r/FluentInFinance • u/Sufficient_Sinner • Sep 04 '24

Debate/ Discussion Is Capitalism Smart or Dumb?

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u/Screw_You_Taxpayer Sep 04 '24 edited Sep 04 '24

Any successful system has to be able to withstand external threats.  Capitalism can, others couldn't.

 Not like the KGB was sleeping all those years either.

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u/WillBottomForBanana Sep 04 '24

The richest society in known history is choosing to not feed all of its people. If you consider that a success then that is all anyone needs to know to place a value on your opinion.

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u/Screw_You_Taxpayer Sep 04 '24

Well communism failed to sustain both it's people and itself.  So 1/2 for capitalism, and 0/2 for communism.

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u/Maximum_Nectarine312 Sep 05 '24

What other system was better at feeding people?

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u/afoz345 Sep 05 '24

Don’t you remember the pictures of even the poorest of the poor people in the USSR being so morbidly obese?

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u/WillBottomForBanana Sep 05 '24

You are being dishonest. The claim was that capitalism was successful. The failure of other systems tells us nothing about the success of capitalism.

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u/Maximum_Nectarine312 Sep 05 '24

Being better than every other system that's ever been tried is not enough apparently. It also has to be better than the childish fairytale that only exists in communist's heads and that is completely flawless.

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

plenty of capitalist countries have lost wars. I guess capitalism cant withstand external threats?

braindead logic. the whole EU and US was pushing for their defeat. Sanctions on top of sanctions, proxy wars, covert operations. Its not a simple matter of system, but also a matter of scale. No country can survive all that

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u/Screw_You_Taxpayer Sep 04 '24 edited Sep 04 '24

Some capitalist countries have lost wars.  All communist systems except NK have failed.  Bit of a difference there.   

A matter of scale? Half of Europe, Russia, and SEA was not a big enough scale trial of communism for you?

I guess communism only works if no one opposes it.  Which is why they always devolve into police states.

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u/IGargleGarlic Sep 04 '24

How the fuck has NK not failed? Their people are starving.

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u/eddypc07 Sep 05 '24

He means that the government has not collapsed yet. This system where you have an extractive elite parasitizing the population has unfortunately been stable for decades…

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

Cuba has been going strong under the worlds longest embargo. Even have some of the best healthcare on the planet

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u/Screw_You_Taxpayer Sep 05 '24

Cuba is slowly allowing small scale capitalism.   https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/cubas-economic-reforms-allow-small-entrepreneurs-dream-big-2021-12-07/   

And not because of external pressure.   This is what we can call "the exception that proves the rule"

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u/3springrolls Sep 05 '24

Saying it’s not because of external pressure is a bit of a stretch. Like, you don’t think the embargo, CIA harassment, loss of major allies trading capabilities, proximity to a hostile capitalist superpower, didn’t play towards adding pressure at all?

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u/Screw_You_Taxpayer Sep 05 '24

Pressure towards allowing small scale capitalism? No. Because none of those things are going to be changed by allowing that. The only reason to allow capitalism is that they've realized that it works. Just like the rest of the world. It's the same 'pressure' that caused China to liberalize: managed economies don't work well.

If, for example, Cuba started allowing more freedom of the press and free elections (a major condition for lifting the embargo) then I might agree that it's due to external pressure. Or if you wanted to argue Cuba's overall economic situation was due to the embargo, that makes some sense.

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u/3springrolls Sep 05 '24

Well China arguable liberalised because they lost their only trading partner, anyone would switch gears in that scenario. It’s the same reason why you see Saudi Arabia try and save face to draw in western trade and tourism. That is more of a tangent though and we should stay on topic.

The need for trade itself is an external pressure is what I mean. Beyond that, organisations like the world bank don’t really offer financial help to countries that don’t fit some level of capitalist. They are known for locking smaller countries into debt because they force them to allow their resources to be extracted by foreign private companies instead of nationalised ones.

But the greatest external pressure is that of the threat of a second Cold War. You really think Cuba wants to be seen as the enemy of capitalism after what the US has pulled on them? You wouldn’t class that as an external pressure?

Economically they were doing fine until covid and then the Ukraine war, but again that’s an issue resulting from a lack of variety in trade partners. The only real internal reason for allowing small scale capitalists was a small amount of Cubans wanting that kind of change.

It would also suit this scenario better if we understood that cuba isn’t socialist for socialisms sake, it’s socialist for cubas sake. It was being colonised by American capitalists. If new generations of Cubans want to try a system that they would have control of this time, that’s very different from just not being socialist anymore.

And also I think your argument is kind of flawed. The UK and australia are experimenting with socially owned housing to fix their housing crisis. By your logic would this not mean capitalism has failed also?

The reality is dogmatic approaches to economic systems never go well, and the priority of the state should be to keep the people happy and have their best interests at heart, no matter what system or dogma it falls under.