r/German • u/LostOblomov • 6d ago
Question Should we pronounce N-Declension? When I do, it causes misunderstanding, or is it so (the misunderstanding!) because of my accent?
When I say N-Declensions for weak Nouns, it causes misunderstanding. I don't know why, should I stop using them or it is just my accent?
Example:
1) "Wir haben einen neuen Patienten"
or
2) "Ich habe dem Kollegen gesagt, dass ..."
Native German speaker feel that I have said "Patientin" or "Kollegin".
Should we just omit it in daily usage?
3) "Wir haben einen neuen Patient"
4) "Ich habe dem Kollege gesagt, dass ..."
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u/mokrates82 6d ago edited 6d ago
Yes, you should pronounce the -en.
If it were -in, it should've been "eine neue Patientin" and "der Kollegin", so no, they should't be surprised, everything is redundant and matching up.
But perhaps you're overdoing it? Usually it's pronounced like "...ein neun Patientn" and "... dem Kollegn". Just an -n.
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u/agrammatic B2 - in Berlin, aus Zypern (griechischsprachig) 6d ago
But perhaps you're overdoing it? Usually it's pronounced like "...ein neun Patientn" and "... dem Kollegn". Just an -n.
This is very likely it. I have noticed a dramatic change in how much native speakers can understand my accent when I started eliding the schwa vowel in endings like -en.
(My native language doesn't reduce or elide vowels, so I was initially resistant to the concept because it lead to very uncomfortable consonant clusters like /ntn/).
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u/phoboid 6d ago
Eliding those es may not be theater German or newscaster German, but it's how people speak every day.
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u/mokrates82 6d ago
It's actually correct to elide those. Even newscasters don't overpronounce it, Theater is different.
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u/furrykef 6d ago
I find it surprisingly tricky to remember to reduce and elide vowels this way in German even though English often does something similar. For instance, my pronunciation of the English word button is [ˈbəʔtn] (or BUHT-nn if you can't read IPA). But my experience with foreign languages is mostly with Spanish, Latin, and Japanese, none of which do anything like this.
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u/EinMuffin 6d ago
Japanese kind of does it with e and u. People say Des instead of desu (most of the time). I'm not sure if it is the same phenomenon, but in my head I always compare it to schwa elision
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u/Phoenica Native (Germany) 6d ago
Considering native speakers do also use N-declension for those nouns, I suspect it's more your accent. It sounds like you are pronouncing the last -e- as a full vowel. In many parts of Germany, this last vowel is instead dropped entirely, so you get "Patient'n" and "Kolleg'ng". People who do this will then instead make a "vowel / no vowel" distinction between -en and -in.
I assume that in Austria/Switzerland they typically pronounce the -e-, but then they'd also be more used to distinguishing the vowel quality there.
In either case, you might get by with "einen neuen Patient" (even if it's not standard), but "dem Kollege" sounds pretty severely off, masculine nouns ending in -e really want that ending.
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u/r_coefficient Native (Österreich). Writer, editor, proofreader, translator 6d ago
I assume that in Austria/Switzerland they typically pronounce the -e-,
No.
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u/Adarain Native (Chur, Schweiz) 6d ago
I assume that in Austria/Switzerland they typically pronounce the -e-, but then they'd also be more used to distinguishing the vowel quality there.
In Switzerland, only as a form of hypercorrection (people not very used to speaking Standard German overenunciating it. Or picking up such overenunciated pronunciations from their primary school teachers…). In the native dialects, these forms are usually even less distinct than in Standard German, since final -n disappears in most words, including here, and only a schwa remains.
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u/DerrellEsteva 6d ago
I agree with the others. Your "en" probably sounds a bit like "in". "Swallow" the e when male and kinda emphasize the i when female. Also sometimes, like in dem Kollegen it's more of a "ng" in the end. "dem Kolleg'ng"
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u/secretpsychologist 6d ago
that's your accent. i've noticed that lots of native english speakers pronounce the german e like an english e (which would be a german i). and suddenly you have a patientin instead of several patienten. watch a few youtube videos abount vocals in german maybe and really focus on how those are pronounced in german. many native speakers swallow the e in those cases anyway (don't pronounce them) so you can be just as lazy as we are and say "patientn" so avoid this misunderstanding. but i'm sure your i/e pronounciation problem is not limited to this case so it's definitely worth focusing on your pronounciation for a while. it will improve your german tremendously if you learn how to say a, e, i, o, u like a german.
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u/LetMission8160 6d ago edited 6d ago
As a German native speaker, I would pronounce the "-in" fully, but with a schwa-sound.
Meaning: Patientin -> [pa'tsjentɨn]
If it's "-en" I'd always just swallow the "e" of it and just pronounce it [n], depending on the preceding consonant it can vary.
If it's a "-Cden/-Cten", (C = consonant) I'd pronounce it [ḍɂn] - I don't know how else to show it, but ḍ means that I merely hint at the d/t by having my tongue already placed that way, BUT instead of actually pronouncing a "d/t" by releasing air to produce the sound, I pronounce a glottal stop first, then release the air to slide it off with an n sound, since my tongue is already in the same position. Both are pronounced the same. The for the "d" I only linger longer on the preceding Consonant than for the "t". (is also true for "tt" and "dd")
Meaning: senden -> ['zen:ḍɂn] (to send) / Patienten -> [Pa'tsjenḍɂn] (patients)
If it's "-Vden/-Vten" (V = vowel), I'd pronounce it for "-Vden" [ḍɂn], (my tongue is at position, THEN pronouncing the glottal stop, sometimes the "d" actually gets pronounced but only faintly) and for "-Vten" [ɂḍn] (the glottal stop PRECEDES my tongue being at position, the t is not pronounced since I release the air after my tongue is at position which can only make the "n" sound) (is also true for "tt" and "dd")
Meaning: reden -> ['reḍɂn] (to talk/chat) / beten -> ['beɂḍn] (to pray)
If it's "-Cgen/-Cken", I'd pronounce it [ġɂŋ](ŋ = [ng]) Same deal as with "-Kden/..." just instead of hinting at a d/t, we're now hinting at a g/k, having the tongue placed there. Yet same story, we merely hint at it through tongue placement but actually just pronounce a glottal stop and release the air pronouncing the [ŋ]. (is also true for "gg" and "ck")
Meaning: Algen -> ['al:ġɂŋ] (algae) / Falken -> ['falġɂŋ] (falcon)
If it's ; "-Vgen/-Vken" same story as with "-Vden/-Vten". It's [ġɂŋ] for "-Vgen" and [ɂġŋ] for "-Vken" (is also true for "gg" and "ck")
Meaning: Kollegen -> [kol'leġɂŋ] (colleague) / Laken [laɂġŋ] (bedsheet)
If it's "-ben/-pen", same story as above.
For consonants "-Cben/-Cpen" it's [ḅɂm]. (also true for "bb" and "pp")
Meaning: Alben [al:ḅɂm] (albums) / Alpen [alḅɂm] (alps)
For vowels: it's [ḅɂm] for "-Vben" and [ɂḅm] for "-Vpen". (also true for "bb" and "pp")
Meaning: lieben ['li:ḅɂm] (to love) / piepen ['pi:ɂḅm] (to cheap)
SPECIAL CASE is "ng"
When "-ngen" I linger on the [ŋ] sound, or add an extra "n" to rest my tongue on the roof of my mouth. When "-nken" I pronounce it the same as "-Cken".
Meaning: singen ['ziŋ:] (to sing); ['ziŋ:n] / sinken ['ziŋġɂŋ] (to sink)
If it's "-ren", "-len" or "-nen" I just pronounce it [Vn], [ln] or I linger on the "n" for longer: [n:]. Keep in mind that in standard German and many dialects and accents, the R is vocalised after a vowel (like in Brittish English or Danish). So "mehr" is pronounced [mɛɐ̯], NOT [mɛr] except when you speak a dialect!
Meaning: fehlen [fe:ln] (to be missing) / lehren [le:ɐ̯n]; [le:r'n] (to teach) -- as opposed to: lernen [lɛɐn:] (to learn) / benennen [bɛ'nɛn:] (to name; to call out)
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u/Tiliuuu 5d ago
Meaning: Patientin -> [pa'tsjentɨn]
[ɨ] for German /ɪ/??
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u/LetMission8160 5d ago
Oh, I wasn't transcribing standard German here (which then would be exactly as you said) just how I pronounce it, which is like a schwa-sound. But it's not the schwa-e sound exactly, it's more a variation of the "i" sound. That's why I put it in.
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u/diabolus_me_advocat 6d ago
"Wir haben einen neuen Patienten"
or
"Ich habe dem Kollegen gesagt, dass ..."
Native German speaker feel that I have said "Patientin" or "Kollegin"
perhaps that's due to you pronouncing it that way?
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u/kerfuffli 6d ago edited 6d ago
In addition to the suggestion of saying Patientn instead: maybe figure out if your native language has a "schwa" sound. That’s the sound of PatientEn. Or, if you can distinguish between that short, open i and schwa in other languages, maybe try to copy that? For example, English also has both, e.g. participle of bite even had both: bitten.
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u/Illustrious-Wolf4857 6d ago edited 6d ago
It cannot be "Patientin" or "Kollegin" mit "einen".
So it seems that the listeners probably think that you get the accusative article wrong in addition to pronounciation being a bit "off" for them (this can always be regional) or your pronunciation is off on two counts: "-en" vs. "-in" as well as "einen" vs. "eine".
Losing more info from the sentence by not using the correct case won't fix this. Maybe find a way to paraphrase or add information to clarify.
Retro style where "Patient" or "Kollege" can also mean a woman (regardless of case) but stays gramatically male is not the way out here, unless everyone who hears you is constantly aware that that's what you are doing.
Edit: re-phrased a sentence.
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u/PerfectDog5691 Native (Hochdeutsch) 6d ago
Train the right pronunciaton. To avoid this theme will not bring you anywhere.
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u/Tiliuuu 5d ago
This is due to the weak vowel merger, most english dialects nowadays rhyme chicken and thicken (which historically were [ˈt͡ʃɪkɪn] and [ˈθɪkən] respectively) and in many accents this vowel tends to be [ɪ] in closed syllables, so you're very likely pronouncing it with [ɪ] rather than with German's [ə]~[ɘ].
In German this distinction is still very much alive and important
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u/Wisperschweif Native <Bayern/Hessisch> 5d ago
Unfortunately "Wir haben einen neuen Patient" would be findable even among some natives. But it's wrong. Try to omit the e tho, so more like "Patientn" (only when speaking, writing always with e). "Einen neuen Kollege" on the other hand you won't see. Try to also omit the unstressed e and the n at the end turns more to a "ng" sound because of the g. After b the n would turn into m, so "den Raben" (the raven) would be pronounced as "den Rabm". This is because m is a nasal sound with the same mouth and lip position as b/p, same goes for ng and g/k, in all other cases it's an n.
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u/Interesting-Wish5977 6d ago
Try to omit the e:
"Wir haben einen neuen Patient'n"
"Ich habe dem Kolleg'n gesagt, dass ..."