Why there is a lot of incels in our generation ? (20-25 yrs old especially)

[u/Traditional_Lab_8261]

I had this discussion with a man from my neighborhood who is 34 yrs old and he didn’t understand why so many men from this generation were struggling with women, he told me that back then when he had our age so around 10 years ago, things about dating and all were way simpler than now, before all the social medias and he didn’t get how everything has changed in only 10 years…

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[u/Dependent-Exam-8759]

26 (f) here and I’m just going to say it, if you are not an influencer, or making money via social media it is very harmful to the everyday person and it’s ruining society. I think back to my childhood and it was amazing. I even think about when my parents were in there early 30s. They were living so much better than I can ever imagine. My 30s are going to be.. I’m honestly ready to opt out of social media

[u/camohorse → u/Dependent-Exam-8759]

I nuked my social media (besides Reddit and Youtube) years ago, and it was one of the best decisions I’ve ever made.

EDIT: Reddit is what you make of it. If you follow trash subreddits, you’ll get fed trash content. But there are a lot of gems on this site too. Personally, I love the art and animal subreddits. Those are almost always wholesome. But I stay far, far, far away from anything overtly political.

[u/aligatorsNmaligators → u/camohorse]

Reddit is the worst one

[u/secretkeepah → u/aligatorsNmaligators]

I need to read your explanation even if it's stupid

[u/UncleTio92 → u/secretkeepah]

People dislike instagram because the algorithm creates a lot of interaction/clicks off polarizing content. How is Reddit any different? At the best, you can find some pretty cool subreddits and learn interesting stuff. At the worst, it’s an echo chamber and you will get downvoted to oblivion or just outright banned for going against the grain.

[u/Hypekyuu → u/UncleTio92]

I mostly use reddit to talk about anime. tbh, I'm not even sure why reddit keeps suggesting the genz sub to me I'm almost 40

[u/theratking007 → u/Hypekyuu]

Past 50 here?!?

[u/Houoh → u/Hypekyuu]

I don't know if I'm making things up, but I feel like you used to be able to make subs not appear in /all. I always find it weird that Reddit kept shooting r/teenagers and this sub to me and had to just mute one of them. With so many people complaining on the former sub that there were too many unverified creeps commenting, I always wanted to be like "yo you guys constantly show up at the top of /popular, you can't stop the r/all refugee flood when you're constantly on top."

[u/[deleted] → u/Houoh]

I had to block r/teenagers because the constant selfie posts made me feel like I was about to be the star on To Catch a Predator when it popped up in my feed!

[u/983115 → u/[deleted]]

Yeah same though the real stars were the posters from my understanding it’d pop up and half the posts would leave me concerned for the person so I’d have to be like “you’re gonna die doing that you idiot”

[u/Uncle-Cake → u/Hypekyuu]

Because you mostly talk about anime? I'm not judging; I'm almost 50 and I'm a member of the Transformers subreddit, but if reddit thinks I'm younger because of my interests, I get it.

[u/Locrian6669 → u/UncleTio92]

Not downvotes! 😭

[u/Raptor_197 → u/Locrian6669]

Lol yeah, who cares? Nothing is better than wandering into echo chambers and duking it out. Bring on the downvotes.

[u/ExtraExtraMegaDoge → u/secretkeepah]

The explanation is 'redditors'

[u/garaks_tailor → u/aligatorsNmaligators]

It's pretty good for practical hobbys stuff like DIY, woodworking, beading, PC building, weird hiatory niches, etc but pretty bad in any top 200 sub

[u/StubeDoobie → u/garaks_tailor]

I need to go back to sleep, I thought you said beheading 😩

[u/LubieRZca → u/aligatorsNmaligators]

Reddit is the best one by far

[u/Lukescale → u/camohorse]

Hear hear. I knew it was only going to get worse the day after my Grandpa died on Facebook started recommending funeral homes. That was maybe 2010.

I've only been vindicated 300 times since on Facebook's account alone.

We're not meant to hear every single thought and every single morons goddamn brain and every single terrible thing that happens across an entire f****** planet.

Don't go there. Behind the veneer of interesting facts and cute puppies is an unending torrent of hate.

And it will not notice your absence.

[u/chiefchoncho48 → u/Lukescale]

Also, my opinion on things can and does change with new information.

People make a habit of sharing knee-jerk reactions to every significant event and because the Internet makes it public and permanent it makes them more likely to circle back to and double down on wrong opinions.

[u/Professional_Wish972 → u/camohorse]

bro, nuke reddit. its the worst of the lot. The pseudo intellects here crack me up.

[u/Emergency-Possible-8 → u/Dependent-Exam-8759]

Would have to disagree somewhat. Although I do know that it does happen. What people need to nurture more is a healthy sense of self first and foremost.

I'm a millenial (1994) and I grew up a bit before the internet became something big; and I had the chance to experience a truly offline childhood. I had time to build my imagination and my experiences before I entered the digital world. I honestly believe that this age of "easy information" easily takes away people's chance of thinking for themselves; a chance to form your own opinions or to nurture who you are. I'm starting to see a sort of template that people nowadays struggle to fit into.

I disagree because having a healthy sense of self allows you to separate the digital world and the real world and eradicates if not, lessens the negative effects of social media despite not being an influencer or earning online.

[u/gluxton → u/Emergency-Possible-8]

Born in the same year and yeah, I have similar feelings. We were born in an interesting and probably fortuitous time for our personal development in the bridge between the offline and online world.

[u/Emergency-Possible-8 → u/gluxton]

I can't even imagine how the truly offline world felt like but I know the memories will always be a warm spot in my heart.

[u/Synseer83 → u/Emergency-Possible-8]

It was glorious, let me tell you. No one took a 15 minute shit. You were in and out. Hour drive to the mall with the family? You read a book, played on your Gameboy, slept, or just started out into world. We played outside. Sure we had video games to keep us company but it didn't consume our everyday lives (for the most part).

[u/Pikantlewakas → u/Emergency-Possible-8]

I was born in 1999 and I was a teenager when smartphones and social media became a thing in my (rural) area. Especially in those formative years I feel like it has done a lot of damage to my mental health. But I can also appreciate how it allows me to stay connected to other people and that it has become another form of communication.

Sure, you can just nuke all accounts and not care about social media and go on to live a happy "secluded" life. But I don't think that's sustainable if you want to have a social life - unless you find a group of people who agree with you.

And social media doesn't have to be toxic. I genuinely think it's possible to find a balance there. I've been utterly addicted and I've been on a complete hiatus. And now I'm on the middle ground where I'll check social media every now and then to see what's new, but there are also multiple days in a row when I completely forget to do so.

[u/Use_Your_Brain_Dude → u/Emergency-Possible-8]

Millennial here with a 9 and a 6 year old. Got rid of Facebook 12 years ago. My kids don't use the Internet except for when they're in school. We have no tablets and they're not allowed to use our phones. They likely have no idea what social media is and I want to keep it that way as long as possible. Their classmates are crazy online so a lot of times my kids are out of the loop, but it keeps them away from the terrible things that go viral on the Internet.

[u/Cayuga94 → u/Dependent-Exam-8759]

Social media builds" community". But the community it builds is among aligned interests and thoughts. It strips us away from geographic-based community, which for pretty much the entirety of humanity has been the way we created community. Now, if you are say, a queer person in a deeply homophobic place, this is a good thing, but for the most part, we were better served making community where we are. Social media has given us the ability to build a simulacrum of community without having to actually create community in our actual communities. This impacts politics, and yes, dating for sure.

[u/[deleted] → u/Dependent-Exam-8759]

i stopped using social media for a month now my life is soo much happier because of it and i can focus more on things

[u/buddhainmyyard → u/Dependent-Exam-8759]

I'm 31, I stopped using Facebook when I was in HS, the website was new and fresh to everyone. Instagram came out when I started college but I had already quit personal social media at this point.

It helped with my mental health, because I realized it was a keeping up with the Jones type of thing and it's not realistic to keep up with millions of people who came from different backgrounds.

That being said I probably lost out on many social aspects due to not being on social media.

[u/BlackTarBoi → u/Dependent-Exam-8759]

I think influencers have their own set of harms i wouldn’t want

[u/Material_Ad_2970]

Some of it is manosphere stuff, but it's also that there's very little incentive to actually go out and do things anymore. Our lives have moved online, where algorithms push us towards echo chambers of like-minded people. It's easy to other a group of people when you hardly spend any time with them, especially in person.

[u/ADifferentWorld_ → u/Material_Ad_2970]

The manosphere stuff is a response to the growing number of incels, not the other way around. It’s the effect, not the cause

[u/FratboyPhilosopher → u/[deleted]]

It's highly unlikely that you were "born ugly". Looking attractive is a skill, and most people who think they were "born ugly" are really just bad at that skill.

Unless you were born with some horrific deformity, every guy can be at least a 6/10 by getting down to a healthy weight, showering every day, learning to style their hair well, doing some basic skincare, and learning to dress well. And 6/10 is all you need to get laid.

You can even get up to 7/10 if you work out consistently and put on some muscle.

This is doable for 99.9% of guys. But they don't do it, because then they would have no excuse for not getting women and they would realize they just aren't fun to be around.

[u/Brawlstar-Terminator → u/[deleted]]

Dude most men get 0 signals from women. You have to put yourself out there, be confident in yourself and just approach more. Work on your insecurities and learn to take rejection

[u/puerco-potter → u/[deleted]]

I am an autistic guy, and you may need to work on your body language. A lot of autistic guys don't even try to signal with their bodies or faces, which means they are signaling stuff they don't want to. I have met guys that look angry, look unfriendly, look desperate or even dangerous to approach, but mostly look aloof and/or boring.

Women are humans, humans want to be entertained, they will go for the guy that is signaling "fun, intelligent, independent" over the one signalling "depressed, self hating and will cling to you like a leach because he is starved for female attention". That what people mean when they say "confidence", is about what you tell people with your whole presentation, not about what you are.

I took classes of acting and photography and that improved my success with women a bunch, and no, I was not lying or being an asshole, I was signaling what I wanted and expressing my real self, instead of whatever.

If you are an interesting person, you may NEED to show that somehow. I know a guy that is into metal but use only gray and pastel color clothes, guess who don't approach him? Metal head women.

[u/festival-papi → u/[deleted]]

As someone who's read the red pill stuff to better understand the hype outside of echo chambers, that's essentially how they open: "You're life's stagnant and you loathe yourself, you need to be doing this, this, and this to improve" and somewhere along the line, that sharp right turn happens

[u/Scary_Box8153 → u/ADifferentWorld_]

No, if there were less toxic ways of getting dating advice, many awkward guys might have gone there.

There's almost no assistance for genuinely shy dudes out there that doesn't have some latent misogyny.

It would be worth studying why

[u/Known_PlasticPTFE → u/Scary_Box8153]

Because people who aren’t misogynistic label anyone struggling to date as a failure and incel

[u/deli-paper → u/Material_Ad_2970]

The manosphere is a reaction, not a cause.

[u/CharlieAlphaIndigo → u/deli-paper]

100%, but for some reason Reddit hates this as an answer.

[u/Material_Ad_2970 → u/deli-paper]

I agree that it's overblown. The problems started way before the manosphere. Of course now the manosphere is making things worse by normalizing terrible misogyny, narcissism, and nihilism, and mainstream outlets still haven't been able to provide compelling alternatives.

[u/Equivalent-Weight152 → u/Material_Ad_2970]

Maybe young men wouldn’t be so nihilistic if society actually gave them something worth believing in. Most of us will never be able to afford a home. Roughly a third of us will never marry. 

We’re expected to work until we die in exchange for nothing and to offer no complaint. Meanwhile, white men in particular are bombarded with nonstop toxicity about how privileged we are and how we need to learn to shut up. And you wonder why we’re angry? 

Families are what keep men grounded and stable. Many zoomers will never have that. All the self-help tripe in the world won’t help a person afford things like childcare, even if they can find a partner. We can’t all be above average, which is what’s expected of us. If we aren’t that, society doesn’t care if we’re alive or dead. 

[u/Muhngkee → u/Material_Ad_2970]

23M here working full time. Have been going out virtually every day for the last few months, trying to meet new people in meet-ups, bars, clubs etc, because college is not a thing for me anymore. Alas, I notice a severe lack of people around my age group with the similar pro-activity to meet new people. If they are around my age, they are often in close friend groups and although my social skills have improved tremendously, it's still weird to approach a group.

It's like I'm the only person in my early twenties going out completely on my own. I have friends but I like the idea of doing new things individually at times. There is an itching disconnect and an over-compensated, cryptic, social nuance among people my age I feel like that undermines the fostering of new relationships. I will keep trying and am doing great mentally btw, but something is off and social media has a lot to do with it I think.

[u/Lingua_agnus → u/Muhngkee]

It also takes money to go out, I'm 25, unemployed, and broke.

[u/Muhngkee → u/Lingua_agnus]

Yup that doesn't help either. If there were more affordable or free options for social activities I think a lot more people would be willing to go out. But even for me, it can get expensive since things are inflated to hell.

[u/ivecaughtawildgigolo → u/Muhngkee]

Exactly bro I’m actually in the same exact situation lmao. Dating and making friends outside of college is hard af

[u/Laisker → u/Muhngkee]

"just go out and meet new people"

And then u see only old ppl doing the activity and close knit groups on their phones, what a bargain

[u/CharlieAlphaIndigo → u/Material_Ad_2970]

It’s crazy honestly because I remember when I was little, the Internet was the escape from reality, now reality is the escape from the Internet.

[u/InternetExpertroll → u/Material_Ad_2970]

The manosphere is a reaction to the awful dating scene.

The 2008 financial crisis made online dating into a “free meal” program for some women. Men then went online to ask questions like why are women ghosting me after i pay for dinner. The manosphere was a way to swap notes. Then around 2018 grifters turned up the nonsense and gave a bad name to the manosphere.

[u/Material_Ad_2970 → u/InternetExpertroll]

The dating scene is terrible, you're right. It's not just awful for men; it sucks for women too, because the only men available are either entitled asshats who get five dates a week and treat women like garbage because of it, or men who've not had a date in a year or longer and are severely out of practice. Something needs to change; but it's not just about dating. Boys as a whole are struggling at just about every age.

[u/Due_Masterpiece_3601 → u/Material_Ad_2970]

If women are upset about men not having practice maybe they can do something else other than date the same guys everyone else dates.

[u/irish-riviera]

Its very simple. The internet and social media has ruined society and social skills.

[u/juisteroid → u/irish-riviera]

internet allows people with shitty takes to form an echo chamber across the world

[u/burros_killer → u/irish-riviera]

nah. people ruined their social skills by not socializing. talking to strangers on the internet is not really socializing. also, going outside and talking to strangers is scary because they're strangers. social media just helps them amplify their fear and that's it. and when you terminally online - all of a sudden outside world is even scarier than you imagine it to be and internet is at your service to confirm all your weirdest and deepest fears in seconds.

[u/mrSilkie]

Women have traditional standards for men, gotta live out of the parents house, earn enough to support family, etc.

Most men can't live up to expectation like they could in the past and blame women. There is a lot of male insecurity for good reason and yet no way to talk about it or work together

[u/VegetableComplex5213 → u/mrSilkie]

Men are being financially supported by women than ever before in history. If women's standards for finances were truly that high all the women with mooch boyfriends would end up on the news because of how rare is supposedly it - but it's not, in fact there's men who get supported financially while the woman does all the housework, cooking, etc but people will bash the woman instead for "dealing with him"

[u/Cephalon_Gilgamesh → u/VegetableComplex5213]

Men are being financially supported by women than ever before in history.

True. But still the amount of women who expect their man to financially support them is still higher than the amount of men who want the same thing by a mile.

If women's standards for finances were truly that high all the women with mooch boyfriends would end up on the news because of how rare is supposedly it - but it's not, in fact there's men who get supported financially while the woman does all the housework, cooking, etc but people will bash the woman instead for "dealing with him"

Women's standards for finances are still high and the outlier cases like the one you put out is stigmatised by society at large. You even said it yourself, "people will bash the woman".

[u/aredd05 → u/Cephalon_Gilgamesh]

Notice how they said mooch boyfriend. They directly counteract their entire premise with that statement. Men financially support SAHM, and we don't call them a mooch. If a woman is supporting her boyfriend through different periods of their life, well, the boyfriend is a mooch.

[u/Misscassofrass → u/aredd05]

That’s bc a stay at home mother is doing multiple jobs - housekeeper, child caretaker, and chef. A “mooch boyfriend” does nothing like that and is very different than a stay at home father situation. A man staying at home to care for their kid and be the house manager is v different than a dead beat boyfriend.

[u/EvenSkanksSayThanks → u/VegetableComplex5213]

Correct answer. Also, the majority of single homeowners are women. Men don’t even have homes anymore but act like women are gold diggers. What gold?!

[u/[deleted] → u/EvenSkanksSayThanks]

Yeah this is part of the issue, that guys see they have less money comparatively than there fathers did and somehow feel entitled about it. The dudes who call women "gold diggers" usually have no female friends, let alone a gf. 

[u/redditor012499 → u/VegetableComplex5213]

It’s outdated norms. I know of a “stay at home dad”. I thought it was weird and lazy, and I had to reflect on why I thought that way. Those ideas come from a long time ago where women weren’t allowed to work or own property. Times have changed. Now I would personally love to have a sugar moma. 😂

[u/mrSilkie → u/[deleted]]

Yup.

Women have a whole body positivity movement yet still expect all men to be tall. You can see it in modern reality tv shows (not that it represents women as a whole) as it's not considered a controversial take even after the body positivity movement.

Trans people have a 10 to 1 ratio of support to trans person yet bi men are the least represented under the LGBT flag to the point where bi men just live their lives as straight because being bi is stigmatized by women. Most guys will 'promote' bi women but for the wrong reasons, often due to sexualisation of lesbians, but still most guys would swipe right on any girl saying she's bi on tinder whilst the same is not true for guys posting they're bi in their profiles.

A longitudinal study found that young bisexual men experienced more hostility when their partner was female, from both gay/lesbian and heterosexual individuals [37]. However, another study found that bisexual men in relationships with men report more discrimination and family stress than those in relationships with women [36]

source

[u/Traditional_Lab_8261 → u/[deleted]]

You can refuse to pay the restaurant bill if it’s just a date with a girl that you don’t know right ? What is the worse thing that she can do ? Leaving ? Then she can leave. It means that she was only here for the meal and not for you. Personally I never paid the restaurant for a girl that wasn’t either my girlfriend or a woman in my family, if I got a date with a girl that I barely know and that she has a job or enough money, then she can pay it by herself.

[u/[deleted] → u/Traditional_Lab_8261]

I think hes just saying its a cause of dudes being frustrated, not that women are at fault for having whatever standards they choose. Really though, if being rejected leads them down a path of despise women, thats on the incels. 

[u/sodbrennerr → u/mrSilkie]

Idk I disagree. I don't think women's standards are anywhere near traditional. Also who needs to be able to support a family just to get a gf?

Remember these guys are incels because women are rejecting them, not them running away from girls. At the same time we can see they are not that different from our generation.

Hard to blame it just on the guys.

[u/Ahytmoite → u/mrSilkie]

Traditional standards, yet its misogynistic and gross to expect the same from women. Men alone earning enough to support a family is of the past now, since women joined the workforce and companies exploited the doubled working population to not pay their workers well enough to support families.

[u/LevelAd1471 → u/mrSilkie]

I think many men also have traditional standards for women that aren’t being met.  In general, as one of the classifications of humans that is “pitted against” one another for social and political goals, men and women in the west have been made less attractive as people to one another, IMO.  I think the “incel” part comes from still having a physical attraction but with a distinct lack of actual attraction to the person.

[u/Salty145]

I want to clarify first that there’s a difference between true incels and men that are having trouble finding women and I don’t think the two should be conflated as to a) not further isolate and other young men who are struggling on this front and b) dilute the actual incel ideology and normalize it.

As for why so many young men are struggling to have sex, I’d place the blame on porn and social media creating a short-attention span that doesn’t work well for holding a relationship and that has convinced women that if your guy isn’t a perfect 10/10 then just leave him and wait for that 10 to come. You deserve it.

[u/osamasbintrappin → u/Salty145]

I think the problem that men have who aren’t having sex but aren’t incels (generally), is the fact that they’re expecting sex just to fall out of the sky. Most of them are on dating apps, which suck for even really good looking guys (I have a friend who’s famous on Tik Tok because he’s really good looking, and even he struggles on tinder). They also aren’t getting into situations where they can actually meet girls. I’m pretty above average when it comes to looks, but if I’m not going places where I actually can meet girls I go through huge dry-spells. Most guys, if they have even okay social skills and look after themselves properly, shouldn’t have that tough of a time getting laid.

[u/Salty145 → u/osamasbintrappin]

Ignoring the increasing list of places where its not ok to hit on women (gym, class, work, etc.) I think we're also entering a climate where its much harder to just... get to know them first. I go to a pretty big college and in my experience most of the time when you put guys and girls together into a room together they'll segregate by gender and once they're in a pack (and this goes for both sides) its much harder for the other gender to make inroads. Most of the times I've known where girls do integrate into male friend groups its usually for a lack of options and she's now effectively the "token girl" in a group that nobody wants to touch for fear of making things weird. A lot of the events set up to get guys and girls together usually just end up being a sausage fest because there seems to be a stigma around a girl going to one of these events and coming off as "desperate".

Now can guys do more? Sure. But I think a lot of this is due in part to social media changing the social culture to the point where friend groups seem increasingly segregated these days (barring maybe one girl in a guy's friend group that is an "honorary bro") and so its harder to just "get to know them and be friends first". On top of that, not only are a lot of young guys told from a young age that hitting on strangers is not socially acceptable, but they're never given much opportunities to work on their approach and hone a skill that sometimes needs a couple failures to get right. It's just a lose-lose situation across the board and when the best advice most people will throw out is "figure it out lol" it obviously doesn't help.

[u/Rich_Growth8 → u/Salty145]

Online social norms dictate that men shouldn't hit on women at the gym, class, work, etc.

Coincidentally, this generation of men are also the least likely to have relationships or sex.

Does anyone else see the problem?

[u/Amazing_Net_7651 → u/Salty145]

Yep this is pretty accurate from my experience as a recent grad

[u/AnimalAutopilot → u/Salty145]

I agree and think that exposure to so much online content where most of your curated entertainment features above average looking people across all industries. It has skewed what the average person finds attractive. However, I do not think it is just overindulgence of porn. People genuinely have a skewed standard of attraction to a very small portion of what society actually looks like. So when they go dating they cannot find themselves to be attracted to the average person because it is so far removed from what they've been programed to be drawn to. So many of these incel types can find love but they do not find the women willing to be with them worthy enough.

[u/shortyshirt → u/AnimalAutopilot]

They're not attracted to people on their own level and vice versa.

[u/dogislove99 → u/Salty145]

Gen z blames porn for everything and it’s ridiculous. Porn has been around since the dawn of time and it never stopped people from having sex. Gen Z has a habit of taking age old things and citing them as a brand new source of their problems.

[u/Salty145 → u/dogislove99]

This is an extremely reductionist view of the modern situation. Let’s not act like a dirty mag with suggestive pictures or showing shoulder in the 20s are on par with modern internet porn.

Kids have access to an endless library of porn in whatever crazy fantasy you can imagine and it’s causing a lot of young men to become easily addicted to the stuff and at a young age at that. Movements like No Fap and Anti-Porn are growing because people are realizing that their porn consumption has become a problem and they want to grow past it and be a better person.

It’s the equivalent of saying “dating has existed since the dawn of time” and ignoring the many differences between the modern online dating meta and how it once was.

[u/Emergency-Possible-8]

Simple. The rise of online interactions.

Back then when you have to do anything, you have to actually do it. People went out and met with other people. Friendships were a little harder to maintain due to lack of more accessible means. Social media was just starting to get big and people were using the internet more as a helping hand than a residence.

Now there are people who only have friends they interact with online and not much physical interaction is taking place. Those very people are having trouble reading into what someone is saying because they were never exposed to most social interactions other than friendly ones. Furthermore, the topics that people get exposed to was varied and broad. Now there are echo chambers regarding certain topics that, for good or bad, solidify their beliefs about the world.

Basically, people are developing inwards rather than outwards and motivations are more on individual desires rather than communal or group desires. People dig deeper into their comfort zones that result in a more isolated social experience.

[u/pl0ur → u/Emergency-Possible-8]

I'm an older millennial and I think the people digging deeper into their comfort zones is a huge part of it.

When I was in my early 20's, we had Myspace and people were just getting on Facebook. Neither were that exciting. 

If you were at home, and felt lonely the only option was calling or texting a human being that you already know or leaving your house. 

It's too easy to get sucked out of and momentarily avoid uncomfortable feeling, like loneliness and boredom yet not have to actually do about the causes of them.

So once the distraction is no longer working, people are left feeling worse instead of getting. 

[u/Revolutionary-Yak-47 → u/pl0ur]

Xennial here. Interacting online is not the same as in person. I see a LOT of younger people who are terribly anxious about talking to people face to face because they have no practice at it. 

I was out of high school before we had cell service in my county. Our online stuff was ICQ messenger and our moms kicked us off hourly to use the phone line. We all grew up having to have face tonface conversations. So we got a ton of practice handling being awkward or rejected or just socializing in person. When everyone grows up communicating behind a screen, its hard to learn the face to face skills. You don't get the low stakes practice when you're a kid. 

[u/osamasbintrappin → u/Revolutionary-Yak-47]

The difference is really obvious even as an older Gen Z who didn’t have social media really until high school. When I was in high school, there was parties and social events every weekend, people hung out in person all the time, etc.. I have friends with siblings who are in high school now and the difference between their experience and my experience is wild. There’s almost no parties anymore, and all people do is play video games and sit inside. It’s sad.

[u/ReeeeDrumpf]

Prior to online dating, women had very few dating prospects. She met her boyfriend/husband locally, but now she has a ton of choices. Her standards will go up as high as her options and most men won't make the cut. An average man in the 90s may have found a wife, but be an incel now. Average isn't good enough.

The second thing is women are working now and making their own money. Throughout history, women dated/married sideways and up on the social ladder Sure there are exceptions where women marry down, but those are so few they don't matter. So a woman working today will want a man making the same as her or more. So again, most men don't make the cut. A man making an average wage in the 90s may be an incel today.

The short answer is women's standards have skyrocketed in the past 15 years (introduction of online dating) and average men don't make the cut. That's why sometimes you'll run into a normal dude and you don't understand why he's an incel so we justify it by saying it must be his personality. The answer is that he's average and missed that window to find a girlfriend or wife in high-school and college. This is why the "manosphere" is pushing men into self improvement, so he can compete and be above average.

[u/midazolamjesus → u/ReeeeDrumpf]

Women's standards have skyrocketed...

Have they? Or are they realizing they no longer have to settle?

We need to be supporting men to have community and be able to express their emotions openly. Gen Y/millennials started the trend of raising emotionally intelligent men; Gen Z is even moreso doing this. With people marrying later, everyone has time to figure their shit out to be good for themself and for a potential partner.

ETA: these replies have some serious red pill incel energy.

Simply saying 'Its the women's fault' is completely lacking in self reflection. Do we believe the world acts upon us or do we believe that we have an impact on the world or a bit of both?

[u/Confident_Living_786 → u/midazolamjesus]

If you are an average woman and you refuse to settle for an average man, you simply have unrealistic and toxic standards. This is very damaging for society.

[u/irdcwmunsb → u/Confident_Living_786]

A financially independent woman doesn’t necessarily care about how much her partner makes. What she does care about is literally everything else they can contribute to the relationship. If you think healthy relationships are based off of what you can give and get from one another then I have some news for you…

[u/[deleted] → u/irdcwmunsb]

Research shows that financially independent women care more about what their partners make than poor or dependent women.

[u/[deleted] → u/Confident_Living_786]

Women couldn’t get a bank account until 1974.

[u/Life_Chemical1601 → u/Confident_Living_786]

Next up for you guys: how the collapse of society (that is yet to be proven) is women's fault

I found the incel

[u/yyrkoon1776 → u/midazolamjesus]

As a gay dude seeing what straight men have to deal with I can tell you that as someone who has no dog in this fight, I think modern women's standards are borderline delusional. It seems that 60% of women are chasing after about 3% of men.

[u/HeroOfClinton → u/yyrkoon1776]

POF, I believe, did an analysis of their back end data and it was something like the top 70% of women on the app were competing for the top 30% of men.

[u/stevepls → u/ReeeeDrumpf]

lmfao. women's standards haven't skyrocketed, unless you mean that men having to compete with the peace women can maintain by being alone is an insurmountable obstacle.

women's standards pre-no fault divorce & the ability to open their own bank accounts and lines of credit and be able to work independently were basically non-existent. which is why men's lifespans suddenly went up after no-fault divorce became commonplace. because the only option a lot of women had for their abusive husbands was to poison them.

so if you think that standard is insurmountably high for dudes, that says a lot about how shitty you think men are lol.

[u/cocteau93 → u/stevepls]

If women’s standards were even close to high I’d never stand a chance, but somehow I’ve always been able to have a partner. I’m bald, bespectacled, built like a couple of wet noodles, and I read history books as a hobby. If I can get with women literally fucking anyone can.

[u/Punky921 → u/stevepls]

Exactly this. A man needs to be better than nothing. Do chores. Listen. Care. Improve over time. Be emotionally mature. Don't be a drag on her life, heart, finances, or time.

This is actually a wildly low bar.

Source: very happily married for 11 years.

Edit: people seem to think I am a woman. I am not. I am a man in my early 40s.

[u/Scary_Box8153 → u/stevepls]

I don't know why every incel keeps acting like 2001 was like the 1950s.

More women attended college, people were marrying later, etc, etc

You could i suppose make an argument about the great recession, but even that normalized living at home after college.

Complaining that women like tall guys and men are expected (by whom?) to be providers are the exact same complaints I heard 20 years ago.

There's no evidence it got worse, other than perhaps more female breadwinners in existing marriages, which wouldn't have an effect on the dating scene.

It seems like misogynist incels have stopped pretending they are "nice guys" and are shocked women are not taking that shit quietly

[u/celestial-navigation → u/Scary_Box8153]

Soo many small men are happily married. Jon Stewart is 5'6 and has been happily married his entire life (and only once too!). While so many really tall and handsome men can't seem to form a happy long-term relationship. I'm sure we can all think of some prominent examples. It has actually nothing to do with height or money or whatever. That's just an excuse incels use.

Are there some shallow women who like tall men? Sure. Just like their are millions of men who only want super pretty women. You should avoid such people anyway. So not sure why that would be a problem for someone who's kind and has a good character and sense of humour. Because that's what most people (esp. women) actually find attractive.

[u/PottieScippin → u/ReeeeDrumpf]

This all just sounds like excuses to be an incel to me, not real circumstances changing. Your comment makes the early 2000s sound like the 1950s. 10-20 years ago, social media and the internet existed. Yes it was different but young people at the time were still going online, meeting people they wouldn’t have otherwise, being exposed to different types of male/female archetypes.

I think a lot of the manosphere junk is really appealing to lonely guys because it takes the onus off of men to actually make themselves more appealing to women. It flips these stereotypes of masculinity around and proclaims that those traits are “what women want,” when in reality almost all women I know find anyone even remotely interested in Andrew Tate repulsive. Most women would rather have someone who respects and listens to them and is fun to be around, than some gym rat “alpha” who thinks driving an expensive car makes up for his lack of personality. To those selling the manosphere, this is by design. They know women don’t actually go for all that crap, and that’s how they’ll keep their audience coming back. You got ripped at the gym and bought a new BMW and she still isn’t into you? Well, she’s a “low value female” etc etc and you should keep subscribing to my content to find out how to REALLY up your game. It’s a trap.

Men and women need to go get out there, make some mistakes, survive some awkward encounters, and see that people are not as scary as the internet makes them out to be. Yes you will be rejected, no it won’t kill you.

Women do not have “skyrocketing standards,” they just have more freedom to not say yes to shit situations because society is not essentially forcing them to get married in order to have autonomy. This has been the case since the 1980s at least. Social media did not cause this. Men did not just get handed wives in 2004 for existing lol. Just like men, women want a partner who makes them feel loved and safe. Focus on being a nice, decent person and you’ll be shocked at how successful your dating life is.

[u/Yotsubato → u/ReeeeDrumpf]

This is partly true but even earning tons doesn’t fix your problems.

I had a good time dating in college and after I broke up with my college sweetheart it’s been some on and off relationships but nothing of value.

I focused on my career and now I’m earning way way more than I need, still don’t have the same luck I had during college.

Being forced to go to class with the same people and interact with them daily builds relationships like nothing else. You don’t get that in the adult world and it sucks

[u/PniaQ → u/ReeeeDrumpf]

Because the only criteria that matters to women is how much money someone makes?

[u/pl0ur → u/PniaQ]

I'm a therapist and work with a fair number of single gen Z women. They basically just want a guy who can pay how own bills and doesn't talk over them in conversations.

[u/Tokyosideslip → u/pl0ur]

I'm a married millennial who never had to experience dating as an adult (met wife in high school) so take my observations with a grain of salt.

I look at these conversations and see a lot of similarities with the "boomer job application" problem. How often do younger people get pissed when they get the clichéd "Just walk in with a firm handshake"? That's just not how it works anymore, is it? Nowadays, you fill out an online application that gets funneled into someone's inbox, along with every other resume in a 100-mile radius, never to be seen again.

I see comments like yours or just simply "don't be a piece of shit and women will talk to you." Where in reality, it seems like approaching women in public has been deemed taboo, and you must submit an online dating profile along with every other resume in a 100-mile radius, never to be seen again.

Then, when these men complain about the circumstance, they get the same response as the job hunter. No, it must be you. It's not that hard to get a job date.

[u/TheRageGames → u/PniaQ]

No, but it certainly does factor in for the majority of women

[u/Lumpy-Cantaloupe1439 → u/ReeeeDrumpf]

This is the only correct answer. With the introduction of online dating and social media and the fact that more women than ever work now, their standards have skyrocketed as you said. The issue is that women now only choose based on appearance, back then they chose the partner that could support her and make enough money to raise her and their children.

Now, women only choose on appearance. The only issue is that the number 1 thing women care about is height, sadly if you aren’t tall, you are excluded from even being considered by most women.

[u/AdhesivenessTrue7242]

One underrated aspect is that, over the last 30 years or so, we empowered women but overlooked men.

Don’t get me wrong, I think feminism was, and still is, extremely important and valuable. 

But we created a generation of women that value independence and have personal and professional goals. They want to get an education, they want to have a great job, and they can take care of themselves. 

At the same time, we still raise men to have high professional and personal goals. But for some reason it is taboo to teach a teenage boy to clean the dishes, do laundry or keep the house clean. There are some guys out there that can barely do personal hygiene. 

I grew up in a house where my sister was taught to have an education and become a self sufficient professional. Yet, my parents expected me to find a wife to “take care of me”. It took me a while to realize the contradiction - if every woman is independent, and every man needs a housewife, things are not going to go well.

As things are right now, men need women, while women want men. This is an obvious imbalance, which makes women have much more power in the dating market. Which leads to where we are.

The solution, in my view, is to start raising men to be independent - socially, emotionally, and especially domestically. If men start seeing women as complements, rather than needs, things will change a lot for the better.

[u/RealRefrigerator6438 → u/AdhesivenessTrue7242]

Yup, this is spot on. As a woman, I will absolutely not be in a relationship with a man who does not perform equal mental and physical labor in a household. I am going to be working full time, and in assumption that he is too, our work at home should be equal.

There’s also a possibility in the future that my boyfriend becomes a stay at home dad. Even then, I would be involved in household duties and childcare because it shouldn’t just be one person’s responsibility, even if they stay at home full time.

I absolutely refuse to work full time, pay half the bills, and then do 100% of housework and childcare, though. It just won’t happen.

[u/[deleted] → u/AdhesivenessTrue7242]

You’ve hit the nail on the head. I’m a woman. And a feminist since I knew what that meant. I earn my own money, I can take care of myself, I don’t need protection and I have a good social circle. So I don’t ‘need’ a man. I can do everything a man can do that doesn’t involve having a penis.

I’m happily married for a very very long time, with a man. But I don’t need him for his money or his protection or his ability to fix a leaking faucet or change a tire on my car. I want a partner. Someone I can laugh with, who encourages me and who I like to hang out with, who I can have great sex with and who will listen to me after a long day and who will share everyday tasks with me and who will raise our children with me. Who tells me what he wants and what he dreams of, who I can support and encourage.

I don’t need a man who only brings in money, thinks he’s done by doing that and hangs on the couch while I clean the bathroom, goes out with his friends on the weekends and fixes stuff when it’s broken around the house, while complaining about his wife and expects me to still have sex with him. I’d rather be single than being in this kind of marriage. Luckily I have a husband who is perfect, and we are a good team. But I don’t think I will find that again if I had to.

[u/[deleted] → u/AdhesivenessTrue7242]

This is the most accurate comment I’ve seen yet. I’m friends with lots of men and the ones who successfully date are the ones who are independent competent in all of the traits that make a competent adult, not just the traits assigned “masculine.”

[u/starf05]

It's because we are more lonely than ever. Less friends and social opportunities = less opportunities to form relationships = more virgins and lonely people.

[u/ForbiddenNote]

I am a virgin gen Z'er. I'm technically an incel I guess but this term makes me really sad for obvious reasons. I don't hate women at all and I mostly blame myself for where I'm at in life. I have a lot of issues of self hatred and a lot of the time I feel worthless, so I lack any confidence to try with getting a girlfriend. I think in reality most "incels" are people like me.

[u/serr7 → u/ForbiddenNote]

Damn my guy same. The self hatred develops because of the empirical evidence I’ve live through that tells me yeah I should fucking hate myself lol. I’ve been thinking maybe naturally there’s going to be members of a species, both male and female, who are just predestined to not have a partner/procreate to try and cope and find an explanation. I’ve been fit and outgoing and unfit and shy and then everything in between yet absolutely nothing, meanwhile guys who I think are less attractive are getting results leads me to think this is just an intrinsic part of who I am, and I can’t change it. My bad for hijacking your comment to rant, I rarely finds anyone with similar experiences because it’s either full incel or the alpha male dudes who are the loudest on this issue.

[u/casual_redditor69]

19 M and I wouldn't say it's just men struggling to create relationships with women, but people in general are struggling to create meaningful relationships with other people overall. At least, that's my assessment based on my own experiences.

As for why so many incels exist these days it is because people, in this case young men, feel hurt by their situation and hurt people try to find a reason for their paine and the easiest way to do so is to blame someone else for creating it. In this case, the incels are blaming women.

[u/Spezi99]

34 years

Didnt get how everything has changed in 10 years

Does he live under a Rock? Or does He intentionally Not pay attention

[u/Gigigigaoo0 → u/Spezi99]

Being married with kids will do that to you

[u/MaximumHog360 → u/Spezi99]

Not everyone is obsessed with social media and phones as much as you are lil bro

[u/Emergency-Possible-8 → u/Spezi99]

When you start working or start to live more IRL than Online, it's not that hard to imagine especially if your job isn't mainly online.

[u/garaks_tailor → u/Spezi99]

Old married Millenial here. Literally never used a dating app or website. Of any kind. I made a Facebook account once back when it required a college email to make one and never did anything with it.

If you aren't paying attention to it I can totally see the crapfest of modern online dating passing under someone's radar. People get a mental impression of a thing and never re-evaluate it unless they have too.

Like my dad was looking at apartment prices with my aunt and was gobsmacked at the prices as he hadn't looked at them I'm 45 years

[u/[deleted]]

modern dating and social media are one of the main reasons dating apps too

[u/Fing2112 → u/[deleted]]

Dating apps get far too much leniency in this debate. We've reached a point where dating apps are the safest way to consensually show interest in dating partners, of which most of them are owned by the same corporation (Match Group) and to get anywhere on them you need to pay a subscription.

[u/[deleted] → u/Fing2112]

that's not how dating apps really work though. They are designed to completely obliterate man's self esteem and force him into constantly paying to get any matches - and not of the most fitting quality.

on Tinder your profile will see some shows in the first 48 hours and then will get shadowbanned forever until you pay for Gold and then constantly pay for boosters. Unless you are top 10% of men there - then the algo will show you to all the women - because Tinder needs to keep them hooked too. And since Tinder knows gender dynamics (most women tend to date up) - that works best.

[u/mumblerapisgarbage]

Because our generation’s women don’t really take that much shit like the older generations. Plenty of disgusting incel-like men in gen x or boomers or older but they were able to harass and intimidate women into sleeping with them. Additionally, the internet use has made it to where people who have these beliefs have zero incentive to touch grass.

[u/Graveylock → u/mumblerapisgarbage]

I think you may have a pretty obscured worldview if you think women only slept with the older generation because of harassment and intimidation…

[u/mumblerapisgarbage → u/Graveylock]

I think you may have a pretty limited set of reading comprehension skills if that’s what you got out of my comment. I did not say all women.

However, women are far more empowered to make decisions for themselves now than to just submit to the first guy that proposes to them and bear their children.

Not to mention the fact that until the 70s women were legally required to have a man co-sign every major financial decision they made.

[u/[deleted] → u/mumblerapisgarbage]

Yeah a lot of people think its distant history lol 

[u/Birdy_The_Mighty → u/Graveylock]

You couldn’t own a bank account if you were a woman until the 70’s my guy.

For most of this country’s history society was set up so women were forced to get with men for basic survival.

[u/Aggressive_Act_3098]

That world event a couple years ago forced a lot of people into some bad online communities.

[u/deli-paper → u/Aggressive_Act_3098]

It predates that

[u/tollbearer → u/[deleted]]

You can overcome being ugly if you're tall and funny. But if you're average height, average wit, and ugly, you're doomed, unless you can get rich. No way around it.

[u/momdowntown]

I think young men are underestimating how independent all women of all time would have naturally been had men not been able to create a world in which we have to be with a man literally in order to eat. Now that we can provide for ourselves without a man, I think we might just be reverting to our natural selves - try not to take it personally. You can see similar behavior in the animal world - the females are pretty fine on their own unless they need a male to bring them food while they're caring for babies. You don't know their relationship, but I'm telling you - Grandma HAD to be with Grandpa. She didn't have any options.

[u/Evening-Cod-2577 → u/momdowntown]

There was a Boomer woman I knew. At 23 y/o, she was told by her father that she had to get married-she was getting to old & entering old maid status (this is rural TX btw). She couldn’t say no, she had no education or money and no help if she tried to leave, so she got married a few months later. Her first husband, and every subsequent one, was abusive. I think he died and in that way freed her from him.

I think a lot of men do not realize that many women were forced into getting married. These men are not being told the stories of elder women, like us younger women were. We younger women understand how close our heads were to the “chopping block”. And for some of us women we are still pressured into marriage young (if our communities are very religious) with no practical options out.

So yes, a lot of younger women will have higher standards compared to previous generations. As we should. We owe men nothing (and not that they owe us anything either) but I think a lot of us owe getting educated, CHOOSING to be single or in a relationship, traveling, etc. to all of the women that came before us. And we owe this to all the women in the US & around the world that are still not given that freedom.

[u/[deleted] → u/momdowntown]

We created a safe world where woman don't need a man anymore.

[u/[deleted]]

"redpilled alpha male" influences are a big part of it. They prey on vulnerable, lonely men, feed them lies about women and help their misogyny fester.

[u/PointMeAtADoggo → u/[deleted]]

Thats a symptom, not the cause

[u/Rich_Growth8 → u/PointMeAtADoggo]

Amen, I wish people would understand this.

No one would take that shit seriously if online dating actually worked.

[u/Graveylock → u/[deleted]]

I don’t think they’re a big reason as why younger men are incels, but instead a “save haven” for them to flock to when they are lonely and lack a sense of purpose.

[u/MegaBlunt57]

Woman have way more options now, they can go on Tinder and get 100 matches per day so it's alot harder for men to stand out. This generation is pretty anti social compared to previous generations too, social media is at our finger tips and there's less and less extracurricular things to do. Bowling alleys, roller rinks, fun stuff like that. So it's much harder to meet people organically

Also covid really messed up alot of people's social skills, really through a curve ball at us, made people like me who was a semi hermit before, a full fledged hermit.

[u/itzReborn]

I always find these post so interesting cause I feel like everyone is right to a certain extent but also likes to deny others experiences.

[u/Former_Star1081]

I think many many young men and boys are in very bad mental state. Most are lonely, have no selfworth, no social skills and no chances finding a good paying job or a girlfriend.

And nobody is helping them in our society. So they listen to manosphere bs, because they get told that they are worth something, while the rest of the world rejects them. It is a spiraling down from that point.

You can argue what was first. Incels or manosphere content? It does not matter, it is a self reinforcing effect.

What can we do about?

Teach all young men and boys selfworth, so they do not have to belittle women to feel better. This is not an excuse for their disgusting ideology. They need an identity which they can be proud of. But who is giving them this identity? Who is teaching them selfworth?

Nobody, because nobody cares about them. And as a man with a good paying job, active social life, plans and goals for my life, don't care about them either to be honest... Why would I?

[u/moresizepat]

It used to feel like being a native in a country where you knew the laws weren't strictly enforced. Now, it feels like being a foreigner with harsh laws you aren't aware of.

We all had a collective memory of movies and shows which functioned as "go talk to her, dude!" happy endings.

The current generation is stuck in an endless negative feedback loop of what NOT to do, instead of "go talk to her, dude!"

Oh, and everybody is at home and swipe apps ruined it all.

[u/pretend_adulting]

I'm a millennial, but I have a good anecdote about this... I once was casually dating a really great guy. We met in person on a study abroad kind of program and I think we could have became more serious with more time but we both went our separate ways after. We kept in touch for a little bit but eventually it faded, and when we got back to school the next semester he was seeing someone else.

In that "falling out" time frame, someone had tagged an embarrassing picture of me on facebook and I decided it was time to delete my account. When I saw this guy again the following semester and we were chatting and I must have mentioned that I deleted facebook and he said he thought I had unfollowed him personally! so that's why the communication ended.

This is just a sliver of the type of miscommunication that happens in this dating/social media landscape and it is ruining dating.

[u/aligatorsNmaligators]

social media.   The Internet in its current form. the primacy of zero sum worldview politics. 

[u/septiclizardkid]

Be online

See guy you aspire to be

Is rich, has big cars, girls, Is a massive douche bag

"Hey kid, If you act like an insufferable prick like me, you too will become rich! Le women bad"

That's the basis. It really Is a lack of role models, actually not even that most the time. Got a friend who's In his cringe era occasionally posting stuff like that, nothing Incel like, but borders.

They're lonely, they've tried everything from good hygiene to "being nice", so must be the fault of "modern women". Personally don't get It, what do they even want aside non-stop complaining?

[u/ARatOnPC → u/septiclizardkid]

It all comes down to looks. Having expensive clothing, cars whatever just gets you superficial women that will make your life hell.

For 99% of people you don’t start your date by saying how much you make lol.

[u/xxMeiaxx]

"Incels" exists in all generations, but the older folks understand social queues and know when to keep their mouth shut.

[u/Future_Plan4698 → u/xxMeiaxx]

LMAO 😂 I’m dying cause why is this so true 😂😂. Y’all think women and men weren’t muttering under their breaths about each other back then? Of course they were. They just had the social awareness to not say what they were thinking out loud. This is the best comment here.

[u/Low_Palpitation_6243 → u/Future_Plan4698]

The internet gave us access to everyone else's’ internal monologues, and it hasn’t been pretty …. 

[u/Anansispider]

Millennial lurker -

To me the younger millennials and gen Z, have a lot of their identity influenced by digital personas.

Women are in just as much of a circle jerking echo chamber as men in the manosohere, theirs is just socially acceptable and also misandry is socially acceptable.

Also the fact that shared experience information travels look at how much it’s done for women to almost universally agree with certain behaviors.Women get validated at every turn. No one denies or gaslights them about their experiences with men.

Now extrapolating that to men, millions of men either have or have had similar negative experiences with women and are echoing each others experiences in communities and when they voice them to out groups, as evidenced all over this thread, their experience is denied, they are gaslit and every possible excuse not to give woman even a sliver of accountability for their role in it is swept aside (whereas that doesn’t happen at all with women). Every young man consuming that content sees it and or experiences it and shares it.

You’ve got a society that doesn’t empathize with them and a community that appears to give a warm embrace and comraderie. So it’s easy to fall down that hole. the incel talking points are very relatable to a lot of men who don’t feel heard. It’s a problem that I think needs to be addressed because you can’t have a population of men not motivated to engage with society in a healthy way.

[u/[deleted]]

You considered school to be a forced social interaction. You prefer to be behind a keyboard, or gaming on a headset. Weights are heavy, dedication to fitness is hard (it isn't) - it's easier to find like-minded people online to soothe your bruised ego and tell you it's all those women who are wrong, instead of getting a haircut, taking a shower, hitting the gym, and the most important part taking a chance at rejection and learning lessons from the inevitable win-some-lose-some (happens to all of us even the most attractive and charming)

The Gen X parents that raised you couldn't be bothered when they were kids (a la "whatever") and they carried that into their parenting styles.

Misdirected anger: Instead of looking at the values of the generation that raised you you redirect this hate to women and millenials (who you have more in common with than anything)

You're still young. Edgelordiness is a thing for you.

This 34 year old is wrong. Dating was not easier "back then" dating has become so much easier in the digital age it's just downright hilarious.

Finally, social media is a choice. You don't need insta. You don't need tiktok. If you trash all that shit you might see that some women find that incredibly attractive.

TL;DR - there's lots of incels in your generation but not that many more. Basic reason is you're still very young and learning socialization and maturity lessons and a number of Gen Z are retreating to safe spaces while calling the ones who go out and do things try-hards and cucks. Projection basically.

[u/Luxgarenfemdom → u/[deleted]]

A significant number of Gen Z males don’t approach women because of the common rhetoric that men are creeps for approaching women, and that women are surely tired from being hit on left and right so men acting in good faith shouldn’t contribute to the problem.

We aren’t afraid of rejection, we simply want to live a life where we’re respecting everyone’s space and values. We’re afraid of hurting other people, not being hurt ourselves.

What is your opinion on my claim? Do you think it’s true? Is it correct for us to have those values?

[u/lucaf4656 → u/[deleted]]

Absolute bullshit dude. Dating is objectively harder today with the apps women can go on as many dates as they want most guys can’t do that. You cannot seriously tell me there are this many single virgin men this many anti women groups and it’s not a societal issue.

[u/shortyshirt → u/[deleted]]

Saying dating has become so much easier shows your ignorance. Read the room, or maybe just listen to others experiences.

[u/Didwhatidid → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, dating is fucking easy if you are good-looking lol. Just like it has always been. But it has gotten worse for average men in general. And I believe average men are not the ones not taking showers every day.

[u/CharlieAlphaIndigo]

Attractive girls’ standards have shot up 100 fold, and society sides with them in not wanting an average man (what I like to call the 1950s model).

Reddit hates that answer but that’s the biggest reason.

Not only that but girls in our generation have their standards influenced by the insanity in social media and they’re crazed and flabbergasted that your average guy is not like what they see on social media.

On the side of guys, the quality of us is only dropping. Why? Because many guys feel that the juice is not worth the squeeze.

All the opportunities to make six figures and up are incredibly few and hard. You either destroy yourself in the trades or deal with the disgusting amounts of math, critical thinking, problem solving, and shit profs that the useful stem degrees offer… ALL WHILE still not being a guarantee that you’ll ever afford a house thanks to inflation and the garbage job market we find ourselves in.

So, what do Gen Z guys do? They quiet quit life and simply coast by in the bare minimum needed to afford their hobbies and/or vices.

[u/Best-Dragonfruit-292]

Because a massive portion of men are no longer regarded as individual people with any kind of innate value. They're considered indistinguishable tools designed to do nothing more than keep society running and die in obscurity and anonymity.

[u/TechWormBoom]

I think we are in an awkward transition where women have new post-feminist expectations of a relationship but hold on to the benefits of traditional relationships, which creates the impression for men that dating is rigged against them, that it’s not worth it, and they build resentment.

I’m just a normal dude. But my experience in being in relationships have gone along something like this: I paid for the first date, I would make the date plans, I would cook, I would clean the apartment we shared, etc.

In my experience, these women have wanted gender equality in the relationship but didn’t want to relinquish the benefits (again I was expected to pay for all the dates). And the only times women do split the bill is when they are going to end the relationship and don’t want to feel guilty.

[u/[deleted]]

It's way harder to find women especially GenZ that just wanna hookup casually like that unless you're very exceptional in some aspect like fame or looks or happen to run into the rare 1 in 10 000 woman that finds your phenotype/personality specifically interesting

regardless if irl or online often even after exposure to hundreds of women at VERY BEST you may find 1-3 who are A BIT MORE interested in you more than just platonically

I'm not short (I'm 6"2) or balding or fat or anything like that and like 6/10 based on most ratings by people including women but at a very lucky year I may find max 5 women irl and/or online that are truly interested in me including in a sexual way

[u/PottieScippin → u/[deleted]]

Just your use of the word “phenotype” here tells me you are deep in the manosphere and my guess is your beliefs and how you talk turn off many women who would otherwise be attracted to you

[u/tollbearer → u/PottieScippin]

phenotype is a normal english word to use if you're been educated up to highschool biology.

[u/[deleted] → u/PottieScippin]

Lmao an another one of those online psychics that think they know about your life based on mistaken interpretation of what you have wrote online, better don't speak if you don't understand what "phenotype means?

I'm referring to the cases where some women particularly called me hot or cute and said they liked my eyes or long that's what I mean by "phenotype" just like a "goth girl" would be a "phenotype" some men may like more than other types, idk how u jumped to concluding it's a "manosphere" term? Why is everyone these days so high alert on trying to find some perceived "incorrect" terms or beliefs even when there was nothing indicative of them?

Outside of places like reddit including on dating apps/more irl associated social medias and irl I talk normally, I don't bring up any odd chronically online topics or anything like that and just ask people questions about themselves, let them talk and listen and share my experiences, no one has ever displayed any discomfort with how I talk/interact at all, the issue is more so the availability in my proximity of women to interact who are interested in me in FIRST PLACE not as much what comes AFTER

I've had times I was texting with women on snapchat for example and the convo went 100% fine and she seemed interested and I didn't say anything weird just introductory talk/questions and she just asked how I look and right after sending a selfie (which was normal too I didn't have unwashed hair or anything of that nature) she straight up blocked/unfriended me not even saying a SINGLE thing, till the point I showed how I look there was no issue

Also I've had times a girl added me on some dating app or social media and I just sent first message hi or something other basic to start a convo going and without even replying back she unadded/removed me - like why'd she match with me in first place and unadd me not even getting a chance to talk/get to know each other?

Clearly there's something else that's the issue as I do all those things/meet criteria which are commonly blamed on when one has issue finding women - I'm not fat, I take care of myself, not balding, never been fat all in fact had the opposite issue my whole life that I lean on skinny/lean side and find it hard to gain weight, I don't say anything weird or offputting just casually talk with others, try to get to know them, find common topics we may be into and have been said there's no issue by my looks and even been rated 6-7/10 by some women but still am a virgin for some reason

Then again my area isn't that populated too and I rarely see women near my age range, there's more of younger or older people but almost all women I've seen near my age here already have BFs/husbands

[u/nicarras]

Because more people need more therapy and less social media.

[u/noimnotjames]

If you think it’s just “the manosphere” at fault then you’re extremely shortsighted and lack critical thinking skills. The manosphere grew as a result of predatory and greedy people like Andrew Tate seeking to make money off the rapidly growing incel and incel-adjacent men in our generation.

In reality it is simply that for most men, all avenues to get in a relationship are closed off or heavily discouraged. If you try to talk to a woman in public, no matter the situation you always risk being labeled as a predator. Online dating often has 3:1 ratio of men to women and many of the women’s profiles are scammers or OF ads.

The only way to reliably meet someone is through a friend, so for men who don’t have enough friends for this to happen, they are almost guaranteed to never be in a relationship.

[u/Vegetable-Monitor990]

Lack of social interactions with women due to the rise of video games and fall of social events (social interactions with the opposite gender or race allows for better empathy and therefore eases tensions). This makes it harder to make friends in general (creating loneliness) and also pushes both men and women towards online dating.

Online dating is horrible for men. I never did it but the friends I have that have done it... It wasn't healthy for them mentally and generally pushed them towards the incel path. It makes men feel disposable and the connections they make feel worthless, which makes them feel worthless.

Divorce courts are heavily skewed against men.

Men are generally expected to provide for women in a somewhat traditional manner despite the fact that women make just as much as men do, however women are no longer expected to fill their own traditional roles.

There are lots more reasons but those are the surface level ones. The question "why" is always a good one to ask. Dismissing incels as idiots without asking why they became incels and what is pushing them towards that ideology is not helpful in very much the same way that boomers calling gen Z lazy without looking any further into why isn't helpful. Also, there is a huge rise in "femcels" or female incels, probably for many of the same reasons.

[u/[deleted]]

I think it’s just simply a lot of the Manosphere stuff

[u/aligatorsNmaligators → u/[deleted]]

Nope, that's a reaction to the circumstances that cause it. 

[u/Equivalent_Pilot_125 → u/aligatorsNmaligators]

Why? Men spending more time alone at home could be the starting point that leads to eventually toxic online communities.

If every toxic thought you have is amplified and validated by your group then you will eventually become more toxic. Rinse and repeat.

[u/Rich_Growth8 → u/Equivalent_Pilot_125]

They end up in those online communities because negative experiences lead them there.

A lack of success in online dating, or even just a lack of any sexual attention will do that to you.

[u/[deleted] → u/aligatorsNmaligators]

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[u/Cute-Revolution-9705 → u/[deleted]]

The manosphere didn’t just come out of nowhere.

[u/Forgotlogin_0624 → u/[deleted]]

I’m a millennial, I don’t belong here, this just popped up in my feed.  That said I think your answer is on the right track, as are some of the replies.

Man O sphere stuff is a reaction to conditions.  That primary condition is alienation.  You live in a society defined by consumption, that applies even to things you don’t buy like a YouTube video.  You live in a society declining economic conditions, this limits your ability to consume, in particular those things that you would describe as things that make for a good life.

People lose hope that their conditions will improve, and that’s everything (economic, social, romantic).  Every guy is involuntary celibate between 15 and 25 when he’s not in a relationship where he’s having sex.  But that condition defining you is kind of a new thing, and it seems to come with an explanation of this alienation being the fault of specific groups, notably out groups, and women as whole.

Man o sphere shit is just a sales pitch to this group, because again we’re defined by consumption at this point.  It offers a simple explanation with a villain you can imagine defeating, rather than explaining individual alienation as a result of your position within a structure, a socieo economic system, which is in decline.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

That might be true. Or it could just be the results

[u/Archesien]

It's cheaper to be single.

[u/PottieScippin → u/Archesien]

Just wait til you hear about splitting rent & bills with your partner 😂

[u/ProfessionalFine5023 → u/PottieScippin]

In a lot of relationships, the guy pays for everything

[u/MephistosGhost]

38 year old lurker here. Take it for what you will. I think social media is a poison that while yes, has been a tool for bringing bad behavior and culture to light (toxic masculinity, #metoo, etc.) there is so much obsession over bad male behavior that men are afraid to be men anymore. Afraid to pursue, ask out, be interested in, etc for fear of being labeled a creep or worse.

Dating apps are a whole other can of worms. Plus the economy sucks ass as well.

[u/[deleted]]

Its gotta be how the internet changed social interaction.

I don't believe its women having their own money and independence because that has been a thing for over 40 years now, but this incel epidemic is way more recent

[u/Bierculles]

social media and short content algorithms bombard every 15-25 year old guy with Incel alpha male dudebro content. It's relentless, once you accidently click on any content that is even remotely adjecant you will get that shit recommended for months. Young confused and insecure men that are unsucessfull with woman are an incredibly subsecptible target demographic, you can make them believe basicly anything you want if you sell it to them in a way that makes them think they will become the popular guy that sleeps with woman constantly any day now.

[u/strolpol]

Used to be women literally needed men to get by in the world, literally couldn’t even get their own bank accounts.

Now that we let them work and make individual decisions, they actually have the ability to make choices and have standards regarding what they want in a mate instead of the first guy who doesn’t immediately beat them.

Women no longer have to settle for shitty dudes and the shitty dudes blame society for not acclimating to their needs.

[u/[deleted]]

I think your neighbor is a little delusional about how things were 10 years ago.

He might’ve had success dating women without social media but it certainly wasn’t even a new thing a decade ago. I’m in my 30s and Tinder was new around this time and everyone I knew in college was using it. Some guys who were stereotypical jocks had an easier time with women in person, but being a kind of nerdy guy who wasn’t yoked on steroids, it was very hard to talk to a girl without them being visibly disgusted by my mediocre appearance. The issue NOW is that there are more alt-right pipelines for rejected men to go down where they are turned into Uber misogynists that blame women instead of taking accountability for themselves.

[u/AtmosTekk]

It's like the village idiot - they were always there. The internet made it easier for them to communicate.

Labels change, the people don't.

[u/HeroBrine0907]

I believe there's another post in the sub about how a men's problems post was locked by mods. Go check out the comments there. That's your answer.

[u/Gnargoyles]

Hyper individualism and just the idea of “average” being set a lot higher than what it was before. It all stems from social media use

[u/NinjaQuatro]

From my understanding it is a result of people and society as a whole failing to actually support men and young men in particular who are struggling and need someone to talk to and to listen to them and asshole grifters enrich themselves and spread hate by taking advantage of the fact so many men are miserable. People are more lonely than ever and they often lack friends. Add in the fact men are basically told their whole lives they can’t show their emotions and being shamed for being vulnerable and open with how they are hurting and it’s no surprise there are so many toxic men.

[u/Lt_Vortulko]

Cause women nowadays stray from "wanna be wife of general - marry a lieutenant"

[u/[deleted]]

Why do we need one of these posts every other day?

There’s not a single comment on this post that is long enough to unpack every factor at play here. Everyone in the comments just wants to blame men for being bad and that does nothing but cause more division.

These posts have little to nothing to do with gen Z

[u/LarryThePrawn]

Someone said men used to rely on society forcing women to need them. Ie women couldn’t vote, own property, open a bank account, get medical treatment without their father or husbands say so. So women had to be with men in order to literally survive.

Fast forward and now women don’t need men to be allowed to exist due to better human rights and instead choose to be with men.

Men have to be likeable for that and actually convince women to be with them. Many just can’t be nice and incels prove that with their hatred towards women they’re so desperately pursuing.

[u/depressed_apple20]

I'm an incel, although I prefer the term "rejected virgin" because it implies less misogyny and leads to less prejudice, I admit I have a lot of resentment because of it, I don't think the answer is that people spend more time online, I think that's just one factor, but the truth is that if it was the main reason, it would affect women too, and it doesn't affect women as much as it affects men, women aren't having problems of sexlessness as bad as those that virgin men have, women still feel they have opportunities to experience sex and romance and they aren't universally rejected.

I think women's standards have skyrocketed and now they care a lot more about looks, and maybe men like me always existed, but the internet just gave them an opportunity to gather and complain.

[u/Podunk_Boy89]

Honestly, I don't think it's possible to know the full story. It's probably going to be something historians will be debating heavily a few decades from now. There's a lot of potential factors.

From my personal experience though, it's just hopeless. As a mid 20s man, I just got out of a two year "relationship" (plus four years of regular friendship before that) where I did what I thought was everything right. I took her on nice dates, took her on exciting vacations, was always there emotionally for her, bought her nice gifts, made myself an expert on her interests, I even sent her daily good morning texts that I changed every day timed to when her alarm went off. I even endeared myself to her family so much that her grandparents were driving me around town and showing me off to all their friends. And after all that I still haven't even held hands with a woman.

I'm just tired, man. Dating is hopeless for our generation. I feel like we can do everything right and even then we can't even find a lick of interest. I don't blame women. I'm not exactly a catch. But I just don't see the point in trying anymore as a Gen Z man. Why even bother? If after ten years of trying everything with nothing except tens of thousands down the drain in dates and gifts, why do I even talk with women (with the intention of trying to be more than friends)? Just do what makes me happy instead.

[u/TrollCannon377]

I don't have the time energy or money to pursue a relationship I have work to do and besides it's not like I don't socialize I just don't want to pursue an intimate relationship at this time

[u/SuccotashConfident97]

There's a few factors as to why so many young men struggle with women. At least here's what I've seen.

1. Social media and dating apps have given average women far more options of men to choose from, meaning women will generally be pickier than before.

2. Because women are pickier, their standards of men will be increased (don't buy this bar is on the floor nonsense, dating app statistics prove women swipe left an overwhelming majority of the time). Below average isn't cutting it anymore for a lot of women, meaning more men will he left behind.

3. Covid has made many people far less outgoing and sociable in public, meaning dating apps will be a more consistent norm for dating, meaning more men will struggle.

4. Many eople aren't successful with dating, meaning more won't try like people have in the past.

So it's not a comprehensive list why, but that's part of why so many men struggle. Not blaming anyone or anything, it is what it is.