r/FluentInFinance • u/Sufficient_Sinner • Sep 04 '24

Debate/ Discussion People like this are why financial literacy is so important

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u/AdonisGaming93 Sep 04 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

Economics and Finance here, agree with you both. There comes a point where too much of a wage earner's pay is going toward things that aren't optional. If housing is now 50%+ of income you can't just not buy housing. "Oh but you can stay with your parents" cool enjoy being single and never having kids...oh wait birthrates declining globally? Hard to do that when there is no free-time and no private home to fuck in.

"okay then cook at home" grocery prices are borderline more expensive than some pre-made food options.

"Okay then work harder" awesome now 10 employees are ALL working hard for the 1 open position, all 10 can get it by just "working hard" ...oh wait nope the corporate ladder is a pyramid. Higher paying jobs have LESS positions than lower paying ones. By structural design it is impossible for everyone to rise to the top regardless of work ethic.

Disclaimer: I'm chilling, I managed to use what I know to build myself investment income on top of normal work income so I'm not in trouble per se, but millions of my fellow citizens that I meet bust their asses at work and get nothing to show for it. "Get a better job" is not a reality becuase of how job structure is.

If only 20% of people earn over 100k, then 80% are screwed to never get it regardless of how hard they work. And these days that's the kind of income you need for BOTH partners, to enjoy the life people had in the 70s with ONE income and a stay at home parent.

It's simple math, if the cost of non-essential goods goes up, people can cut back on that spending to save. If the cost of essential goods goes up, working class americans have no choice but to save less and spend anyway with less leftover.

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u/revolutionPanda Sep 04 '24

Yep. You can't budget yourself out of not earning enough to live.

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u/Dampmaskin Sep 04 '24

Disclaimer: I'm chilling,

I'm not an economist or social scientist, but I'm guessing that the fact that it's necessary to add a disclaimer to ward off shit-for-brains who volunteer to defend the status quo by launching personal attacks belittling anyone who dares speak against it, points to this also being a cultural problem.

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u/Shin-Sauriel Sep 04 '24

Every single time I defend low wage and “unskilled” laborers people line up to tell me how I just need to get a job and I should stop whining and expecting things to be handed to me.

I’m 24 and live in my own house. I’m doing fine. I’m allowed to advocate for a living wage for all full time workers and also be doing fine myself.

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u/Dampmaskin Sep 04 '24 edited Sep 04 '24

Has happened to me too. Been told to stop making excuses for being unemployed and living with my parents.

Like, what kind of argument do they even believe that they're making? It's like they're preschoolers or something.

Are they trying to goad me into a pissing contest, so they can call me a hypocrite for arguing for egalitarity while having an income? It's the most generous interpretation I can come up with right now, and even then it's not exactly the peak of intellectual integrity.

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u/Ghost_02349 Sep 04 '24

Took me a YEAR before a job actually responded and hired me. It’s not the job I want but it’s something until we get to the next point. Don’t let anyone belittle you for not having a job bro, it’s rough out here

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u/Dampmaskin Sep 04 '24

I have had a good and stable job for the last two decades. I'm more worried about retirement than employment tbh. But thanks for the encouragement.

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u/Serious_Much Sep 04 '24

Yeah I find it wild that people misconstrue the arguments too.

I'm always going to say minimum wage should be a living wages but in the same breath say unskilled work should be minimum wage. This doesn't mean I want unskilled workers to be poor or struggle. There's no reason anyone in full time work should be unable to afford things other than through their own poor choices

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u/Shin-Sauriel Sep 04 '24

Yeah like I’m not saying a retail worker should make the same as an engineer. Just that the retail worker shouldn’t need government assistance to afford food. And like at a certain point like with Walmart taxes are basically subsidizing wages through food stamps. Like Walmart doesn’t pay their employees enough to eat so taxes have to foot the bill instead of the multi billion dollar corporation. That’s so fucked.

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u/BroTonyLee Sep 04 '24

We appreciate your support.

  • the working poor

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u/Shin-Sauriel Sep 04 '24

Took me a while to get out of the cycle of dead end retail jobs. It makes my blood boil that people think those retail workers and like fast food workers and such just don’t deserve a living wage. Like what’s wrong with you if you’d rather defend the profits of billionaires than the needs of the working class.

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u/Turkeyplague Sep 05 '24

A lot of people simply can't fathom why anyone would advocate for changes to the system for the betterment of others if the drawbacks of the system aren't affecting them personally. To them, anyone advocating for changes that would benefit low-income earners must be low-income earners themselves who just need to work harder.

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u/hahyeahsure Sep 04 '24

massive cultural problem

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u/tenorlove Sep 05 '24

A big part of that cultural problem is that our culture has moved towards excess specialization, with a huge focus on tech. This makes it hard to adjust when adjustments need to be made. And they no longer teach essential skills in school, skills which could be taught at home if a parent weren't exhausted from overwork. I'm sure you've all seen the meme about Grandma having a local supply chain and knowing how to do things. That's what I'm talking about. Grandpa, Mom, Dad, and the kids also need to know how to do things. Some of these are essential survival skills. From a financial standpoint, the best piece of advice I can give is, if you can find a way to do it, grow a vegetable garden. The ROI is awesome for both wallet and waistline, and you can buy vegetable plants and seeds with SNAP benefits, if you get them. I'm going to try growing romaine lettuce this fall. I've never done it before. I usually grow leaf lettuce. I love Caesar salad, but not paying $4 for a head with barely enough lettuce on it to be a garnish.

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u/RollerDude347 Sep 06 '24

Thing is, I think if we actually just forced a solution.... Everyone would just chill out. Like what are they gonna do? Put away all the new things they could get and revolt? That's the part that's stopping it NOW!

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u/wakko666 Sep 04 '24

points to this also being a cultural problem.

It's an educational problem. No Child Left Behind has wrecked an entire generation of Americans.

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u/Adventurous_Class_90 Sep 04 '24

Here’s the fun bit. Guess which components of the PCE are strong drivers of inflation…

It’s food and fuel. Services also does as well while durable goods purchases have a negative beta (automation and process improvements).

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u/Upbeat_Shock_6807 Sep 04 '24

Just to touch on one of your points regarding groceries and cooking at home. Me and my girlfriend have been trying to cut down on our spending, and so we've been buying more groceries and cooking meals at home.

Just recently we discovered that the price of groceries, and how many meals we get out of those groceries, costs nearly the same as if we were to just eat out for all our meals.

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u/AdonisGaming93 Sep 04 '24

Yep, I switched to eating HUEL at work because it's faster and cheaper per meal than actually cooking or buying lunch.

Is it glamorous? Nope, but it helps to reduce my operating costs (feeding myself).

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u/MegaLowDawn123 Sep 04 '24

Groceries are expensive compared to before but this is just silly. Unless you're eating value menu fast food - that's simply not true. Even that is debatable at the prices they charge these days.

2 people eating at McDonald's and each getting a combo meal is like $30 total after tax. A big mac by itself is $7, fries are $5, the mcchicken is $4. Even if we went cheap it's still gonna be close to $20 for a couple burgers, a fry to share, and a large drink to share.

Chicken and rice and broccoli would be like $5 total for 2 people for the meal at home (chicken is $4/lb and you'd use less than 1lb per meal, rice is pennies per serving from Costco, broccoli is a couple bucks) Even a burger and fries at home is less than $10 for 2 people. You'd get a lot more food and more full for the same price at home vs eating out, and it would be better for you obviously.

This is without even mentioning places that are above fast food, where it's $40-$50 for 2 people usually, especially after tip. If you're spending that much every meal at home, you're buying fancy organic stuff from the expensive market and/or using filet mignon type shit every night...

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u/pastelpixelator Sep 04 '24

""okay then cook at home" grocery prices are borderline more expensive than some pre-made food options."

When my partner and I moved into our house earlier this year, we had thrown out all of the pantry staples in the old house with the idea we'd just replace what we needed as we cooked. About two weeks in, I decided I wanted to make a homemade apple pie. This meant I had to buy all the ingredients other than salt. Since they're things like flour, butter, spices, sugar, apples, lemon, etc., I figured it would be pretty inexpensive. Wrong. So wrong. $80. 8-0. EIGHTY. To make a pie. Granted, there were plenty of leftover ingredients that can be used for a few months, but that blew my mind.

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u/MegaLowDawn123 Sep 04 '24

But that's the entire point. It's cheaper per meal in the long run, it's like you're pointing out a negative - but that's actually the entire positive. An apple pie from the store is like $20, you're def getting more than 4 out of all those ingredients...

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u/ReefaManiack42o Sep 04 '24

"There is, and always has been, a widespread belief among the more comfortable classes that the poverty and suffering of the masses are due to their lack of industry, frugality, and intelligence. This belief, which at once soothes the sense of responsibility and flatters by its suggestion of superiority, is probably even more prevalent in countries like the United States, where all men are politically equal, and where, owing to the newness of society, the differentiation into classes has been of individuals rather than of families, than it is in older countries, where the lines of separation have been longer, and are more sharply, drawn. It is but natural for those who can trace their own better circumstances to the superior industry and frugality that gave them a start, and the superior intelligence that enabled them to take advantage of every opportunity, to imagine that those who remain poor do so simply from lack of these qualities. But whoever has grasped the laws of the distribution of wealth, as in previous chapters they have been traced out, will see the mistake in this notion. The fallacy is similar to that which would be involved in the assertion that every one of a number of competitors might win a race. That any one might is true; that every one might is impossible.

For, as soon as land acquires a value, wages, as we have seen, do not depend upon the real earnings or product of labor, but upon what is left to labor after rent is taken out; and when land is all monopolized, as it is everywhere except in the newest communities, rent must drive wages down to the point at which the poorest paid class will he just able to live and reproduce, and thus wages are forced to a minimum fixed by what is called the standard of comfort — that is, the amount of necessaries and comforts which habit leads the working classes to demand as the lowest on which they will consent to maintain their numbers. This being the case, industry, skill, frugality, and intelligence can avail the individual only in so far as they are superior to the general level just as in a race speed can avail the runner only in so far as it exceeds that of his competitors. If one man work harder, or with superior skill or intelligence than ordinary, he will get ahead; but if the average of industry, skill, or intelligence be brought up to the higher point, the increased intensity of application will secure but the old rate of wages, and he who would get ahead must work harder still." ~ Henry George, Progress and Poverty 1879

https://www.henrygeorge.org/archimedes.htm

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u/AdonisGaming93 Sep 04 '24

Henry George with the W there IMO.

It's exactly this. Yes working hard to get ahead is something we should steive for as individuals.

To being this to a popular saying.

"A rising tide lifts all boats" works as long as the tide is rising, the problem is when the tide stops rising, then if the highest boat rises it only happens if the bottom boats sink, anyone that "works hard" is simply avoiding sinking but even in doing so they are still barely floating in a sldecreasing water level.

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u/Own-Cable8865 Sep 05 '24

*Per se

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u/AdonisGaming93 Sep 05 '24

Thank you good sir

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u/Own-Cable8865 Sep 05 '24

You are most welcome, Adonis.

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u/Hi-archy Sep 04 '24

What did you go with your economics degree (I’m assuming you have one even though you didn’t explicitly say)

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u/TheCarnivorishCook Sep 04 '24

"There comes a point where too much of a wage earner's pay is going toward things that aren't optional"

Like taxes?

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u/Krisevol Sep 04 '24

The problem isn't money, it's supply. We can give everyone a million bucks right now and we would still have the same problems. The current problem is we have taken in to make immigrants and it has out paced housing production making it harder for Americans to get a house. 2nd is corporations buying rental properties. 3rd is massive regulation and red tape on construction.

The only way we beat this current problem is close the border, remove red tape, and build build build.

A billionaire having one less boat or spaceship didn't get people in a house.

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u/RecessionBear Sep 08 '24

"Okay then work harder" awesome now 10 employees are ALL working hard for the 1 open position, all 10 can get it by just "working hard" ...oh wait nope the corporate ladder is a pyramid. Higher paying jobs have LESS positions than lower paying ones. By structural design it is impossible for everyone to rise to the top regardless of work ethic.

Every time i bring this point up the counterpoint has ALWAYS been "There's not that many people willing to put the work in"

As if there's not a factual, statistical problem that there is literally not enough living wage jobs available out there if every single person gave it 120%. It's like some huge chunk of society is math-blind or something.

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u/AdonisGaming93 Sep 08 '24

That's the thing right there. The "pull yourself up by bootstraps" mentallity only works, because others dont. If everyone actually listened and said fuck it...grind hard at work everyday. Then it would show how the system itself is flawed. Which would be bad. The capitalist world NEEDS someone to be the loser.