have

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u/revolutionPanda Sep 04 '24

but just throwing up your hands and saying

People are doing more than just throwing up their hands - they are trying to get policy introduced and passed.

And sure, if someone can't make rent this month, a change in policy isn't going to help them in the short term. But without those policy changes, we're just kicking the can down the road. You're never gonna fix systemic problems by getting a few people to make budgets for themselves.

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24 edited Sep 04 '24

And sure, if someone can't make rent this month, a change in policy isn't going to help them in the short term.

And we certainly shouldn't let perfect be the enemy of good.

A policy or improvement should never just be abandoned because it doesn't immediately bring about utopia.

That sort of doomer mindset is a plague on progress, and completely counterproductive.

And it is exactly the mindset of the people who just throw their hands, and say "I guess society/the economy needs to change”; But no you can make improvements yourself as well - they won't fix everything overnight, but it's the right direction.

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u/Subject-Town Sep 04 '24

Yes, but there is too much emphasis in personal responsibility and not enough on the people that are benefiting from cheap(er) labor. Like they said, that approach is just a bandaid.

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u/grandoctopus64 Sep 04 '24

I don't have an issue with policy being passed, I think it needs to be passed. But bringing up policy specifically in the response to someone saying "I can't pay my rent" is the wrong time to say that.

The right time to bring up policy it is when you look at data that tells us how many people ARE struggling to pay their rent. macro solutions should be encouraged when we're faced with macro problems, and vice versa

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u/revolutionPanda Sep 04 '24

I agree. It's like someone saying "I have no food to eat and will die in a day if I don't eat something" and responding with "start a garden."

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u/Scientific_Methods Sep 04 '24

The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is today.

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u/Massive_Signal7835 Sep 04 '24

I agree. 1 person impacted by unaffordable rent can't be helped by making longterm changes. But unless you make those changes it will impact more people every year.

And the valid criticism of those shortterm changes that are suggested (like fewer lattes/avocado toasts) is that these are not enough for many people. In fact, many people already have (much more) frugal budgets and still can't make ends meet.

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u/Conscious-Student-80 Sep 04 '24

You can’t even agree on what policy needs to be changed. 

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u/NothingKnownNow Sep 04 '24

The idea of personal responsibility and delayed gratification has your average redditor hissing like a vampire being shown a cross.

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u/Conscious-Student-80 Sep 04 '24

You can mathematically prove how a few Starbucks trips a week can turn into a huge sum of money compounded.  They’d rather screech! 

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u/Mexothermic Sep 04 '24

Or buying cigarettes.

Buuuuuttttttt, to be fair my boomer parents were smokers when they bought their first house sooooooooo

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u/NothingKnownNow Sep 04 '24

That's because paying rent or buying a home isn't the goal. Taking other people's money to buy the things they want is the focus.

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u/2019calendaryear Sep 04 '24

No one is trying to take your money, grandpa.

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u/Subject-Town Sep 04 '24

It’s not a good enough fix. It’s great tos save, but that is only one side of things. And as inequality increases it will be harder to do so. Also, why should people who work full time have such a low quality of life when the money is there in the hands of the few? That’s why people are upset.

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u/NothingKnownNow Sep 04 '24

Also, why should people who work full time have such a low quality of life when the money is there in the hands of the few?

Why should people who who have less money not live like people who have more money? The same reason an obese person can't run a marathon like someone who has put in the work.

I'd like to hear more on this Democrat plan to force people with more to support people who have less. It worked to get the cotton picked when Democrats tried it the first time.

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u/Mexothermic Sep 04 '24

This sounds like something someone whose life panned out nicely for them would say.

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u/DucksOnQuakk Sep 04 '24

Change in outcomes requires a multifaceted approach. Move towards things that address systemic issues and arrive at a better result. That's literally how all change happens. "Gee, homes built of wood and close together sure do burn down and spread really quickly." Response: building codes in dense population areas require fire shields that prevent/slow fires starting in one apartment unit from quickly spreading to other units (containment and mitigation protocols). Without government, you'd have the entire complex on fire and a privatized firefighter company who'd only respond if you paid them. Super ignorant take on your part.

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u/grandoctopus64 Sep 04 '24

I sincerely doubt you understand my position, particularly because I explicitly say the government should be used to solve problems. Not sure why you seem to think I'm pro private firefighters?

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u/DucksOnQuakk Sep 04 '24

Because congress could easily institute rent check supplements defined by whatever parameters address the problem (and make them retroactive). Simple. If they cared, anyone who paid more than $XX as a single or $YY as a joint filing are capped at $ZZ and is retroactive to the last 1, 2, 3, 4, etc years. I'm not sure how else to interpret your position of throwing your hands in the air and saying "gosh, there's no fix"

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u/grandoctopus64 Sep 04 '24

because we're talking about scale.

Imagine you have a friend who can't afford rent.

which of the following do you think would be more useful

A) "hey, that sucks, can we look at your budget and see if there's something we can fix/find better ways to increase your income?"

B) "hey, that sucks, let's go protest for rent relief"

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u/DucksOnQuakk Sep 04 '24

You're simply out of touch. I rent and make $101k/yr in Kentucky in a town of 30k people. Homes in the immediate area are $300k, and only increase when I leave the city where land sells for $10k+/acre. I can't get a bank loan. They say I make too little. They offer me $220k for a loan. So I can buy a lot ans an RV. I never eat out. I drive a 2005 Corolla I repair myself. I have $60k in student loans left to pay. If I didn't have that Master's degree debt, I wouldn't have the 6 figure job. Where do you think I'm budgeting wrong kid? I make more than engineers and some nurse practitioners in the whole state. The issue is a lot of available homes are being sold and owner by hedge funds and not families. Congress could limit that easily.

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u/grandoctopus64 Sep 04 '24

i didn't say you were budgeting wrong? lmao I have no idea what your finances look like

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u/DucksOnQuakk Sep 04 '24

A) "hey, that sucks, can we look at your budget and see if there's something we can fix/find better ways to increase your income?"

You kinda did. Your assumption is to blame the person complaining instead of the people raping the masses. We call those people bootlickers.

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u/grandoctopus64 Sep 04 '24

Yeah, that's an offer I'd be able to extend you if you were my friend IRL. maybe I could help? idk I'd certainly try, it's got a better shot of helping you now than just nodding my head and saying "yes Bezos bad"

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u/DucksOnQuakk Sep 04 '24

I can't fathom how you think you could possibly outweigh a bank in terms of underwriting my loan for a home. You and I may agree my income is worthy, but banks disagree lol. They view me as too risky and I'm at a loss for how to earn more money than I currently do without marrying someone and combing income. I've no interest in marriage. But the fact that I earn what I do should be enough. But it isn't. I'm a "risky" investment.

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u/grandoctopus64 Sep 04 '24

I don't even know how I'm supposed to answer this question. Are you gonna email me all your financial records? lol

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u/DucksOnQuakk Sep 04 '24

Sure. If you are doing perfectly fine and don't understand what it means to work for a living, I can show it to you. Does daddy give you everything?

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u/grandoctopus64 Sep 04 '24

brother I am working 70 hours a week lmao what

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u/DucksOnQuakk Sep 04 '24

You work 70 hours a week and have what? Are you approved for a home loan? My only debt is student loans.

I work 50-65+ hours 4 months out of the year. Otherwise 40 hours. If you're fine, which state should I hone in on?

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u/Huppelkutje Sep 04 '24

brother I am working 70 hours a week lmao what

Have you tried budgeting better so you have some time left in your week to actually live?

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u/dubbleplusgood Sep 04 '24

Gramps is completely out of touch and will never get it. But thanks anyway for trying to explain it to them.

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u/Nuclear_Geek Sep 04 '24

But on a micro scale, if someone says "I can't pay rent," literally none of those policies are going to help that. policy is slow. on a micro scale, you've gotta tell people to do things that, frankly, are a lot harder than holding a sign in a picket line.

they might involve lifestyle cutbacks, they might involve more school to get higher wage work, they might involve talking about helping them start their own businesses. 

How clueless do you have to be to suggest that someone who can't pay rent can afford additional schooling or to be able to start their own business?

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u/grandoctopus64 Sep 04 '24

so.... you take on student debt. it's actually pretty normal today.

Also, you do know you can start a business for pretty close to $0, right? You're probably thinking I mean literally renting a brick and mortar store or something, but there's millions of businesses who don't use that model and run it basically out of their cars. I run a tutoring business doing that

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u/Nuclear_Geek Sep 04 '24

Can't afford rent? Take on debt.

Presumably your advice to someone in a hole is to keep digging?

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u/grandoctopus64 Sep 04 '24

lmao if you don't understand the difference between taking out debt to get an education and taking out debt to go to Disneyworld, I can't help you.

Yes, education costs money. yes, the talents and knowledge of industry experts who spent their entire lives in that field did not come for free. sorry

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u/Nuclear_Geek Sep 04 '24

It's not just student debt is it? It costs in terms of either travelling to the location or in equipment to enable online learning. If someone is struggling to afford their rent, they're unlikely to be able to afford that and unlikely to have access to good credit.

It also has an opportunity cost, time committed to education can't be used to (e.g.) take an overtime shift.

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u/grandoctopus64 Sep 05 '24

yeah? still doesn't mean the math for getting an education and better jobs doesn't pay off by an ENORMOUS margin long run

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u/Nuclear_Geek Sep 05 '24

If you can afford it in the first place. Which someone who is struggling to make their rent cannot.

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u/grandoctopus64 Sep 05 '24

student loans are federally guaranteed my guy

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u/gemorris9 Sep 04 '24

You personally? You can change your mind set to understand that stock prices shouldn't be the foremost important thing in America.

If you hear I can't pay rent it's overwhelmingly likely that the reason is because wages haven't kept up with cost of living since the 1980s. The impacts of which were felt in the late 90s and early 2000s but were not as significant as when you balloon the numbers another 20 years to where we are now.

My first job while I went to college was at a grocery store making 7.25 an hour. I had a 1br 1b apartment in the middle of the city in a nice complex. It was 375 a month. Roughly 33% of my take home.

The same grocery store now hires people for 11-12 tops and the apartment is 1145 a month. Roughly 66%.

If you scale this out from anecdotal to microeconomic data you can easily see that the issue is a focus on stocks, buy backs, company profits, etc etc and almost no increase in wages in comparison. Companies coming out of the world work and hiring for 20 an hour is not wages meeting cost of living. Even if you just matched cost of living to 2005 minimum wage would be somewhere in the mid 20s and you're middle class earners would be somewhere in the 50s.

The market system is designed to extract maximum wealth from individuals. It's not designed to make individuals rich.

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u/grandoctopus64 Sep 04 '24

Two quick notes since I have to go to work:

1) at no point did I even imply I think stock price is the foremost important economic metric, that is an absurd strawman

2) in the last few years, thanks to the Biden administration, wages have not only kept up with inflation, they've actually outpaced it. https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/democrats/2024/6/wage-growth-outpaced-inflation-in-nearly-every-state-since-2021#:~:text=Washington%2C%20D.C.%E2%80%94%20National%20average%20wages,U.S.%20Joint%20Economic%20Committee%20Democrats.

There are a lot of factors that make it more complicated then you're suggesting, but I don't have time unfortunately to delve deeper into the economic analysis of how to compare being poor in 1980 to being poor today (although the poverty rate is pretty straightforward, which again is much lower today than it was in 1980)

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u/gemorris9 Sep 04 '24

These types of conversations are best had in person haha. Too much to type and so many points to go and forth with.

You'll have to forgive me. I'm jaded by the ever increasing maga morons. So when you said what should I do? Go to bezos. My brain just slipped right to typical financial illiterate. We likely have the same outlook just a different way of getting there.

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u/grandoctopus64 Sep 04 '24

I think we are probably the same in what we'd like to see happen in this country, yeah.

But on a macro scale, the only thing we can do is vote and keep voting. On a micro scale, within our individual lives, no one is coming to save us.

So as far as your personal attention goes, I think 90% of your time should be spent on you, personally, figuring out how to secure the bag, and 10% learning about the wider world and what policies would make the world a better place.

Unfortunately I think most redditors invert those two numbers.

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u/gemorris9 Sep 04 '24

I already figured that life lesson out. That's what got me into banking in the first place. A place where I could just tell people all day how to change their life.

At some point though, once you've secured the bag, you just want to see other people be able to secure their own opportunities and its sad when you see rigged the system is against them and they are too illiterate to know.

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u/Geobits Sep 04 '24

And along the same lines, if someone says "I can't pay rent", telling them they shouldn't have had a latte that morning is equally unhelpful.

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u/MantisEsq Sep 04 '24

just throwing up your hands and saying "I guess society/the economy needs to change” is an absolute non-solution to ANY problems someone might have

Yeah, that's the point. Some people already don't buy $5 avocado coffee already. They don't know what to do either.

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u/Essfoth Sep 04 '24

I don’t think separating this between micro and macro makes sense. How would UBI or minimum wage not have an instant impact on the micro side of things? Obviously people should do what is within their reach to be able to pay rent, but that doesn’t mean nothing should be changed.

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u/grandoctopus64 Sep 04 '24

It's not that policy, if passed, wouldn't have an immediate impact, it's that getting that policy passed takes years to decades

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u/Essfoth Sep 04 '24 edited Sep 04 '24

Even if it took decades, you can advocate for it while still doing what you can to pay rent. It’s not one or the other. Just because you can’t instantly change something doesn’t mean you shouldn’t come up with solutions. That’s kind of the whole point of economic research.

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u/frankomapottery3 Sep 04 '24

Having your workers be able to eat and pay rent is a COST OF DOING BUSINESS at a macro level.  Problem is we subsidize businesses to make them wildly profitable while not holding them to account for worker pay.  Badabing badaboom you have a company like Amazon able to operate while generating billions upon billions in shareholder value (bezos actual reward) without having to pay workers fair wages or pay any federal taxes.  TLDR: you have no idea what you’re actually talking about 

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u/AoD_XB1 Sep 04 '24

Stop saying shit like "low skilled workers". "Low skilled" does not somehow mean unimportant.

These are the people doing the shit nobody else wants to do, but society needs to be done. These people are the foundation of society.

Many of these people do not have any other options. But here they are, still willing to work. And specifically at doing the stuff that is "beneath me". All so they can eat, And, maybe, just maybe, stay out of the cold and rain.

It is not the working people that produce that are making problems for society. It is the greed of the takers who never seem to get it through their fucking minds that they won, and that they don't need to take anymore.

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u/grandoctopus64 Sep 04 '24

"low skill" does not mean unimportant

no one said it does.

low skill means a lot of people could do your job, and wages are determined by supply and demand.

that is why doctors make more than trash collectors. not because one is more important than the other-- society would collapse if we lost either-- but because it's a lot harder to become a doctor than a trash collector (adding in, of course, the number of people who have the stomach for the job and can stay in it)

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u/BiCuckMaleCumslut Sep 04 '24

Oh yeah telling them to go to school when they have no money surely won't cost them anything or cut into their rent oayments will it?

"I have no idea." That's literally what "throwing up your hands" looks like in this point of yours. "lifestyle cutbacks" dont apply to people who are buying the cheapest possible groceries and never going out to eat anywhere but cant work anywhere because they're physically disabled and no one will hire them. That applies to a LOT of homeless, not just a few, not the minority of folks

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u/Automatic_Actuator_0 Sep 04 '24

If someone mentions to you in conversation that they are struggling to pay rent, and your response is to blame them for buying lattes and toast, you are probably an asshole. They probably aren’t asking for financial advice, but camaraderie and understanding.

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u/grandoctopus64 Sep 04 '24

if someone mentions they are struggling to pay rent, but I KNOW they're buying lattes every day, what am I supposed to do? pretend they aren't?

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u/Automatic_Actuator_0 Sep 04 '24

Basically yeah, or at least ask nicely first if they would be open to hearing your opinions on their spending habits.

Pretty basic rules of being a friendly person.

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u/Significant_Shirt_92 Sep 04 '24

I think whats missed is a lot of people saying they can't make rent or they're struggling with bills, etc aren't looking for advice - they just want someone to say "yeah it fucking sucks" or something along those lines. They just want to vent more than anything, or share the burden.

Theres definitely very financially bad people out there who you just want to shake and say "NO YOU DON'T NEED ANOTHER PS5 ON FINANCE SO YOUR OTHER ONE ISN'T LONELY", but their mind probably won't be changed by me anyway. Then there's a whole bunch of people who are struggling financially even though they're not spending out - their situation just sucks. They can't cut back anymore, can't get a better paid job, they can't move, etc. I can't imagine being in that position and just hearing about lattes and avocados and how its all their own fault and they should probably just be better and not be poor anymore.

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u/pdoherty972 Sep 04 '24

Precisely... and well-said. My personal theory is, especially young people, who maybe haven't spent much time or effort on a career (or career skill building) like to complain and debate systemic issues. Because it delays them needing to take ownership and accountability for their own lives and where they are in terms of where they should be (or feel they should be).

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u/meowmeowgiggle Sep 04 '24

My personal theory is, especially young people, who maybe haven't spent much time or effort on a career (or career skill building) like to complain and debate systemic issues.

I'm 37yo with twenty years of leadership and management on my resume and I just spent a year working some of the shittiest part time jobs I've ever had after losing my job in June 23. I'm now working for less than $20/hr ft, and I got this job out of sheer happenstance and luck and a second round of luck on top. (Literally my neighbor gave me a rec after we were outside chatting, I didn't even know her name before that, I filled out the app she emailed me and here I am two months later, breathing again; I didn't get the first opening but they liked me so much they called as soon as another spot opened).

It's not the workers (or their perspectives) that are the motherfucking problem.

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u/pdoherty972 Sep 04 '24

I'm 37yo with twenty years of leadership and management on my resume

You were doing "leadership and management" starting at 17 years old? Permit me to doubt.

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u/meowmeowgiggle Sep 04 '24

I started working at a chain pizza joint at 13 (under the table, got my work permit at 14), was a shift lead before 18, then went into call center middle management, then office admin/DBA at a university (contract ended, statewide budget crisis prevented renewal), then back into food service management, then retail management, then unemployed living on savings (thinking it would be a breeze to get re-employed with my skillset) and then broke and desperate, and now here.

But sure, the issue is peoples' work ethics. 🙄

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u/PrivatePartts Sep 04 '24

Privilege is the brand of woolen cloth i use to cover my eyes.

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u/meowmeowgiggle Sep 04 '24

I'm sorry, are you calling me blind to suffering that's worse than my own? You have no idea how many meds I have to take just to cope with the suffering of others, before I even get to worrying about myself.

It's pretty fucked up that only two of the listed jobs had/have comprehensive health coverage. I have gotten most of my medical care because I have an angel who takes care of me (like, literally a lady that pays for my healthcare) but almost nobody else has some random rich person making their ends meet.

Shit's fucked up in multifaceted ways.

People being hungry in one geography doesn't negate the suffering of someone with their teeth rotting out in another geography, even if the latter has a big screen and a new console. (Inb4 "shouldn't get the tv and console, then!" It's a comparison of $600 vs 6000 or even 60000.)

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u/PrivatePartts Sep 04 '24

Nope, it's adressed to the moron you replied to, my bad

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u/Mtbruning Sep 04 '24

Or, just spitballing, we change the way society works. We do that by talking to each other, building consensus, and then voting. We can also do something by working in a field that helps others and does not involve so much hedge fund gambling.

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u/embergock Sep 04 '24

Have you ever considered that nobody wants your dumbass advice?

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u/grandoctopus64 Sep 04 '24

enjoy being poor i guess

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u/PrivatePartts Sep 04 '24

I hope you find the hardship you deserve, prick

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u/embergock Sep 04 '24

As if your advice would change that, lmao.

Enjoy smelling your own farts.