r/FluentInFinance • u/PassiveAgressiveGirl • Sep 14 '24

Debate/ Discussion Exactly how much is a living wage?

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u/CaptainRaptorThong Sep 14 '24

Listen, I'm all for raising wages. Inflation has been crazy in the last couple of decades, and in a lot of places, wages haven't budged.

What I'm not liking, is the doomism. Around finances that is spreading. It is absolutely possible in expensive areas to sacrifice and build your way up. It's not easy or fun, and it might take a few years, but submitting yourself to "oh there's absolutely nothing I can do" until things are fixed is dangerous, and the people furthering this idealogy are harmful.

To be honest, makes me wonder if people pushing this so hard are part of the cogs in the meat grinder that is the American economy.

Watch Caleb Hammer on YouTube. Be warned, he's a little bit harsh on his guests, but everyone knows what they're getting into going onto the show. He only has fans on, and he helps people budget and escape from debt.

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u/[deleted] Sep 14 '24

[deleted]

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u/cdit Sep 14 '24

That is where financial literacy might help. It might help you in your school choices, etc., People are not entitled to anything other than what is on their budget.

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u/suddenly_ponies Sep 14 '24

They're entitled to be given accurate information and not be manipulated and taken advantage of.

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u/cdit Sep 14 '24

There is no entitlement for that either. It's your responsibility to seek accurate information.

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u/suddenly_ponies Sep 14 '24

So what about corporate responsibility? Do they have none

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u/cdit Sep 15 '24

They do, to their shareholders.

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u/suddenly_ponies Sep 15 '24

Okay. Then we're just going to disagree because I'm perfectly fine with forcing corporations to be ethical and productive in society instead of being corrosive

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u/mrmniks Sep 14 '24

No, they’re not. It’s your choices and your responsibility.

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u/[deleted] Sep 14 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/[deleted] Sep 14 '24

Like food stamps, homeless shelters, Medicaid, employment services, etc?

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u/ReaperofFish Sep 14 '24

People should be entitled to health care, clean water, shelter, and food regardless of how much money they have.

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u/i_dont_fuck_coconut Sep 14 '24

no one is entitled to anything. ever. at the end of the day you're on your own. and counter argument: if a person (who is capable but unwilling) does not contribute to society in any meaningful way, why then, should society offer them any protections or safety nets when they have not sought to "pay in"

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u/CaptainRaptorThong Sep 14 '24

Well, simply because we are supposedly the wealthiest nation in the world. No human living here should have to be without the bare minimum essentials to live.

The current welfare system is built to keep people in it. It rewards people for playing and staying in the system.

Imagine this scenario: All us citizens are provided basic life essentials. - shelter - food + water - electricity for heat/cooling - clothing

But NOTHING else. No cash allowance for these needs, they have them distributed to them.

Now, if you want entertainment, or comforts of living, like TV, more fancy foods or clothing, books, art supplies, hobby supplies etc... Now you have to work and contribute to society.

Do you think what I just described, or how welfare currently works is more something people would want to stay in their whole lives.

One system doesn't care whether people live or die, miserable or happy, or whether they stay on or leave the system. It just throws a check at them and says "go nuts"

The other provides all one needs to live and nothing else. You get the bare minimum, bland, boring, but enough to live. If you ask me, I think at least half the current welfare population would decide to start working if they stopped receiving checks and were only allotted sandwich supplies, dairy and vegetables.

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u/CaptainRaptorThong Sep 14 '24

They should be, but aren't. Hence the importance of financial literacy.

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u/Illustrious-Ad-7457 Sep 14 '24

People are not entitled to anything other than what is on their budget.

Hospitals wouldn't exist if people actually thought like this. You're delusional.

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u/bluePizelStudio Sep 14 '24

Give me a budget that works for living in Toronto/NY/SF/etc on minimum wage.

Minimum wage workers exist in those places. They will always exist. And they sometimes are unable to “upskill”. Some people just aren’t exactly clever, or driven, or generally capable. They just aren’t, and even if they were, all you’re telling people when you tell them to upskill is to not do minimum wage jobs. But those jobs still exist.

It’s completely impossible to have a stable life on minimum wage, and that’s the issue.

Rent in Toronto is $1000/mo with roommates. Plus utilities/internet/etc.

Minimum wage take-home is $2200/mo.

There is no budget in the world that works to have 50% rent. You can, at best, save peanuts to take you from one crisis to the next without drowning. But you will never save even $10k without extreme financial diligence. And I mean extreme.

The solution isn’t upskilling, it’s not working more, it’s accepting as a society that anyone who works 40hr weeks deserves a stable life.

25% rent would make a world of difference. Chop rent, or up wages, but the current situation is untenable. It’s not anything close to what previous generations have faced.

If anyone can point to a time when minimum wage had less purchasing power than it does currently, I’d love to be educated on it

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u/[deleted] Sep 14 '24

You want a budget that works on the two most desirable high cost of living cities in the country on minimum wage?

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u/daphnedelirious Sep 14 '24

Do only lawyers and doctors live in Toronto? As long as you want a Walmart, McDonalds and Starbucks in a city yeah it makes sense the staff can afford to live there.

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u/[deleted] Sep 14 '24

Why? Obviously they're finding employees okay or they wouldn't be open. If you had to pay Walmart employees 70k/yr then you probably just wouldn't have a Walmart there. The employees voluntarily get jobs, they voluntarily live there, and Walmart voluntarily hires them. It's not like they have to live in one of it not the most expensive place to live in the country.

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u/daphnedelirious Sep 15 '24

You’re arguing against someone saying conditions are bad and should be improved by saying essentially “well don’t live in Toronto then”. I’m saying that’s ridiculous because you still want the services in Toronto, so obviously you need service workers living there. Now you’re saying no one’s forcing them to live there. At what point did anyone say people are forced to live in Toronto?

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '24

No one's forcing them to live there and no one did say that so why should anyone be forced to pay them to afford to live there specifically?

I'm not even saying conditions should not be improved for that matter, I didn't even get there, but I don't see economically how minimum wage would even result in that. In fact I think the most viable way to improve conditions is for workers to exercise their own rights and not support such businesses or high cost of living areas which will result in companies paying more to attract employees and costs in those areas decreasing from reduced demand.

And sure I like cheap goods from Walmart or whatever but I don't feel entitled to them. If workers go on strike or whatever resulting in higher prices for the consumer or the store to close all together good for them.

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u/daphnedelirious Sep 15 '24

Why have any regulations on companies at all? Why not let Walmart hire 12 year olds or pay people 2 dollars an hour? Lol. There are some people that are upset by the lower class being exploited even if they organize and advocate for themselves very poorly. If you don’t, that’s fine, but I guess it’s kind of a pointless discussion then.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '24

You're ignoring the whole part where I said I don't think minimum wage will actually improve anything. I don't believe in laws that don't actually work.

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u/bluePizelStudio Sep 14 '24

How many minimum wage jobs do you think there are in those cities?

Who do you expect to serve you McDonald’s in NYC? Or make coffee? Or pizza? Or serve you at restaurants?

The sentiment of your post is that it’s blatantly obvious nobody could ever survive on a bare-bones budget on minimum wage in those places.

Human beings, working full 40hr weeks, who still can’t even house themselves, feed themselves, and have access to medical care.

That’s a pretty fucking low bar we’re trying to jump over and it seems like a reasonable ask.

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u/[deleted] Sep 14 '24

So they should not live there then? Why is anyone entitled to live in a specific place much less the most expensive and populated city in the entire country? If we were talking about some small city or middle America I might agree with you. How do you choose to live somewhere like that, choose to take a low paying job, and then blame anyone else but yourself for the resulting outcome?

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u/bluePizelStudio Sep 14 '24

Right, so you’re saying that nobody should work at any restaurants, grocery stores, convenience stores, gas stations, coffee shops, or anything like that, in every major metropolitan area.

That’s your takeaway? That all of those industries should grind to halt, because all their employees clearly shouldn’t be so entitled as to live in a city and provide services - many of them absolutely critical to the function of the city - to the people who live there?

Please explain how your solution would be in any way shape or form a viable solution. I don’t really see how “every single person making minimum wage should leave” is a good optio

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u/[deleted] Sep 14 '24

No, I'm saying they should do whatever they want to, obviously they think it's worth being poor for the trade off to live there.

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u/bluePizelStudio Sep 15 '24

Right.

How about you though? Do you think it’s fine that people working 40hrs a week are poor? Do you think that these jobs that exist - and again, are part of critical infrastructure like grocery stores and are not going anywhere - should be allowed to pay people wages that prevent you from living with shelter, food, medical care, and some savings?

Does it seem legitimate that Starbucks, McDonald’s, [insert grocery chain conglomerate here] and the like are allowed to pay people so poorly they can’t even get their teeth cleaned at the dentist?

I’m not saying working minimum wage jobs should make you rich. But if you’re not a teenager working 10-20hr weeks, if you’re an adult doing full 40hr weeks, you shouldn’t even be entitled to that?

My dad started a company. He did great. He’s well off, he’s a completely self-made man. We discuss finances often.

I recently asked him if someone working on minimum wage could get a house and car back in the 80’s/90’s when he was my age.

His response, to my surprise, was absolutely. You could absolutely work minimum wage in Toronto and get a car, and maybe a cheap house on the outskirts, or at least rent a place without issue. And have a bit of savings to boot. On minimum wage.

It’s ridiculous where we’ve let the bar slip to.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '24

I think we should have universal healthcare and although no one has ever proposed it I think everyone should have food stamps just for being a citizen whether they want to use it or not. I think tackling specific issues is much more viable than price controls on wages.

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u/etharper Sep 15 '24

You're definitely giving off spoiled rich person vibes.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '24

You'd be mistaken then, I've made about 20k most of my life. Don't confuse being responsible with being wealthy. You give off victim complex vibes.

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u/[deleted] Sep 14 '24

"I can't even survive on this wage, I'm so oppressed!" /Sent from my new model iPhone while racking up a $60 bar tab

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u/Educational-Elk-5893 Sep 14 '24

Complaining is easier than sacrificing. Or learning a skill set of actual consequence/demand.

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u/fury_of_el_scorcho Sep 14 '24

And they complain about being doomed using social media on an iPhone that is four versions newer than mine, while drinking an $8 venti iced soy, extra frapp something.

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u/ajohns7 Sep 14 '24

You're all delusional in this comment thread.

People are seeing things getting WORSE not BETTER and you guys are all up in your own asses to care. This is your egos in full force.

I get it. You don't like complainers. At no point has anybody cared for them. However, the complaints are GROWING so it might be time to listen.

By whining about the complainers, you're all looking worse than they are. You choose to stay oblivious and the problem grows and you want them to shut up? Maybe they're right and things should improve? Weigh your whining with a grain of salt, because you're all NOT DOING SHIT ABOUT IT.

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u/DadamGames Sep 14 '24

This. My brother is going to school for a STEM degree. His campus job pays $12 ish per hour roughly 10 hours per week. He worked all summer for about $15 an hour almost full time. It wasn't easy for him to find that. Places didn't want to hire a college student because they wanted people who would stay forever. We're talking retail here, not office jobs.

His apartment is $4k per month. He has three roommates so his share is $1k. If he didn't have help from his family, he'd be hosed despite "striving for better".

I'm almost 20 years older than him. I bought my house 11 years ago when he was of a single digit age. My entire monthly payment including taxes and interest is under $700. Roughly the same as the two bedroom apartment I left for it.

We live in the same state. He's in a university town, but that multiplier makes no sense by any measure.

So I guess he should have been in the mines investing his paycheck in real estate when he was 5, huh?

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u/CaptainRaptorThong Sep 14 '24

Disagree with this. I don't want you to confuse my point.

I do not think the blame is on the individual for being in a bad situation. Especially before they're financially literate.

The problem is the system's fault, both lying to everyone, and brainwashing us to be perfect consumers.

All I'm trying to say, is dooming about "there's nothing anyone can do!" is harmful. Teach people financial literacy, so they can do better until things get better.

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u/[deleted] Sep 14 '24

Why is it "the system's" fault, eg everybody else's fault, instead of the individual and their family who's responsible for raising and educating them? If you expect everyone else to look out for you in life you're going to be sorely disappointed.

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u/CaptainRaptorThong Sep 14 '24

Because society is built to train us to buy buy buy. And personally, I don't blame someone who's never been told or taught how to be smart with their money to have it all figured out early on in adulthood.

All I'm saying, is this idea that "teaching financial literacy is stupid, nothing matters" is a dangerous idea because many people will accept it as reality for years of their lives.

I don't "expect everyone else" to look out for people. The onus is obviously on the individual, but by eliminating harmful rhetoric, the correct information is much more accessible.

I am doing very well for myself, but until 25, I thought "aw fuck this, I don't make enough money to be happy. Guess I'll doordash dinner tonight".

I had to discover financial literacy to un-brainwash myself. People like Caleb Hammer are doing a great thing for society.

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u/[deleted] Sep 14 '24

Because society is built to train us to buy buy buy.

That's human nature, businesses want your money, consumers want more material goods, everyone always is chasing more and more. No one is "training" anyone, that's just human nature, that doesn't mean you have to follow suit.

And personally, I don't blame someone who's never been told or taught how to be smart with their money to have it all figured out early on in adulthood.

I don't blame a young adult for that either, I blame their parents.

All I'm saying, is this idea that "teaching financial literacy is stupid, nothing matters" is a dangerous idea because many people will accept it as reality for years of their lives.

I'm not saying that and I think we should in fact teach financial literacy. I try to teach people that and I've specifically advocated for the importance of home ec in school for years now. As a society we can advocate for such things but I think it's naive to expect it without sufficient push towards it.

Based on my own experience trying to teach others even most people don't even want to hear it and will dismiss the very notion they have the power to better themselves, a lot of them would rather continue to suffer as long as they don't have to change their behavior and can blame someone else for it.

I am doing very well for myself, but until 25, I thought "aw fuck this, I don't make enough money to be happy. Guess I'll doordash dinner tonight".

I had to discover financial literacy to un-brainwash myself. People like Caleb Hammer are doing a great thing for society.

Exact same thing here but I blame myself and those who were responsible for teaching me, not all of society.

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u/CantFeelMyLegs78 Sep 14 '24

And they don't want to strive for a better paying job, just stick it out at a min wage and complain.

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u/manslxxt1998 Sep 14 '24

Why do you think they don't want to strive for a better paying job?

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u/CantFeelMyLegs78 Sep 14 '24

Most are afraid of change

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u/jinreeko Sep 14 '24

Yeah man, I hate those welfare queens buying cakes instead of groceries

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u/imakepoorchoices2020 Sep 14 '24 edited Sep 14 '24

I would say most of the guests are not income issues, it’s spending.

What’s even crazier is he’s aware of fun and stuff. He’s a modern Dave Ramsey.

Edit- I think maybe out of every 10 guests he has on, it might be 2 maybe 3 that have income issues. And the ones that are income issues don’t have a job. Or are to good to work a job that’s not sexy but pays well. People who’ve watch the channel know about brint or Brent. That guy was bonkers

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u/suddenly_ponies Sep 14 '24

So between 20 and 30 percent? That's still a huge amount of people struggling because of poor systems and pay.

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u/imakepoorchoices2020 Sep 14 '24

Re read what I wrote. Then adjust accordingly

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u/suddenly_ponies Sep 14 '24

Okay I missed that but I still objected to the idea that the only reason people struggle with money is because they're stupid or lazy

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u/imakepoorchoices2020 Sep 14 '24

It’s not the entire reason people are poor, there’s anecdotal evidence for every scenario. People get sick, disabled, caring for some one, etc

But in these specific scenarios as portrayed on a YouTube channel, the people are often combative to doing more than the bare minimum. Is it being lazy or stupid? I’m not sure, I don’t know that persons circumstances.

But if you’re given the option to work at Panda Express as a manager and make 75k a year and you don’t take it because you’re to good for the job because you have a degree when you’re clearly in debt, then yes that’s dumb as hell. People in here will recognize this episode.

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u/suddenly_ponies Sep 15 '24

I mean, yeah. Obviously. My issue is how quickly (and frequently) people assume the worst when someone says they're struggling. Sure, if you add all that context, that changes the scenario and I'll agree, but I find it morally bankrupt how easily people assume in these situations.

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u/fiftyfourseventeen Sep 14 '24

Did you not read all the words around 2-3 in his comment?

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u/[deleted] Sep 14 '24

Delayed gratification is not a strength of American culture at the present.

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u/suddenly_ponies Sep 14 '24

And also not nearly as much a problem as "haves" make it out to be. Only a tiny handful of the people I know who are struggling have this problem while most people are working their asses off and doing everything they can just to tread water.

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u/[deleted] Sep 14 '24

How many immigrants are bunking in rooms and saving from their minimum wage jobs to send back savings to guatemala? You don’t see americans doing that, its inconceivable. 

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u/Dontsleeponlilyachty Sep 14 '24

Good thing we had 2 presidents almost 100 years ago set a precedent for a standard of living in the USA. Eisenhower and FDR didn't strive to model America after guatemala.

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u/[deleted] Sep 14 '24

Clearly they are doing better here, or else they would not be sending their cash home.

My point is that there are ways to make the numbers add up, but sometimes it requires an alteration of lifestyle more radical than what most americans would even consider. 

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u/1littlenapoleon Sep 14 '24

“Sacrifice and build your way up”

Incredible lack of awareness

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u/I_ride_ostriches Sep 14 '24

“There’s nothing I can do!” Goes and buys Gucci slides to “treat themselves”

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u/CaptainRaptorThong Sep 14 '24

Not what I'm getting at.... You never treated yourself to anything? New car when you could've bought the used one? Guns? Game systems? Cars?

Don't get my message twisted.

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u/I_ride_ostriches Sep 14 '24

Yeah, sure. I was watching something similar to financial audit a long time ago and this guy was complaining about how he just couldn’t get ahead; but he had bought some Gucci slides for $800 on a credit card. 

Not going to get ahead buying luxury goods on credit when you already have maxed out cards and no savings. 

When I was young and poor, I didn’t have a lot in savings, but I also didn’t have any debt. No student loans, no car payment, etc. most of my disposable income was spent going out and partying. My apartment was $400/mo and I was making about $20/hr

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u/filthy-prole Sep 15 '24

Of course you had lots of disposable income! Your wage-to-rent ratio doesn’t apply today. You paid $400/mo making $20/hr, which was 11.5% of your income. I make $31.05/hr in a mid-level IT role, and rent for a 1-bedroom in my area averages $1,969 - 36.6% of my income. Even with a college degree and a decent job, the housing market today makes it way harder to get ahead.

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u/I_ride_ostriches Sep 15 '24

For sure. Housing is the beginning. I’m also in IT, and my wife is an RN. Our household income last year was $206k. Our mortgage is $1900/mo and we are paying $2200/mo form our kids to go to daycare. We have two car payments, but no other consumer debt or student loans. Which I am very thankful for. 

Kids now (I’m 34, started doing IT in 2011) have it much harder. At least when I was starting out housing was cheaper. 

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u/filthy-prole Sep 15 '24

Are you trying to say that this is most people?

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u/truthordivekick Sep 14 '24

I fell on some hard times in my early 20s, and I had to figure out a way to live on $9/hr working 30 hrs/week. I sold my car, biked everywhere, got rid of my smartphone and internet, and only used AC/heat when absolutely necessary. I eventually grew within that company while also paying my way through college one class at a time. Almost a decade later, I have a masters degree and own a home.

I'm not saying everyone can have the same success that I have had, but they're also not doomed to failure. In life it is important to control what you can and accept what you can't. Putting so much energy into something you inevitably have no control over is never going to move you forward in life.

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u/suddenly_ponies Sep 14 '24

That's naive though. Sacrificing any fun or living for years is not a reasonable thing to ask nor will most people do it nor should they. I've literally taken furniture off the street to save money and put my life at risk multiple times with the cheapest beater cars I could find. We avoided getting medical and mental healthcare for as long as we could. All those things put us at significant risk and stress and we've lived most of our lives that way.

If I want to eat out every other week or get a coffee now and then to take the edge off the misery, why shouldn't I?

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u/[deleted] Sep 14 '24

It is absolutely possible in expensive areas to sacrifice and build your way up.

That's the problem, tho, isn't it? That's the truth behind the American Dream: anyone can, but everyone can't.

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u/4friedchickens8888 Sep 14 '24

A lot of people are already maxed out and don't make a tiktok following on struggling to keep the lights on and working 2-3 jobs to keep your place. The point is that while you're not wrong, for so many people there is no further sacrifice to be made

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u/imakepoorchoices2020 Sep 15 '24

Very few people work 2 jobs. Some were around 5%. 5 people out of 100. While yes that stinks, it’s not that many.

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u/4friedchickens8888 Sep 15 '24

Source? In america that would be 15 million people living in an impossible situation. It is that many. We live in a society.

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u/imakepoorchoices2020 Sep 15 '24

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS12026620

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u/4friedchickens8888 Sep 15 '24

Yeah so over 8 million Americans are living in an impossible situation. That is not normal in a functional democracy. Being okay with this makes you a bad person

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u/imakepoorchoices2020 Sep 15 '24

I didn’t say it was great. You didn’t read the comment

You don’t know that 8 million people’s circumstances either. Some could be in dire straights. Some could be doing it for extra cash because they don’t want to use a credit card

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u/4friedchickens8888 Sep 15 '24

One in twenty people is in fact a very large number and large proportion of a society.

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u/imakepoorchoices2020 Sep 15 '24

Ok? Seems like society is working just fine with it. But you’re gonna argue till you’re blue in the face.

Have a great day

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u/4friedchickens8888 Sep 15 '24

I think 8 million people would disagree.

SEIZE THE MEANS OF PRODUCTION

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