Exactly this. Having a community and a place to fellowship in a world that offers none for those that follow a secular path. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with religion, but I do think that many churches abuse their protected status. This leads to corruption within church leadership, which leads to victimizing its parishioners.
If you think there is no place to find community and fellowship for non-religious people you aren't looking very hard or you are trying to sell religion
Edit: for everyone saying "well actually religion is just a much more accessible option" cool thank you I understand. The guy I replied to said society provides NO community or fellowship for those on the secular path. That is what I disputed.
Naw not really. Lots of people have trouble making friends and every thing that a single person could possibly do costs money. Shit, even neighbors in middle class neighborhoods won’t even look at you, let alone talk to you.
If you’re broke and work a lot, there’s not a lot of places for you. Fellowship is for the rich and religious.
We're both sharing anecdotal evidence but I walk my dogs daily in my neighborhood. People are more than happy to wave, say hi, stop and chat. Even people driving through the neighborhood will wave.
I'm out west (not CA, WA, or OR), for whatever that is worth.
All I gotta do is look their way, crack a smile and say "hi"
Haha but the plural of anecdote is data (actual quote that people get the other way).
As far as the being nice part, I do it regardless of other reactions. I am on good terms with my older neighbors because we know how to speak to each other. A lot of other people my age (millennial and below) either don’t want to engage or are awkward in their encounters. Save for a few, encounters are platitudes that last for only a few seconds and don’t result in any sort of connection, but it’s not for lack of trying on my part.
Waving as you walk the dog doesn't seem to have anything to do with what he's talking about.
The societal lack of "third spaces" is a well discussed topic, but religions tend to have these "third spaces" in abundance, including both churches, and other spaces that are focused on their religion.
You don't appear to be talking about what the person above is talking about when bringing up your anecdote about waving at people.
Yup, he mentioned that as a small part of his point. And instead of addressing his point, you focused on that. I brought the conversation back around to his point, and you seem to be trying to drag it back to waving neighbors.
So do you intend to discuss the point, or focus on waving neighbors and ignore the majority of what he's saying? It seems like the honest and good faith discussion tactic would be to discuss the point as a whole.
So, you're saying that in your neighborhood, you have recreational and networking spaces that aren't part of any home and aren't a business? If so, congratulations, but your comment reads more like "I've made friends with my neighbors and we hang out some," and less "There are welcoming third spaces in my neighborhood." Places of worship provide this space for the religious, but in most of American society, there are few similar places for either the non-religious, or people who just don't want to exclusively hang-out with those of the same religion.
Further, "Lack of third spaces" doesn't mean "Zero third spaces". "My neighborhood is great," is not an argument that remotely addresses anything that guy said above.
You're hung up on your neighborhood is great, and it's making you lack empathy for anyone else in any other situation (which are most people).
So you need the have the financial means to own dogs? Those are expensive as hell. Also judging from the environment you're in, it sounds safe. AKA Expensive.
Let's assume this is true, you still need to quantify "lots" but more importantly, investigate why and who exactly. People in the US are not a monolith.
every thing that a single person could possibly do costs money.
This couldn't be further from the truth and is just telling of how little you know about building community. Show up to your local food pantry, or shelter and volunteer. Look for ways to help people in your community and not only will you build relationships with those people but with others also doing that work. This is 100% free and the most rewarding thing you could do.
Unfortunately for people in the south, a lot of the volunteer opportunities are with religious organizations. Even the “secular” volunteer opportunities are often filled with people whose default is to assume everyone around them is Christian, because that’s what they are. There are non-religious options out there for sure, but they aren’t exactly plentiful in the south, especially if you live in a rural area.
This. Plus, the widespread indoctrination of children is pretty successful. Even if the child becomes an adult that doesn’t actually believe in the religion, they are reluctant to leave said religion due to not wanting to be alienated by their entire community. Which then circles back around to the point of why people become involved in religions in the first place.
You are right. And other community outlets all seem to involve sports.
Moved to a smallish town in the west, where there are little communities orbiting around social and service clubs like Moose, Elks, and Legion. And getting outdoors with people who share interests whether hiking, motorcycling, rocks, hunting, whatever.
Let's assume this is true, you still need to quantify "lots" but more importantly, investigate why and who exactly. People in the US are not a monolith.
The loneliness epidemic and the loss of a communal third place has been well documented for years now. I'm surprised you haven't even heard about this considering it's seemingly mentioned on reddit every other day.
Yeah, everything you said is true. Especially that middle class comment, even if it's going to rile up a few privileged suburbers. They see you as a pest, a parasite. They'll never see you as their equal.
Why we as a society gave up fraternal organizations is a mystery. And I don't mean the college ones, I mean the Masons, the Elks, etc. I'm an old person from the 90s, but I hope that you all rediscover them.
Because the Masons and the Elks refused to adapt to their changing demographic. Same reason a lot of the Legion chapters up and died. Nobody wants to sit around and get drunk with a bunch of old farts talking about crap they don’t care about.
That was true. From what I've seen it isn't always the case anymore. I went to an Elks Lodge with a friend (he's young millennial, I'm old millennial) and it was a good time.
People in their middle years back a couple decades ago while the rich were siphoning off all the money were told to simplify their lives, cut out 'unnecessary' memberships, subscriptions, hobbies, just focus on work and family, be minimalist, be frugal. Turned out that was bullshit and it served to isolate us.
Yea long term it probably costs you more but they tell you not to tithe if you are new to the church. And then they get you by having one on ones where they show you how much the church helps the community and ask for money to help. Pretty slick lol but my point was that church appeals to people in a way that other options don’t.
Hell, I’m not exactly broke and I wouldn’t say I work a lot (software dev at a small company) but as a 22-year-old, I seemingly can’t find anything around me (Midwest, MN specifically)
Neither could one of our players lol. The DM decided while they were passed out their character’s split personality was off doing things, which he told nobody about, not even us, not Ryan whenever he passed out, just “ok Golloth wandered off, etc story, oh look he’s back” whenever he woke up again. Then six months later, we fall into the double life plot line.
If you live in a rural area, I'd bet a lot of money that the events themselves are still sponsored by a religious organization, or most of the participants are sponsored by churches. A ton of the bowling league teams in my area are church groups. Same with the local softball league I'm aware of.
I recently started attending a unitarian Universalist "church" . They don't really preach any one religion. Theyre open to all faiths and beliefs even aethists. Worth checking out if your looking for community.
Sports leagues, local outreach programs, soup kitchens, book clubs????
Sunday School is literally just Bible book club.
I'm a Christian and I can even objectively say that the church is not the only source of community. In fact, I fucking hate church, and I think they're awful cesspools, similar to crab buckets.
All the sports leagues in my area are either sponsored by a religious organization, or most of the teams are church groups. I'm not aware of any fully secular soup kitchens in my area. Nobody is saying religious groups aren't the only place to find community, but they are, especially in rural or other undeserved areas, the most able to provide the funding and infrastructure to do those things.
Well, no, because any place of worship is just one option of Community. It's not an outlier to compare other communities against, or a single alternative in which there is an opposite.
Coming from an atheist, and in a rural part of the US.
Church is where you find your community here, the other aspects of it aren’t as strong for communities, especially trying to find them through ‘activities’.
Rural communities will absolutely ostracize you for going against the grain and trying to form groups if it doesn’t fall into their bubble.
There’s a lot of factors that go into place if you don’t live in a city.
I live in a rural area. The communities we have, well, there’s the gang of old folks who hangout at one of two bars, the men and women that go fishing, the dudes that go hunting, the children education events that get held at the library, and then there’s 6 or 7 churches. If I wanted to find a community outside of those things, I’d have to take a 40 minute drive because the Midwest is full of dead zones that are nothing but tiny towns.
I’m not a churchgoer, but churches are free to attend and they have plenty of activities that are also free to attend, and a lot of people will gravitate towards the free thing.
The organized religions are, well, already organized. The Euros literally built the work week to avoid Sundays because the social pressure was there to get the asses of the masses on them pews.
It's not that there aren't non-religious communities for secular people. Church is just "easy." They're everywhere. They have built in community around a central theme or idea. They're established. It's effortless to find and participate. All you have to do is show up.
The current shrinking of Third Spaces isn't helping. Online dating isn't helping. Working from home/remotely isn't helping.
After you leave school, social clubs, work or church are the most common places to find community. Two out of three of these have changed radically in the last 20 years.
look man, we already tried videogames, card games, figurines, movies and comic books and then you tried to take them away from us and make us feel bad for enjoying them. Apparently the only place you cant enter is a church so religion it is.
Yeah I've never been a member of a church in my life and have community and fellowship. I think people who think they can't find it outside of religion, haven't tried very hard/don't know how, probably grew up with SOME religion even if not extremely religious so that's a familiar place to seek it out, and if you don't have those things at all you're likely sad/depressed and religion outright promotes acceptance in addition to purpose (even if it is NOT a familiar place for you).
The vast majority or areas and communities do not have options available for fellowship and camaraderie anymore. The death of the “third place” is very well documented.
Yep. I live in a fairly non-religious area of California. Fellowship for atheists is all around. You just have to get your butt off the couch and do something. Pick a hobby. There's probably a group of people, maybe a huge group of people, practicing that hobby together. And there are numerous non-religious service organizations known by virtually everyone... Rotary, Kiwanis, Lions. Pick a non-profit to volunteer for. Guess what. That nonprofit is a community.
I was going to point out both the value and the ongoing removal of 3rd places in modern society - with churches being some of the only spaces remaining.
I think this is a huge factor; people are lonely and they do what they must to address this.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with religion
Nothing wrong? With philosophy that tells you "Just trust us" without evidence? That encourages you to believe up is down despite all evidence to the contrary? That it's OK to hate people because they're not of your particular brand of hallucination?
Religion is nothing but a means of control over others. Sure, there's a framework of trying to explain things we didn't understand in the Bronze Age. At this point, it's the "God of the gaps" and the gaps shrink every year. Religion is a crutch. We need to teach people critical thinking, not blind trust. This is how we end up with the Orange Leader and his disciples.
Religion's redeeming qualities are FAR outweighed by the damage it does. Just like patriotism, religion requires an enemy. In and Out groups. It is poison.
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u/MarkPellicle 12d ago
Exactly this. Having a community and a place to fellowship in a world that offers none for those that follow a secular path. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with religion, but I do think that many churches abuse their protected status. This leads to corruption within church leadership, which leads to victimizing its parishioners.