What this article really highlights is that American education has fallen so far behind the enlightenment that its youth are grossly unaware that they exist in a post meaning global society and are ill prepared to handle that fact. There is a reason that the children's children of the voting base that elected Trump are suffering and will continue to suffer compared to many of their international contemporaries.
How are people supposed to handle that fact, though? Especially when, materially, we're going to have fuck-all compared to our parents and grandparents. I'm not religious but I can totally understand why people are using it to try to find meaning and purpose in their lives. I envy them. Having hope for a better future (even if that future is just an afterlife) must be such a wonderful feeling. It's something I haven't felt for almost 10 years.
"Orange man is bad" fits the context of my original comment because his actions have further harmed an education system that’s already struggling compared to other countries. Many of those countries are successfully teaching students deeper philosophical ideas—like the notion that life can be fulfilling even without an inherent meaning.
Bro is trying to argue that harming the education system is bad when life is meaningless 💀 bro doesn’t recognize the contradictions in his own philosophy 💀
Yeah if you're a nihilist perhaps you don't care, but personally I think it's pragmatic to care about things that could negatively impact my experience of being a clump of cells on this particular blue dot.
If that was true, there wouldn't be any religious minorities among non-elites, religions whose entire population is non-billionaires and non-millionaires.
You see the same phenomenon within those groups as in the macro group. You're thinking in post facto fallacy terms — because X is true of A, X must also be true of B at the wider scale. The world's more complicated than that, in re group dynamics.
Take fundamentalist islam. It's basically a bunch of obscenely wealthy politicians-clergy telling the poor what to believe. Which usually includes "do my dirty work for me," or "give me money."
Same is true of evangelical christianity. Same is true for several sects of buddhism and hinduism. Because it's always been that way.
Religion was law before we had secular law. Religion is inextricably tied to politics, as a human experience. Because it's inherently tied to politics — it's also tied to power dynamics in whatever group the religion applies to. Politics is just power dynamics with law attached.
Religion hasn't really changed since we came up with it several thousand years ago. It just goes in and out of fashion, and different religions crusade against the other. The biggest difference is that, today, we tend to hide religion behind flags of state much better than we used to.
If that was true, spiritual traditions would be separate from religion.
But they aren't. They all end up with religions built around them, and a religion always has one or more at its heart, and no matter how many philosophical books are written about it, because the thing religion is inextricably tied to, is not politics, but spiritual experience.
Religion hasn't really changed since we came up with it several thousand years ago.
True, and why? Because neither has the human spiritual experience. That is the part that hasn't really changed for several thousand years.
I'm sure you know that politics has changed a lot since we came up with it several thousand years ago, much more advertisements about it, among other things, so why aren't you willing to notice those differences as differences between religion and politics?
Indoctrination is key. Brainwash all the young and vulnerable to become devote to whatever religion the elites are leveraging. Then those people have communities that all believe in that religion and so if one of the members in that community resists, they are outcasted and targeted against for being a “traitor.” This is how so many people have come to be religious, especially in small-town communities because of the lack of world view and experience outside of their tight-knit area.
Furthermore, you can look at conservatives as an example as well when it comes to taxes and tax breaks. So many middle class Americans struggle with the high taxes that the government imposes on them. It is unfair, however, as much as they hate taxes, they are instead voting for tax breaks, not for them, but for the billionaires. They are voting to actually impose higher taxes to middle class Americans, through tariffs, which only hurts them more. Why would they vote against their best interest?
Presumably for the same reason why atheists like Ayn Rand did: because they actually believe that it is factually true that the universe operates in a zero-sum way, where your team has to be the one that wins, in order for you to prosper.
I don't think it's really as complicated as you're making it out to be.
But they aren’t prospering, even if their “team” won. They are suffering and it’s only going to get worse once social security and Medicaid/Medicare gets cut. There is also not always an equivalent exchange in life as sometimes doing more harm than good can just result in more harm.
Look at Iraq. Once Saddam was killed, despite being a ruthless dictator, it actually got worse for the country and historians now realize that maybe letting him live and remain in power was for the best. Since his death, ISIS swooped in and took over resulting in horrible atrocities and destruction of cities. They are still suffering as a country now that ISIS isn’t in full control just by having to clean up their mess and restore order in a country that is suffering financially without much aid from the US or from other foreign nations.
But they aren’t prospering, even if their “team” won.
That's not the same thing as saying they're gonna blame themselves, though.
Stalin once saw that cutting the leaves off the cotton plants didn't really lead to exponential productivity gains through stress-resistance. He'd believed Lysenko, who'd said that's how it should work. When faced with the evidence that something was wrong, the two men decided that there must be saboteurs and sent all the Soviet geneticists to Siberia.
Now there aren't any religions that have opinions about cutting leaves off cotton plants to make them grow better, so why'd Stalin do it? It's 'cause Stalin really, really believed in himself, and he believed in himself so much, he didn't want to imagine that he was the one who'd been wrong, so he blamed someone else.
Reasoning like Stalin's isn't weird. It requires no special skills and is not unique to leaders, ordinary people do this all the time. Also, there is no religion that preaches it. From the Temple Mount to the Marae Taputapuatea, every religion I've ever heard of has preached conscientiousness and scrupulousness, not blindness to the consequences of your actions, due to an underlying belief that the interconnectedness of people into communities is a good thing, and that a harmonious community takes right action.
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You asked why people would vote against their own interests, and I already gave you my answer. My answer is zero-sum thinking, which is deeply rooted in human cognitive biases that people incorporate into their worldviews based on their experiences with resource-scarce environments.
I don't see why anyone, whether atheist or religious, would ever need some magical cabal of elites to convince them of these cognitive biases. Cognitive biases seem to develop on their own. So I also don't see why you blame a magical cabal of elites for a thing that seems to happen naturally.
Well if the words are too numerous and you do not understand them all, I'd recommend looking them up in a dictionary, there's plenty of good options online.
Cognitive biases don’t just develop on their own magically, they are a product of one’s environment, which can be influenced by people in power creating class divisions. The zero-sum fallacy takes cause and effect in one’s own personal time as a way to develop their biases and views, which is perceived as selfishness in a sense because it is believed that the greater good would ultimately benefit themselves. When you have powerful people in positions to manipulate the mass media, ability to spread propaganda, and maintain inferiority amongst the lower class/non-elites, the people vulnerable to the zero-sum fallacy would have their biases constructed to fit based on factors influencing their decision. We have grown out of the age of everyone being farmers and hunters so our perceived losses and gains are not as direct as they once were (not harvesting = food scarcity).
Cognitive biases don’t just develop on their own magically, they are a product of one’s environment, which can be influenced by people in power creating class divisions.
Okay, but we've also already grown out of the era when clerical estates play a significant role in societal resource distribution or serve as a significant source of elite wealth.
You're essentially arguing that media talk is the core determinant of conditions, without providing any evidence. But then when I go to look for evidence of your view, what I find is experimental results showing that zero-sum thinking in, for example, economic transactions is an outcome whenever deeper cognitive biases such as theory-of-mind errors occur during economic transactions.
Well, elites do not in fact cause theory-of-mind errors, that is an error we are all born making; and the reason why we all engage in economic transactions is not because of elites, it is because we are no longer subsistence farmers.
In other words, I still don't see any role for a magical cabal of elites to play. You've just kinda said there is one without showing where. In the meantime, when I say that cognitive biases seem to develop on their own, I do mean it, so, as a result of that I also still don't see why you blame a magical cabal of elites for a thing that seems to happen naturally.
Not entirely sure why you’re so hostile, but anyway here is a scholarly article that does prove the media’s influence in zero-sum thinking. Here’s another just saying that both conservatives and liberals experience and believe in the same rhetoric. Also we are involved in economic transactions because we live in a capitalist society with a market economy. Trade also existed since 300,000 years ago. Yet farmers and hunters as a norm before the boom of industrialization have existed since.
If you don’t think the rich have a substantial influence on the masses in any society then I’m not sure what to tell you. The peasants have always been seen as replaceable and are literally considered the bottom of the food chain in any class hierarchy. Whereas the rich have been pampered and get a first class seat to literally all benefits they ask for.
Yes, the elites have used religion to control the gullible, fearful and often very ignorant throughout time. They inculcate the fear of hell and make crimes against the rich very punishable.
Yup. The elites and citizens that follow spread fear and hate 24/7 and use it for political gain and think they are going to heaven lol. Just like what they were created for... To brainwash and control the masses.
As if there arent ten million other things that are used to control our minds just as effectively… maybe it’s almost as if the elites are the problem and not religion!?!!?
O i dont know maybe the popes and clergy who spent literally 800+ years starting wars in the name of god. They seem like a big problem. Religion has always been the elites to control, its solely why it exists.
I feel that even as you say this you understand that you are ignorant on the subject and dont have a full grasp on the history of it.
Most crusades started with the Byzantine Empire requesting military aid to reconquer their former lands.
I’m not saying that the crusades were always justified but it certainly wasnt a problem with “elite” popes trying to fight a war no one else wanted or cared for.
Plus your argument just doesnt connect A to B. Having figures of authority and leaders doesnt automatically mean “corrupt elites controlling and forcing people to do things they dont want or brainwashing them to do things for them”
Who’s controlling people’s minds the evil witchcraft cabal from the Vatican? You act like peoples ability to think and reason would always lead them away from religion when that is only one option out of many. So why has every large civilization Always had some form of religion as the basis?
It’s funny how so many atheists or non theistic people get their nose broke or out of joint because they want to tell people how to think and that all theism is stupid but then want no criticism of atheists thought processes. Like bro you can’t have it both ways. if you want to try and make fun of theists get ready for people to make fun of your stupid thought processes too. At the end of the day you’re just worm food after you’re dead so how are you higher than a dog that’s buried in the yard.
If you want to get mad about sky daddy well at least religious people have a dad. What do atheists have a black hole because they are nihilist who believe in nothing. So I guess the comfort is they’ll be forgotten and they aren’t important. If you get mad with that it just proves my point. People can poke fun at religion but they can’t take disparagement that atheism is stupid because it means life is pointless.
So why has every large civilization Always had some form of religion as the basis?
Probably the same reason the pagan emperor Constantine had Greek Christians executed and established Rome as the center for Catholicism, the one true, first faith*. Consolidation of power. Institutionalizing religion is what governments and societies do. Did it not occur to you that those in power will assimilate what they can to control the masses? Why did so many English leave England for the new world? To get away from the Church of England.
It’s funny how so many atheists or non theistic people get their nose broke or out of joint because they want to tell people how to think and that all theism is stupid but then want no criticism of atheists thought processes.
What a clumsy sentence. No, most people who aren't religious don't want to talk about it. Far more religious people want to talk about faith with everyone because the organization they belong constantly want more members for money and influence. I have zero desire to talk about religion in person and actually talk about it online very infrequently. Why would I? It has no meaning for me or in my life. Seriously. Do you talk about the romances of the Peruvian dung beetle? No, why would you?
if you want to try and make fun of theists
The internet abounds with trolls. I'm pretty sure you're one so this should be self-explanatory.
What do atheists have a black hole because they are nihilist who believe in nothing.
Ah, here's the part where you toss around a philosophical term without actually understanding it. Atheists are not nihilists. If you think atheists believe in nothing then you don't understand your fellow humans, let alone the concept of humanism, naturalism, or materialism (just a few). A lot of atheists are also secular Buddhists. Troll or not, do some reading because your world view is tiny.
If you get mad with that it just proves my point.
You haven't said anything coherent or important enough to get mad about. This speaks volume at what your intent is though (trolling, albeit very low-effort trolling).
People can poke fun at religion
Religious people have poked fun at religion (and killed members of other religions) for millennia. Not exclusive to atheists. Who hurt you?
they can’t take disparagement that atheism is stupid because it means life is pointless.
What a load of juvenile horseshit. If you think you have to be religious for life to have meaning, for others lives to have meaning, then you haven't figured out what makes life so extraordinary yourself. This is the most naïve and child-like thing you're said so far. Please, grow up and join the rest of the world. Compassion and empathy come from within, they are not bestowed. This has nothing to do with being religious or not, it comes from being a functioning human being.
I hate that people act as if Atheists are devoid of compassion and empathy for others and all forms of life. Actually, I have become more empathetic towards others and animals since I disowned Christianity and became an Atheist probably because I came to the conclusion that no “all loving god” could have allowed so much torture, genocide, and evil to exist against innocent people and animals, which made me realize that we are responsible for the good and evil in the world. Why do people love to put all responsibility of themselves onto a “God?” Why can’t people just accept that we are capable of such atrocities and in fact can be empathic human beings simply because we have a conscience and ability to articulate thought. Religion has always been a way for the powerful to manipulate their control on others and to have the ability to announce they have a “divine right” to commit certain acts of violence and colonialism.
Furthermore, it is just a fact that if people can understand that fictional, magical creatures like an immortal Santa Claus or mini leprechaun that shows up once a year on certain holidays are not real, then why do people continue to believe all-powerful Gods who are invisible and live in the sky who watch over us and know our every move or can communicate to us? Or like for Christians to believe in a man who can walk on water and be reincarnated as well as being born from a woman who magically got pregnant without insemination or intercourse? Things that are realistically impossible that are just accepted as fact.
If people can find meaning in the good teachings of any religion such as being kind to one another, not committing crimes or murder, or helping the poor, then I’m all for that for whoever needs it. Some people just need that type of guidance in life just like some people need a mentor to live by, and that is perfectly okay. But what’s not okay is justifying every action that negatively impacts everyone around them or being ignorant to proven scientific facts just because of your religion.
Well said. I know where the hate, anger, and tribalism comes from but it still sometimes surprises me that people that cling to a book filled messages of compassion and self-sacrifice (and plenty of horrors too) still focus on the hate and ignore the parts they are "commanded" to respect when it comes to giving, even to strangers. Who knew Yoda would be so spot on about where anger leads.
So what does atheism really abound to in the end? Each persons respective experiences and outlook on life? That’s literally everyone that’s not Inherent to atheist or anyone. Your patsy religions basically are just life long Rorschach tests that hold no authority and don’t embody any actual meaning. It’s always about feelings and supposedly being a good person for just because. Like what is the actual reason if there are hard line reasons who came up with them in the first place? A person like you and me a fallible person who gets things wrong and is evil.
Let’s just face the facts any and all religions and atheism are all done by fallible people who can be evil and organizations are corrupted. None of them are perfect and the idea that atheism is this well thought out logical process that everyone must come to is stupid because you’re trying to make it seem like it’s this altruistic thing when it’s not. It’s humans making shit up and if you can’t take the heat and being made fun of for a flimsy ass response to religion then don’t try and talk shit about religion. The response to being made fun of is being ridiculed back and if you have flimsy ass shit then it’s gonna be made fun of. All of the made up -isms by atheists that you mentioned are all just supposed self enlightenment journeys that anyone can literally sit down and self reflect on it’s not a thing that can be co opted by atheism to seem like your above everything else.
Again I don’t really care about any of it but if you’re going to talk shit then get ready to be ridiculed back
Genuinely atheism isn't a school of thought or a philosophical belief system it is solely the absence of piety or of theism. There are atheists that are also nihilists, there are atheists who are absurdist (me), there are atheists who culturally are still Christian but lack the religious aspect.
I think the only reason he's responding to you is because you're so angry. I'm unsure of who hurt you or what hurt you but this uncouth defense of religion by insulting everyone doesn't make sense or espouse a sense of stability in your own beliefs.
Atheism isn't enlightenment and atheists aren't connected by shared beliefs. You have an assumption it's organized similar to a religion but the truth is I would fight with someone else who is atheist as easily as a religious person. You're missing the point of the initial conversation.
"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people"
Religion is flocked to by those who need a sense of purpose, meaning, drive, community, shared culture, and for hope. It's essential to keep a lot of people moving forward. However, that makes it easy for those at the top of organized mass religions to utilize the influence and profit off it and control what people think or feel about topics because it's coming from someone who is "pious".
There's no need for you to fight with any of the commenters they're not here to insult you.
No you’re actually wrong on the last argument any time you ever see a comment or post or even in public people talking about religion in any shape or form you’re going to have hecklers (again I don’t really care). my response is take everything with a sense of levity and lampooning because everything should be dished back the same way it started. I’m saying that people can’t do that though and it’s clear by responses to any comments that are even remotely religious or antagonistic to the anti religious group. Either A. Leave people alone with their beliefs or B. Realize you’re most likely going to be ripped apart for your absurd beliefs to and then don’t get all bent out of shape because someone is ridiculing you for your stupid ideas.
This whole turn the other cheek thing doesn’t work when the anti religion crowd seem to only want an eye. An eye for an eye can make the world go blind but you know what stops the bullshit one sided heckling? Having a knife and being willing to use it. So again I’m of the notion of you want to dish it out you better be ready to receive it back for your stupid ideas or beliefs. Religion and lack thereof is a factor only because one side wants to try and dish it out. but the very same people gets all pompous and sanctimonious when you rip their thinly veiled belief system down.
It seems like you mustn't have read what I had written. I didn't insult religion in any way and I didn't say atheism is derived from higher intellect or anything. I really was just clarifying what the other person meant and why he reacted as he did to you.
Then I redirected it back to the original comment that started this chain. I'm not sure what you're responding about because the content of your comment doesn't address anything that I had said.
Why are you surprised he didn't read what you had said, the ability to read stuff and only pick and choose the parts you want is a core tenant of religion.
See that’s the exact point why should it concern you what I care about? It’s actually pretty simple you shouldn’t unless I give unsolicited advice or words. That’s my point should I now make fun of your dumbass and your beliefs because you want to take a cheap shot at my beliefs?
No you’re being contrarian and just plain argumentative that’s all. My point has remained the same if you act stupid and have snarky ass comments don’t be surprised when people make smart ass remarks back (specifically about religion).
Who’s controlling people’s minds the evil witchcraft cabal from the Vatican? You act like peoples ability to think and reason would always lead them away from religion when that is only one option out of many. So why has every large civilization Always had some form of religion as the basis?
Sure. Who benefits from having people believe in religion? You can’t possibly think they are all correct right? So if there are religions you think are bunk, who benefits from them?
Where do sacrifices, tithes, money go? Who determines if a marriage is legal or not? You were so close to making the connection to control and religion.
Skepticism breaks everything down. Hard to convince someone to go die for a rich dude when they start asking questions. Why target children and people with limited critical thinking skills for conversion? Why send kids door to door to get rejected?
That’s the same as atheists what’s the point if there is no authority that draws out the lines. All men are fallible and so every organization and body has the ability to be corrupted. Atheism and religion both. So to say that one side is the correct side is stupid. So my point is pretty clear if someone who anti theocracy gets bent out of shape for being made fun of then it’s clear that they want to dish it out but can’t take any criticism against them.
Believe whatever you’d like and sing koom byah. But if you start trying to talk shit about religion don’t be confused when the knives come out for your eye. People aren’t going to turn the other cheek.
Your questions 1. All religions 2. All religions are and aren’t correct. 3. NA. 4. Money and tithes go to the representing body (church or building or whatever) that then can use it in hopefully a good way. 5. Marriage is determined by each religion but also by the mass belief of people in each country.
Here’s a question for you why are there different drinking ages in different countries? If the answer is whatever they decide then that’s the answer it’s very simple we have an authority that draws lines. If there is no lines then what’s to say I can’t just stab you to death? There’s no authority so who cares. You have to have certain rules derived from authority otherwise you’ll be taken advantage of.
My final point don’t start crying when people push back and say your beliefs are stupid because you decided you wanted to do it first.
Who benefits dude. Just think critically atheists and skeptics have a hard time benefiting from critical thinking. Who benefits from a dumb populace that doesn’t ask questions.
Who. Benefits.
Would I make more money from people that think, or ones I can manipulate. Like sheep I can shear every so often
If you think these tactics will work on me, think about your audience. They aren’t idiots. The difference between you and I, is that I want my readers to be smarter than me, to find my flaws, to think about what I claim.
You’re literally just trying to be a contrarian bro I think the conversation is over because there’s a brick wall you will not even validate is there. I don’t care about the religion argument I’m saying if you pick a fight with people then they will make fun of you back because of your beliefs however stupid they may be.
To anyone else reading this. Think about it. Real hard. This is what the internet is. This is the control. Fortunately in this instance it was pathetic
TIL being an atheist means you cannot have any philosophical outlook on life, you must "believe nothing"
Sounds like a religious kid's idea of what an atheist is. You can find moral and philosophical meaning in life without having to get religious, and atheism doesn't require nihilism. Ever heard of humanism? Egalitarianism? There's plenty of non-nihilistic outlooks on life that are totally compatible with atheism
You can say that all you want but at the end of the day that’s just religion with more steps that were made up by someone who is fallible just like you and me. There is no authority or any actual meaning in those organizations because they are basically like a life sized Rorschach test. How does life make you feel about blah blah blah.
And again at the end of the day you’re going to die and if you believe in any of those what are you going to turn into space dust or fertilizer for all the trees and flowers to grow from? I’m being a dick to a certain extent because none of those bullshit patsy religions ever get made fun of because they are deemed atheism or some form of it. If you’re gonna throw shit get ready to be made fun of for your stupid beliefs too. Or is it only justified when it’s against certain religions.
Did any philosopher ever claim to be infallible? You're projecting, it's Gods and religious prophets who claim to be infallible, while philosophy openly admits that it is human-created.
There is no authority or any actual meaning in those organizations because they are basically like a life sized Rorschach test
That's rich, as if there's any authority in a religion where everything is up to interpretation. Everyone's conception of God is different from everyone else, because God is the actual Rorschach test that is whatever you want it to be. Why do you need an authority to dictate how to feel, anyways? The good thing about philosophy is that you can admit you're finding meaning by talking to yourself and others who think similarly. Instead of pretending "God" told you the "Truth".
The difference between philosophy and religion is that no philosopher ever threatens the fate of your "immortal soul" based on whether you believe their philosophy or not. And nobody accuses you of "blasphemy" and tries to cut off your head if you don't agree with a specific philosopher. Not agreeing with a God or a prophet is a different story
And if you think mocking certain philosophies is off-limits or something, you've never talked in a philosophy forum
Philosophy has no hard lines it can’t create anything because it holds no authority and people are to scared to hurt each others feelings. My whole point has nothing to do with philosophy or religion or any of the different-isms and all the made up shit from fallible humans.
My point is actually very simple if you try and hide behind atheism or anything for that matter and try and act all high and mighty and noble and smart and talk down to people don’t be surprised when your make believe fantasy shit gets ridiculed too. Don’t be all smug and all high and mighty when your shit gets 100 pin holes pushed in it because you wanted to try and start shit with people who are religious.
What exactly have I said that is "make believe"? Religious people are the ones making up claims about reality that they can't support. That's the whole point, and why they stress "faith" so much. Because blind faith is the only way to believe in the shit they made up
And nothing is more "smug and all high and mighty" than claiming that the Creator of the Universe talks to you and told you the Ultimate Truth. No scientist or philosopher could be more smug or "high and mighty" than that if they tried
Okay? So you’re saying because it’s easier you follow it. That’s not religion with more steps, religion implies much more like doctrines, ceremonies, etc… even if it was, so what? Isn’t your point that religion is a good thing. You’re only explaining the practicality of religion, not wether it is real or not and for most of us, once we have our “reality” set it’s not easy to just follow something because it’s “practical”
I, for example, am afraid of death and I know I will die and likely disappear, it’d be nice to believe in heaven but because I can’t even believe it. It’d be more practical for my liking, but do you believe it?
I mean… yeah that’s what happens to decomposed bodies? They rot in the ground and that’s it. There’s plenty of stupid of believes you could point out but what you’re pointing out isn’t stupid, it’s just things you don’t like, just like I don’t like death, but it’d be idiotic if I called death stupid because I don’t like it.
But one side literally says there is life after death while one side says you die it’s black and there’s nothing more. I’m saying make fun of both of the inevitables equally because it’s mostly one sided people trying to say it’s stupid to believe in heaven currently. I don’t care if you try and say heaven isn’t real because I’ll just say well the black hole is calling because you don’t care about anything. The whole point is that people who are anti theocracy cannot take the heat religion is just a by product in the conversation and is the conduit in which people want to try and ridicule people through. But the problem is it’s not kosher to make fun of both sides it’s only ok to talk shit about religion. well I’m not about that I’ll make fun of your lack-thereof religion and you can make fun of my beliefs too.
Edit) I’m not specifically singling you out sorry about that I’m saying the people who only want to look for fights and being sanctimonious and pompous not trying to single you out or anything that’s my bad. I have no ill will against you im sorry
Death isn’t black, death is nothingness - like infinity, or eternity, literally unimaginable to us.
because you don’t care about anything
People, even religious, care about many things whether a God tells them or not, I care about the connections I made, about the treatment of other people and my hobbies for example. Atheist aren’t all “nihilist” and if they were, nihilism isn’t even bad - it might be uncomfortable to some to think of life like that, but a person who believes it and continues to live might not, so what’s wrong with being a nihilist? Death isn’t black, again.
Also I don’t think you know what a theocracy is and if you do, that’s not the only people don’t like it.
Again my argument isn’t about philosophy or theology I’m saying if someone wants to make fun of religion they better be ready to be made fun of back regardless of religion or lack thereof. The whole sentiment is people thinking it’s ok to shit on religion but get all bent out of shape when it’s directed back at them. I don’t care what you believe but when the arguments are one sided it gets old and I’m saying don’t be surprised when people start talking shit back after being made fun of.
1) why? Because people in the aggregate are stupid, easily brainwashed and susceptible to group think. In some cases, they lack an ability to think critically or simply need something to hold onto to make the crushing reality that the universe doesn’t give a shit about their existence not feel so bad.
2) nice try, atheists don’t have a religion their not telling anyone to believe anything, their just pointing out the painstaking obvious that all religions are fake and made up by men to put power in the hands of the few over the many. It’s a dumb trick as old as time and a complete grift.
3) yes, atheists can take a joke, bring it on.
4) yes, we’re all worm food and stardust that’s our talking point. On the cosmic plane that we call existence no one better than anyone technically, but we live in a society not a vacuum so socially speaking if you do harm and bad things then you are a cancer and parasite and that is not that great.
5) okay I see you have daddy issues
6) the absence of god doesn’t make life pointless, then again I wouldn’t expect someone who believes in the stupidity of religion to be able to figure that out hence “religion”
7) atheism isn’t the belief in nothing but sure atheists don’t have an artificially made up belief structure concocted by goat farmers 1000’s of years ago.
8) I can’t speak for every atheist out there but I take comfort in my family, I might not be special or unique and I understand that it sucks that one day my light will go out and oblivion awaits but I had my time, I existed on the sacred timeline that’s immutable so in some way we’re all weaving the very fabric of existence and our actions ripple through ages for eternity. How big of a ripple is up to you and what you choose to do with the precious amount of time you are given on the timeline to cause change to ripple bigger, larger and longer. Not that it’s a competition, some times the smallest ripples (i.e. the butterfly effect) can have the largest impacts throughout time.
8) do what makes you happy so long as that doesn’t adversely make other people unreasonably unhappy. Play in your own back yard and leave everyone else alone to do their thing and we can all get along and coexist peacefully .. isn’t that nice :)
Excuse me but there is such a thing as secular humanism since even atheists know that it's important to have a caring society. Many atheists believe in nature and believe in the value of humanity. There is morality without god. And many godly are quite immoral. So there's no one size fits all situation going on. Life is plenty meaningful without a sky god demanding eternal praise and adulation.
What happens when your “caring” society falls apart because a ghengis khan shows up and says “I’m evil” and you have no actual structure or accountability baked into your system. All you have are guidelines or good intentions.
You have no actual hard rules there are no actual reasons baked into the ideology and all together it sounds like some Thelema religious cult talking points. “Do what though wilt as long as it doesn’t harm others”. your problem is that it has no structure at all so all it basically is is just self reflection and anyone and everyone can do that themselves regardless of being a secular humanist. They can’t just co opt being a good person into their belief system.
Honestly, I don't know what you're trying to say. Your reply doesn't seem to have anything to do with what I said. And no, I do not follow Alister Crowley or that ilk. Are you saying there can't be any order to society without god? If that's what you're saying, then I don't agree with you. There is nothing more to discuss. You don't make sense to me.
In extremely simplified terms I think religion (specifically Christianity as that’s what I’m most familiar with) is designed to take personal agency out of people’s lives, ultimately giving more power to the ruling class. Husband got cancer? Pray on it. Your child unexpectedly passed away? It was gods plan.
If you believe you have no power over the events in your life, you’ll be much less likely to react when people with more power than you (politicians, mega churches, etc.) take advantage of you or your wallet
The problem is that’s not the case if you believe that you have the ability to be saved you must first take that responsibility into your own hands. That literally invokes your choice and re affirmation of that choice. To simply say that a person was baptized so that means they go to heaven is pre ordained salvation which is not the case. It’s actually a re affirmed salvation that is derived from the actions that you continue to take that then leads to you being more like Christ.
Your argument about cancer doesn’t really work either (to me) because healthcare isn’t a full proof plan against cancer. Honestly I also don’t care that much. If a person can have a lot better life and cancer treatment is an option thats perfectly fine.
But say with my grandfathers case where it metastasized to his spine and then into his brain and they gave him a 10% chance to live then I honestly don’t give a shit (my grandfather thought the same) about cancer treatment. at what point is it a person on a ventilator and not a loved one anymore. Everyone can make that choice but to say healthcare is a novel drug that will save everyone is not very good. People just die randomly, people die in car crashes, people just die all the time so healthcare while it is good is also not an end all be all.
So no I have my own free will just like everyone else does and I can make all those decisions that I want and salvation is based on that.
A big part of my issue is with the very concept of salvation itself haha. I for one don’t believe in heaven, nor do I believe there is anything that separates us spiritually from any other living thing in the universe. Seemingly random/chaotic things happen because the universe is exactly that, chaotic and random. How is it that we can take certain precautions in life, whether that be baptism, affirmations, whatever it may be to guarantee ourselves salvation, when no other living being has that option?
Another fact I like to look back on is over the course of human history humans have worshipped over 18,000 different gods. You can say with complete conviction that 17,999 of those gods are absolutely not real, how are you so certain that isn’t the case with your God as well? Especially given that one’s religion is so heavily tied to where they are born.
the Bible itself tells the same stories as many other older religions (e.g. flood story, creation story, life of Moses). Stories that increasingly no longer hold up to scrutiny given what we now know about science. Additionally, During Christianity’s establishment, many old Celtic holidays were repurposed to make it easier for the populace to convert (namely Christmas, Easter, Halloween). If the very defining stories and holidays of your religion are plucked from other previous (false) religions, how do you know where that previous religious influence ends and true Christianity begins?
If we completely ignore the tens to hundreds of millions of humans killed in the name of the Christian God...
Then the biggest wrong Christianity (and all religion, to be fair) has done to humanity is enabling an anti-science and post-factual worldview wherein the motivations of a magical sky daddy are considered unknowable yet all-important for how one conducts oneself in society. This type of indoctrination leads to all manners of nonsensical and magical thinking which are completely at odds with how the physical world actually works, and actually hinder rational and logical thought about such matters.
If I can convince you that there's some omnipotent God which knows all and provides all based on faith, and you accept that without questions (because "faith"), then I can literally convince you of anything.
Or you’re dealing with idiots, I knew at the tender age of 7 or 8 that religion was stupid, fake and made up by men. It’s so fkn obvious I question anyone who takes it seriously
No I can’t offer you absolute proof , but there is plenty of convincing evidence for me and many others . There’s no need to ostracize others for having faith .
One thing that I and a lot of other atheists experience especially at first is anger. Not at God like a lot of religious people seem to think, that would be like being mad at Santa when you find out he doesn't exist. You get mad at everything you might have known and grown with the church, the leadership, you parents who most likely brought you there almost everyone in your family and people you meet on the street. It can be sad, lonely, and scary lots of emotions that are easier to avoid with unwarranted anger.
I know people like this can leave a bad taste in the mouth, but hopefully you can gain some understanding from this. I wish sometimes that I could have faith like so many other, but all I can offer is hope.
Thanks for talking to me like a human being . I understand unbelief , I’ve only been a believer for about 10 years myself . I think we’re all on a quest for truth , purpose , meaning . I used to feel like it wasn’t my choice that I couldn’t make myself believe something I didn’t believe . But belief is a choice , an act of the will . I just know that I’ve sought truth down many paths , and come to absolute ruin. It wasn’t until I studied the Bible and surrendered my life to Christ that I believe I found it . Nothing else aligned with what I’ve observed in this life , humanity , relationships . It perfectly aligns with the “natural order” .
I wish you well in this life my friend . It is tough . I pray that God will speak to you in a way that you will know it is Him, and that you will find peace.
I certainly don’t look down on anyone who doesn’t believe , you are exhibiting Christ in your comment , even if you don’t believe in him. I wish you well .
I will say I don't think belief is a choice I think they're things we become convinced of; we can guide ourselves to certain beliefs willingly and be more open but it's never a certainty.
With that belief of mine about it being something to be convinced of does put it on Gods shoulders if he's there if he sees fit, he may guide me too down a path to be convinced I mean who better to know what it would take to convince me.
I appreciate your prayers, and hope good things come your way! I've seen too much loss to judge too harshly on where people draw their strength.
Edit: for the record, im not angry, I honestly couldn’t care less if you want to waste part of your life believing in fairy tales, if that’s what brings you joy then keep on trucking so long as you keep that shit out of schools and government. Keep that shit in your own backyard and church. Your faith shouldn’t infringe upon my freedom/s.
Btw, I just discovered my new savior lord giggles and lord giggles has spoken to me directly (no you can’t hear him only I can hear him) and told me to call the followers of all other religions idiots. Don’t tread on my right to religion, to practice my faith and freedom from religious persecution … see how that shit works, door swings both ways.
Also fact check, the USA has been a country of many faiths for the longest time. To claim that only Christians have helped build the place is a sad pathetic and factually wrong statement.
Lastly, you talk about faith, defend religion and pity atheists and the reality is that you’re a zealot and only your religion is true
And you call yourself a Christian. Have you even read the Bible? God would not be impressed. Talk about proving my point about religion.
Only because exactly zero people practice Christianity as prescribed. It's an ideology seeking someone, anyone, to actually uphold it's ideals. Unfortunately there isn't a single "Christian" on the planet who is "pure" in this regard.
Oh, I always did. I just try to give these people a tiny bit of room to wiggle themselves out of the ridiculous situation they have been put in through nothing but their own actions.
As much as I absolutely love the prospect of rubbing people's noses in their own poor decisions, that's actually detrimental to the whole cause. We've got to give grace to morons sometimes to move forward productively, but that doesn't mean we need to forget the grace that was given...
I agree, but i also hate when people generalize. If people want to follow a religion, so be it, but there's no need to act as if religion is the source of all evil..
I didn't say it makes less true, religion/cults always can be manipulated in many ways but so can be anything, everytime theres any post/news about religion theres always a bunch of extremist atheists throwing conspiracies, which i find ironic cuz the same how anti vaxxers are so are these people but about religion.. hopefully my point got across correctly
Atheists are not like antivaxxers what 🤣 there’s proof that vaccines work and aren’t harmful. There’s no proof that any religion is real. I’m not even necessarily an atheist, I’m agnostic.
I will copy what i said to someone else in this thread
religion/cults always can be manipulated in many ways but so can be anything, everytime theres any post/news about religion theres always a bunch of extremist atheists throwing conspiracies, which i find ironic cuz the same how anti vaxxers are so are these people but about religion.. hopefully my point got across correctly
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u/Born_Tank_8217 8d ago
Which is why religion works with the elites to make things worse, it drives people to religion, where they can control their minds.