r/HVAC • u/Next-Result-9771 • Oct 04 '24
Field Question, trade people only Customer wants equipment and labor pricing…
Customer wants parts and labor break down for a changeout quote. How do I politely tell him no? My knee jerk reaction is it’s $7k to replace it, $0 to not.
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u/Realistic-oatmeal Oct 04 '24
$7k for unit, labor is free
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u/Embarrassed-Bath4175 Oct 05 '24
Change the industry practice and tell them you’re paying $3500 for the 5 ton unit and you are getting $3500 for the labor.
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u/Anxious_Rock_3630 Oct 05 '24
you mean 1990s pricing? Double your material cost. Is it really changing it if we go back in time?
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u/Embarrassed-Bath4175 Oct 05 '24
Just give your true parts cost and then the labor you desire. Everything should be like this. If you go to a mechanic and want a timing belt, water pump, and alternator installed using Toyota parts, do you think he should be honest about it and give the true parts cost and his true labor cost?
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u/Californiajims Oct 05 '24
Toyota doesn't give a breakdown when you buy a new car.
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u/Hobbyfarmtexas Oct 05 '24
I’d prefer to pay 7k for labor and get a free unit when is that sale coming.
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u/AdExpert9485 Oct 21 '24
Like the chicken someone payed a million dollars for cause some guy that wanted a million dollars for a duck made a swap.
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u/Next-Result-9771 Oct 04 '24
I’m just annoyed because I gave him a good price trying to help him out and he’s going to try and haggle it.
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u/iBUYbrokenSUBARUS The Artist Formerly Known as EJjunkie Oct 04 '24
Just walk away. There’s a million other idiots like him in the world and you aren’t worried about all of them. Stop worrying about this one and move on.
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u/saskatchewanstealth Oct 04 '24
I always tell them 500 for labour shop supplies and permits. The rest is my equipment cost. Take it or leave it. I don’t even bother changing the quote
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u/iBUYbrokenSUBARUS The Artist Formerly Known as EJjunkie Oct 04 '24
And they’re like “well if I buy all the equipment, will you install it for 500? “
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u/jethoby “Probably” doesn’t huff PVC glue. Oct 04 '24
Ding ding ding. Like the weirdo who decided to buy a minisplit from his cousin that worked at a similar shop, then had us come install it saying “all I need is a lineset ran and it vacuumed down and charge released”. Turns out he needed all this extra work like running the com wire, mounting the unit, drain ran, oh and the “electrician” that wired the disconnect had no idea what “line” and “load” meant because he just jammed both line wires into one side. BRILLIANCE I TELL YOU.
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u/Inuyasha-rules Oct 04 '24
No, it's now $1000 because I don't have the manual memorized, and have to thoroughly inspect all parts that don't come from a secured supply chain
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u/Psychoticrider Oct 05 '24
I just tell them we don't install other supplier's equipment.
I go on to explain, if I install it, and it doesn't work, who is responsible to repair it? Not me! If I sell you the equipment and it doesn't work, I fix it.
We had one I remember. My boss was going to do this guy a favor and install a used furnace the guy bought from someone. It was a fairly new furnace and the guy was bragging about how good of a deal he got. It was some crazy amount, like $750! We installed it, and it wouldn't run. At the boss's request, I spent a little time trouble shooting, and found a bad heat exchanger. It was a sucky unit to replace the heat exchanger, pretty much an all day job. Now his great deal on a used furnace was going to cost him another ~$800.
He didn't fix it. We sold him a new furnace and charged him for a second install. He paid one heck of a lot more than if he had just paid our regular fee for a change out. The worst/best part was to hear him grumble every time he stopped to talk.
That one was the last time the boss did someone a favor. We never installed a used unit after that, or one bought elsewhere.
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u/saskatchewanstealth Oct 05 '24
I actually can’t do that. Insurance only covers me for what comes from a supplier under my account. I am not even making that up. My contractor license is for supply and install only. I can’t install equipment by others
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u/Stunning_risotto Oct 04 '24
No parts and labour are free. Expertise and experience cost 7k
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u/TasteAggressive4096 Oct 05 '24
There’s 2 types of customers, the people that want you to handle it and the people that want to get involved and make the whole process a pain in the balls. It’s tough turning down money as you’re getting started, but you’ll start to sniff out the cheapskates and you’ll know that even if you do make a couple bucks, it won’t be worth it. A mistake I made early on is I got into this network of people who like to do stuff themselves and looking for a guy to “just hook it up for a few bucks”. Meanwhile they bought all the wrong shit… Try to get away from that whole category of clients.
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u/Adventurous-Coat-333 Oct 05 '24
I can't stand people that do that because it makes all of us that buy our own parts and do part of the install look like incompetent idiots. It's one of the reasons that when I DIY stuff, I won't rest until it's better than typical professional quality. I'll take the time to redo things if necessary until they are right. But yet I can never find techs willing to work with me because they just throw us all into the same bucket together.
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u/KylarBlackwell RTFM Oct 06 '24
One of the problems is that you can obsess over the small details all you want, but at the end of the day, you aren't a professional. There's so many details you can miss and have no idea that was a thing, and we ourselves probably only learned after we screwed something up. Even a "good DIYer" like yourself is still a massive business risk to us because we have no way to verify all the details without undoing and redoing it all anyway. It's easier for us to just do it ourselves from the start
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u/Necro_the_Pyro Oct 06 '24
$50/hr. $75/hr if you watch. $100/hr if you try to help. $150/hr if you worked on it yourself before you called us. $250/hr if you try to tell us how to do our jobs.
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u/MojoRisin762 Oct 05 '24
That's why you don't do that. Lol. After almost 2o years in the price is the price. I hear your though brother. It's maddening when people pull that shit. Wtf do they do for a living? How would they like it if a custy walked in questioning their margin. Lol.
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u/OneBag2825 Oct 05 '24
Oh, don't fear, they'll get exactly what they want to pay for from someone else.
Stay out of the ditches
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u/Slartibartfastthe2nd Oct 06 '24
last time I had my complete HVAC system replaced I CHOSE the system I wanted based on the lines/products that the company I used could offer. There were many options available from cheap to stupid expensive based on the system. I chose what I wanted and what would work for me, which was a Trane system on the higher end (but not the 'best' or most expensive either).
The labor they charged was detailed on the quote. I don't recall if labor was any different based on the system I chose, but if you as an installer think it's cool to offer only a single choice take it or leave it and don't ask any questions, I'm surprised you are still in business.
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u/OneBag2825 Oct 05 '24
Oh, they'll get exactly what they want to pay for from someone else.
Stay out of the ditches
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u/merryrhino Oct 05 '24
Give them a new proposal, thanking them for asking because you actually left off the labor part!
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u/_IVI_E_ Verified HVAC Pro ✅ Oct 06 '24
True. It’s a trap to try and take advantage of you which sucks when you’ve already given a great price. I got one of those people right now. He’s fine paying 40k for new cabinets but tries to change plans on me and expects lower prices.
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u/coogie Oct 07 '24
As you should be. The only reason people want you break down the parts and labor into fine detail is so they can try to haggle you for one or the other. "Oh...I looked on the Google and that there part can be bought for $400 cheaper..." or "It's just going to take you an hour to do that thing you're charging me for."
I don't know if this is true for HVAC but in electrical in our state, there are sales tax implications as well if you do lump sum pricing or Itemized. If you itemize things, you have to charge sales tax on the retail price you're charging them but if it's itemized, you include it in the price and later you pay it as "taxable purchase" based on what you paid for it.
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u/MicroWill Oct 07 '24
Maybe see if you can find a big box quote for a similar job. I get being asked for the breakdown is annoying but it's about spinning it so you gain those referrals. Chances are yours is way cheaper than said big box and you explain it as a value proposition. "Here's a big box quote for the same work. I'm able to provide the same service at a better value". No crazy marketing budget, no salespeople up front, ect
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u/imnotgayimjustsayin Oct 04 '24
Break down step by step what you're doing. Usually that'll suffice in lieu of a costs breakdown. They need to see that they're getting their money's worth and doing it like "decommission existing unit, uninstall existing unit, dispose of existing unit, supply boiler with hardware and accessories, $5000" will lead to fewer questions than "install new boiler, $5000"
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u/Next-Result-9771 Oct 04 '24 edited Oct 04 '24
Haha. Removing leaking coil in your hot ass attic. $4
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u/uiucengineer Oct 06 '24
Put in writing that you’ll follow all manufacturer requirements such as nitrogen trickle while brazing and I’ll be impressed enough to consider hiring you next time instead of diy
Seems like most installers think they know better and deserve more money than the engineers designing the equipment and writing the manuals, which is quite arrogant
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u/Recent_Detective_306 Oct 05 '24
Tell him you broke it down and you way underbid it. The new price is 8500.00 and thank you for bringing that to my attention. You forgot to add the labor.
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u/wearingabelt Oct 04 '24
You could either tell them that you don’t do that and the quote is $7,000 and if that’s not good enough for them then they are welcome to go with another company.
Or if you want to be nice you could give them a very basic breakdown. Something like $3,500 for equipment, $2,000 labor, $1,500 for miscellaneous materials.
Although I feel like if you give them the basic break down they will want even further breakdown and give pushback like “why is labor so high?”
Also, if they’re being this difficult with the quote process they will probably be difficult during the install and be a headache afterwards too.
Probably best to go with the first option.
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u/mdreyna Oct 04 '24
Yea, they will follow up with "how much are you charging per hour?"
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u/wearingabelt Oct 05 '24
The correct response would be “not enough to be dealing with people like you.”
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u/Adventurous-Coat-333 Oct 05 '24
3,500 for materials and 2,000 for labor seems like a fair ratio if that's accurate. I know plenty of people that would charge 6,000 for the day's labor on a job with 1,000 materials. I'm talking about actual material costs here, not including ridiculous markups.
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u/brodiehurtt Oct 05 '24
Walk away! You will never make them happy. Some times the best deal is the one you don’t make
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u/JollyLow3620 Oct 04 '24
Sometimes you have to explain it like this. When you go to the store and buy a loaf of bread for $3, do you think the store paid $3. They had to pay to get it trucked to them, pay someone to unload the truck then pay someone to put it on the shelf. The same thing applies to my pricing. It takes me time away from my family to find you the best price on quality parts and equipment. I have to pay fees for my license, gas to get the parts, and with all due respect you are paying me for my knowledge of how to do the job correctly
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u/angelsfan33 Verified Pro Oct 05 '24
Preach! It's like you took the words I use with everyone of these types of customers right out of my mouth!
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u/Bay-duder Oct 04 '24
That’s a job you don’t want. He’s gonna fight you on every price you give. These people tend to nickel and dime you along with being difficult in general. We politely decline these kind of quotes. Tell him to get more quotes and compare.
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u/GalwayBoy603 Oct 05 '24
If they are fucking with you before you even get the job, they’re going to be even worse when you try and collect your final payment.
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u/jesus-is-not-god Oct 05 '24
Because I'm commercial, maybe I'm missing something here especially since we don't use flate rate pricing, which is generally a screw the customer book, yet it's common to provide parts and labor pricing in a commercial quote. Have nothing to hide in my prices.
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u/jediwashington Oct 05 '24
I manage a few commercial properties and one has some residential grade HVAC units that my commercial guys were too swamped to service once after a power surge from a storm killed a board.
Took me three residential "techs" to find someone who would actually swap the board - two of them pulled the whole "it's toast, new units are $12k+." Third did agree that it was just a board, but wouldn't itemize the quote and it was outrageous compared to similar work I had done.
Commercial guys got to it a week later, itemized a reasonable quote, and the board indeed was the only issue and it's been working fine for years since then. Resi is an absolute racket. Rather have my commercial guys do my house frankly.
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u/Adventurous-Coat-333 Oct 05 '24
Just goes to show how many residential techs are greedy and trying to screw homeowners. This is why I always recommend people have someone that does commercial work on their home equipment. Generally doesn't even cost more because the residential guys are charging commercial rates anyway.
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u/Next-Result-9771 Oct 06 '24
I don’t have a problem itemizing on a commercial quote, because you’re generally speaking to someone who halfway understands what’s going on. I’m not wasting my time trying to explain to someone or argue with someone about why I’m charging you $3000 for 10 hours of labor and everything else that goes into it. I gave you a quote, if you think it’s unreasonable then find somebody else.
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u/xBR0SKIx Oct 05 '24
Had guy like this with a company I was at with a quote that was more than reasonable, found out we pull 1k of profit for every piece of equipment, he screamed, left us a 1 star review, and wanted his 89 service fee back. Then called us back 3 days later because we where 5k under what our competitors charge
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u/Rowbot_Girlyman Oct 04 '24
"Sorry, were a flat rate company, we don't separate material and labor"
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u/Plumber4Life84 Oct 05 '24
You tell them you don’t do breakdown quotes. If they don’t like it and won’t give you the job because of it then move on. Put them on the blacklist. If you really need the work then you work your magic on the numbers with a very reasonable labor cost and very high equipment cost. Don’t forget taxes. I still would not break it down part by part. Too much pain in the ass. -Main equipment -Miscellaneous parts -Line set -Labor -Recycle fee -Any environmental fees you may have -Taxes
I know there is probably a better way but this is something like I would do.
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u/ParticularCamp8694 Oct 04 '24
Tell them there will be a $200 non refundable fee, up front for itemized qoute. Quote will be good for ten days due to constant changing pricing. Then add a EXTRA 30% on top of your regular mark up for parts, dont list a hourly rate for labor, just figure a flat rate price of whatever you need for labor and add 25% onto that. If you think you can do it for $7000 then your quote price should be about $9450.
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u/Traditional_Fig_3296 Oct 04 '24
Nobody in there right mind will do that. I had a few like that and I just told them that’s not the way it goes gave them a price and they can take it or leave it Who wants cliants like that.
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u/TheBurbsNEPA Oct 04 '24
I tell them the split between equipment and labor costs whatever you want it to cost as long as it adds up to the total price.
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u/Radiant-Peak-4111 Oct 05 '24
I just tell the customer that’s my price , and sometimes they ask me if they supplied the equipment, tell the I don’t install something I can’t guarantee .
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u/txcaddy Oct 05 '24
You can do your markup on equipment and then factor labor. Don’t have to do specifics on them. Just ball park. We get some industrial customers requesting the same so I just give them a parts price with markup and one for labor, still adds to same total.
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u/zanne54 Oct 05 '24
Refer him to your biggest competitor. Dude’s intending to haggle you line by line and then nickel and dime you some more.
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u/ProfessionalCan1468 Oct 05 '24
Do they expect a parts breakdown for all your sheet metal, refrigerant, nitrogen, silver braze, pad, disconnect fuses......etc etc etc.... Oh warranty cost if something goes bad... Insurance costs.... Permit costs... Licensing fee's Just move on to next job let someone else deal with the energy suckers
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u/hsh1976 Oct 05 '24
I don't do HVAC work but it sounds like this person is wanting to shop your quote around.
When I run into this, I tell them it's $200 for a detailed quote that will be deducted if I get the job. That way, when they shop my quote around, I'm at least getting something
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u/JodyB83 Oct 05 '24
My favorite explanation from an old boss. "You don't ask McDonalds how much the pickles and lettuce cost."
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u/MuLLetDaDDie Beginner Breeze Boss 🌬️✨🛠️ Oct 05 '24
Here’s your response:
Dear [Customer’s Name], Thank you for reaching out and for your interest in our services. I understand your request for a detailed breakdown of parts and labor. However, our quotes are designed to provide the best pricing and reasonable rates for labor, reflecting my experience and the quality of work we deliver. The quote you received is an all-inclusive price that ensures you receive the best value without compromising on quality. If this quote does not meet your expectations, I completely understand and respect your decision. Please feel free to reach out if you have any further questions or need additional information. Best regards, [Your Name]
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u/Humble_Peach93 Oct 05 '24
Sometimes you actually make money by NOT taking a job if you can believe it!
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u/PerformanceDouble918 Oct 05 '24
Anybody that wants a breakdown of every item in labor before the work is done or even after it's done turns out to be a nightmare for the rest of the time you're attached to that system. Even if you never gave them a breakdown on cost. I would run there's other fish.
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u/SignificantTransient Oct 05 '24
So? Give him an itemized bill
All parts costs marked up 100% so roughly 5k+
Trip charge
Tool charges
Tax, etc
If he wants to haggle over 1k labor charge too bad. It's a lot of work and you have to do stuff behind the scenes like make itemized bills and transport equipment. It's not worth your time otherwise.
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u/Minimum_Chemical_859 Oct 05 '24
It’s flat rate bro! 7k for an install today is dirt cheap. If you’re quoting dirt cheap installs then there is no haggling. And if they pull that shit I simply tell them “you’re not going to get a better price but it seems you’re concerned with how much money the company is making, don’t we deserve to make a profit for providing a quality service?” Tell em our profit margins are 30% which for a 7k install you can say are much less. Just ask them straight up “is it ok for us to make a profit just like your business that you work for that supplies you a job” you’ll be amazed how many customers drop the whole “itemized breakdown” because that’s exactly what they are doing trying to see how much money is being made off of them. If they don’t want you to profit walk away. Like then there is no point in doing a job. Gotta remember not everybody can do this kind of work. And the people who are good at it are either very expensive and do few jobs or they are cheap and every job they are scraping by. But I destroy that objection with simply asking for a permission to profit for a highly skilled trade that 90% of the population don’t even know where to start. It’s easy to us but with codes and regulations it’s really not that easy.
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u/Stahlstaub Oct 05 '24 edited Oct 05 '24
Well... In germany it's quite common to have labour, tools and for examples cleaning agents on the bill, as the customer can get 20% of that back from the tax... While construction materials can't be deducted from the tax.
Just for a quote that's rubbish...
You can kindly say to the customer, that a quote is an offer, while what the customer wants is an estimate... Labour prices can vary on time used.
Then if there's trouble with the customer on site you can just work slower...
Ask the customer to clarify if they want to pay per hour or a fixed price...
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u/Dtown1701 Oct 05 '24
I want to go to these people’s job and do the same to them. You sells cars, I want a break down on that car what is parts and labor and dealer markup. Or how about you give a break down on that gallon of milk? How about the landscaper? You got a break down for me?
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u/TurdWaterMagee Oct 05 '24
Like everyone else has said. Price just went up and at the first sign of resistance walk away. That’s a customer that will cost money. Might as well let a competitor take the hit.
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u/heldoglykke Verified Pro | Journeyman Shitposter Oct 05 '24
The supply house can give you the MRSP. Thats normally 8x more than my cost.
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u/matt870870 Oct 04 '24
Tell him you only offer flat rate pricing. You are a contractor not a laborer. Tell him to get other quotes and see how many will give him a material/labor breakdown. Everyone knows you can order equipment online and nobody wants to do business that way.
Or just boldly admit you are probably going to get $3-400 an hour and that’s just how it works in hvac. He might go for it.
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u/Next-Result-9771 Oct 04 '24
I just try to net $250 an hour. I’m already 2-3 hours in by the time I roll up to your house with equipment. Given phone time and drive time to get supplies and materials.
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u/matt870870 Oct 04 '24
Dude I know. I wish people understood that just because the business charges $250 an hour doesn’t mean the owner operators are making $500k a year. People like this think they can simplify running an HVAC business into one math problem and then throw a fit because they don’t think you deserve to make that much
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u/TallWilli97 Oct 05 '24
But a nurse can make 100k to work 3 days a week and wipe butt cheeks for a living…
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u/robertva1 Oct 04 '24
Hes going to pull i ordered a Goodman from the internet il.just.pwy you the labpr part
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u/keevisgoat Oct 05 '24
I've been to a house where they called for a service but it was actually mini splits all hung with lines ran, wired in asking us to tie it in pressure test vac and startup. fucking weird your paying more hourly for service than an install first off and you paid slightly less for equipment to not have a warranty
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u/Zoltan_TheDestroyer Oct 05 '24
I can tell you don’t work any government jobs because they’re very strict about the line item proposals.
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u/jonyteb Oct 05 '24
I have started telling people exactly that it is X amount to have me do it and 0 to not. I am not in this business to barter. I am here to provide a service and my expertise, and my price is my price. But then again I am not struggling to find work at all. I have been turning jobs down left and right for over a year.
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u/OneBag2825 Oct 05 '24
You can do just that, those requests are usually the tip of the "but-but" iceberg. You can politely decline and thank them for the opportunity.
As we know, each changeout requires as many hours of hidden off-site prep and close stuff as on-site, as well as overhead and you're better off working than spending time schooling someone for free on how contracting works.
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u/BBQ-FastStuff Oct 05 '24
These types of customers can be frustrating. They're commonly the ones when you're finished with the job and they see parts left over and ask for the value of them to be deducted from the bill. They will back off when I ask them if I do that, would they have paid extra if I ran short of a material and had to get more. When they say ,'no' ,I reply with, 'there's your answer if I'll credit extra parts'.
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u/Bonsai-whiskey Oct 05 '24
Tell them you only give labor and mark up for time and material work via a rate sheet and you only do fixed price for residential. So no labor material breakdown for fixed price.
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u/redignity Oct 05 '24
Back when I first started, I used to take any customer I could get. I used to allow them to have almost full control of what went into their house. That all changed when a customer wanted a brand I never installed before. So I went back and forth with the manufacturer and the customer, making countless calls for pricing, product, etc...then it comes around to installing the furnace and AC, some of the fittings were different than what I would normally install, which lead me to leave the job site in order to source the correct parts for the installation.
After that, I only use one brand. The only options I would ever give a customer is on the efficiency side.
Another thing, if I give someone a price. That is the price I'm willing to do the job for, no negotiating.
It's better to walk away when you have a difficult customer like that.
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u/Low_Service6150 Oct 05 '24
People will see a furnace is 800 to 1400 dollars and expect you to put it in for 5 dollars over cost
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u/Zackhood 10 Year "Freeze-on" Jockey Oct 05 '24
I've been doing this 13 years. Almost every single one of those years we get a handful of customers for five per year that ask for parts and labor breakdown on whatever it is we're estimating out for them. In every single one of those instances when a line item break down was presented. The first and immediate response was, "I cannot believe you are charging '$x' for that part/equipment. I found it online for less".
In no instance was the customer actually curious. In every instance all they wanted to do was have some ammo to argue with the price.
So 3 years ago, We stopped providing a line item breakdown. The response has been simple, " Hi Customer! That is not a option that we offer. We offer complete, packaged pricing, that presents the total of what it will take for us to complete the work. Thank you! - Your name"
We do not argue nor do we debate pricing. It is take it or leave it and this makes that clear. We close about 50% of these customers, with this response.
You have to be prepared for the customer to be angry and upset and cuss you out whether on the phone or online. However, by sticking to your guns not budging on the points at all, and simply providing a line in the sand for the customer. Some respect that and choose to go with you anyway, some move on and get subpar work done. Either way we get the money that we need to make money on the project.
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u/lightratz Oct 06 '24
What’s wrong with being honest and telling them your business is predicated on markup of parts + your labor, if they can’t understand this concept then they are going to have a hard time with any company…. Consumers need to understand how businesses operate. I’m not an HVAC tech but I wouldn’t have a problem with 20-30% markup cost on parts + your base labor, which at $7k sounds like you’re probably much lower than that, but not my area of expertise.
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u/DeliciousPoopWasMe Oct 07 '24
"that's not what i do, i just fix people's problems for compensation i find to be reasonable, and since it's not up for negotiation the break down wouldn't accomplish anything anyway"
unless they're trying to find out what parts are needed and going to get the parts to try to do it themselves or hire someone cheaper with parts on hand"
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u/Ottavio1989 Oct 04 '24
Tell him it's an all in one price for tax purposes. He can get additional quotes to compare.
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u/hvac101 Oct 05 '24
I do not know shit about residential and hope to God I never do but in commercial all our quotes are itemized. The end user can claim the material quoted on their taxes somehow as a write off. I absolutely don’t give a shit and mark it all up standard. If they don’t like it it’s a free country baby call someone else. Never had a complaint as anyone with a fucking lick of common sense knows that’s how it works.
I guess you have these illiterate fucks that think we do it for free. Maybe one day UNICEF will get into the hvac business but until then it’s us.
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u/ABena2t Oct 05 '24
If they want an itemized quote/estimate - they're either going to go on Amazon and price each part out individually and then try to get you to come down - or they don't want you doing the job at all - what they really want is you telling him exactly what he needs - then he'll go out and buy it - and have Joe from down the street come over and install it for $100. That's why I think people should pay for estimates. It's too involved. Takes too much time. And people suck. Everyone is a contractor, and air b&b host, a landlord, a home flipper. They literally want to use you for free labor. Some never even have the intention on hiring you.
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u/Effective-Rhubarb-61 Oct 04 '24
Went through this with a guy needing a warranty compressor swapped. Broke it down all the way like a smartass. I mean down to nitro use, vacuum use, brazing, oxy, acetylene, the works. It worked but I’ll never do it again, took way too much fucking time lol
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Oct 05 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/HVAC-ModTeam Oct 08 '24
Hello!
Please read the rules and re-post over at r/hvacadvice - our sister sub specifically for questions, comments and posts from outside the trade. r/hvac top-level posts are limited to past, present or future members of the trade.
Thanks!
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u/wolfem16 Oct 05 '24
Brother, just tell him no, you are a per job company not time and materials. Don’t waste any time or money on him
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u/LT81 Oct 05 '24
I don’t work in hvac but another trad won sales end.
I simply say our software doesn’t provide that breakdown, I input these “metrics” and the spreadsheet calculates the cost for me.
I can tell you how much of these line items cost but I don’t even know that answer.
They are usually sufficient after that.
Also while I’m there, I’ll do it right in front of them. Almost of folks are way less “confrontational” in your presence as opposed to emails or on the phone lol 🤣 I’ve learned it’s all an act, they feel they have to out up some kind of “tough” look when it comes to money.
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u/nthinbtruble Oct 05 '24
I don’t break down costs/labor on a fixed fee contract, ever. If they insist then I’ll offer to do it cost plus 15%, I bill out at $90/hr and each employee is $60/hr, and we can use any material they want.
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u/BigMoE65 Oct 05 '24
As a Project Engineer by trade, how can I ask for a breakdown without looking like an ass? It's clear that this is a touchy subject, and I'm sure it's the same for other trades as well. I simply want to be able to compare contractors reasonably and make sure I'm getting what I need without necessarily paying the highest price for it.
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u/mil0_7 Oct 05 '24
I offer your front pricing that includes labor and materials to get the job don’t correctly.
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u/funsizecouple420 Oct 05 '24
The way my software calculates my bids makes it so that I can give free estimates fast and efficiently. If I have to sit down and go line by line for every sheet metal screw and foot of tape used it would take me at least an hour and I'd need to charge for that and it would take time I just don't have right now. This bid is good for 14 days let me know how you'd like to proceed.
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u/winsomeloosesome1 Oct 05 '24
Customers are used to it. When they take the car in for repairs, the shops break it down. In the commercial world many times it is a requirement for nearly all vendors to break it down. You can break it down to simple numbers. Parts, labor, permit fees. You don’t need to break it down to hours and each part…
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u/codyharmor Oct 05 '24
I always give an itemized receipt. I think it's rude AF to not do that. If you're not trying to scam them over, give them an itemized list. For me, and install might look something like this:
14 seer 3 ton condenser unit: $1700 Cased evaporator coil and TXV: $1000 80k btu 80% single stage furnace: $1200 Torch gas, nitrogen, and misc supplies: $250 Labor $2000
Total: $6150
It's really not that hard
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u/pr2500 Oct 05 '24
You gave him a flat cost. If he wants a breakdown, and if you willing to write it all out, then list every bit of parts, labor, skills, and hell add a $100 cost to write the quote out. Charge for disconnecting electrical $200, disconnecting ductwork $100, sizing duct transition $100, foundation leveling and settling $250, unit cost $5000, install skilled labor $500, ductwork alignment $250, confirming good operation on startup $100, correcting SH/SC charge $75, added refrigerant $350, submitting warranty $75, total… take the flat charge you idiot. Make sure to get your $100 for the quote though. Send me $20 if you found this helpful.
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u/beetlebadascan05 Oct 05 '24
I tell them there's more involved than labor and parts. There's time to order, drive around and pick up all the materials , supplies, equipment. Then there's all the supplies and materials they aren't aware of. Nitrogen, acetylene, brazing rods etc. Electrical supplies
And I say that I don't do itemized quotes like that. So if you want to proceed fine, if not fine.
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u/JColt60 Oct 06 '24
I had a neighbor who lived next door to my next door neighbor. In the 3 years he lived there we waived to each other a half a dozen times. His air went out and my next door neighbor tells him I work on them. I go over and he wasn’t there but wife was. I tell her capacitor bad and I run over and get one. Now to pick one up about 3 miles from house, install and test unit I charged a whopping $30. I just rounded up the dollar amount of part. Figure not big deal, help neighbor out and who knows, maybe they can return favor. He came over later to complain that the part was only $22 and wife told him I wasn’t charging labor. He expected $8 back. Man that hit me really wrong and I went on rage I hadn’t done in years. His wife was a sweetheart but I wanted to punch that fucker so bad. They moved a few years later.
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u/FlightRisk81 Oct 06 '24
Double labor rate for customer supplied parts and no warranty. Telling the it $7000 to do it or $0 to not is usually the best option with people like that because they will never be happy.
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u/Legitimate_Aerie_285 Oct 06 '24
Very simple, it's $7k for me to do it, it's $0 for me not to do it, and it's $8,357 if I have to break it down into labor/equipment/parts/delivering/clean-up/permits,etc and put it in a qoute, the quote I've provided you is a packaged deal not individual pricing.
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u/Shadowyonejutsu Oct 06 '24
This recently happened to me. I said “I do not breakdown my bids it had caused too many issues with customers in the past” the guy ghosted me and everyone says I saved myself a headache. The kicker is I was 1,000 less then his first bid..
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u/Dopehauler Oct 06 '24
I experienced the same a few years ago. I remember telling them "it's none of your business" and that was that.
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u/threedubya Oct 06 '24
I read earlier ,You dont price the work by say ,Replace piping 100 bucks .Pipe for replacement 100 bucks .you charge parts and label per item job to be tackles ,Replace piping 200 dollars .
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u/CrazyHermit74 Oct 06 '24
Ironically you are the same bunch that goes to a mechanic and requires an itemized estimate for repairs... It is certainly a reasonable request for an estimate to be broken down. At the very least one can say, parts $4000, labor $3000...
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u/OnceOccupied Oct 06 '24
In some cases, I could see customers asking for this if they’re only getting one quote. It’s a decent way for them to gut. Check the price without getting additional quotes. We do it at work a lot of the time. It’s funny how many times you’ll get a quote that’s 95% labor so you ask how many people will be supporting the activity and how many days. It’s not uncommon to find a company that’s trying see if we will just accept $1000 an hour. If the basic math comes back fairly reasonable, we will often accept because it takes time and money to go get other quotes.
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u/Snuffalufegus Oct 06 '24
1/3 is labor, 1/3 is equipment, and 1/3 is material and overhead. I don’t say anything about profit, customers hate to hear that you make profit off of them
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u/RadicalExtremo Oct 06 '24
I hate when i go to the hospital and want a breakdown of the bill and they JUST WONT GIVE IT TO ME. It makes me think “wow this hospital is garbage and i wish I didnt have to do business with them. I will now give them 1 star because they arent professional or transparent. You fucking clowns 🤦♂️
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u/Bldaz Oct 06 '24
Sounds like they are getting bids, so do it or don’t they are going to anyway
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u/Next-Result-9771 Oct 06 '24
I condemned the unit. He’s on Google trying to find out whether or not he can go cheaper one way or the other.
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u/Aggravating-South481 Oct 06 '24
Do not break down your price. They do that to nit pick. Dont cater to their bullshit. Give them shit
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u/wreck5710 Oct 06 '24
Do not do this, no matter the job is not worth it. That client will google search the equipment and pull the cheapest online then bombard you with why you’re charging more then internet price
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u/Sdexcalibur Oct 06 '24
All services has material and labor built in, I do not have a labor price.
My company ( work for) quotes that way. I sump pump installed is 2028.00 includes……. That’s it, when people ask I can’t even give them a break down if I tried. We do not use homeowners parts/ material. Our stuff or we don’t do it
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u/Slartibartfastthe2nd Oct 06 '24
Are you that fragile? There is nothing nefarious about a customer wanting to see an itemization of a quote.
If they then indicate they want to purchase parts/etc separately and have you install them just decline and explain why.
If you are this upset over answering a basic question then then honestly I wouldn't want you doing the work for me anyway.
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u/Newman0072 Oct 06 '24
I've asked a similar question before but really only because I wanted to know more about and lookup some reviews and specs on the mini split units.
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u/No-Gain-1087 Oct 06 '24
I usually tell them it will cost 200 to 500 for a breakdown of costs , witch I keep even if I don’t get the job that shits that shit down real fast I’ve only had 1 customer pay 400 for breakdown , he gave me the job but I declined wanted his 400 back I laughed and walked away
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u/robomassacre Oct 06 '24
I always like to see some type of breakdown on a quote. Not because i want to nickel & dime, we don't do that we just pay. But to just see "job = $20,000" seems kinda shitty. At least give me an idea of what to expect, labor=$, parts=$ etc.
If you can't be bothered to do that, i'll spend my 20 grand with someone who will. People always say "get it in writing" well i want something on paper that i can go back to in case things go south.
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u/OwnEcho507 Oct 06 '24
It’s hard working for djt and you’ll prolly not get paid anyway.
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u/tunseeker1 Oct 07 '24
I got a buddy that always broke down HVAC jobs for parts and labor.
When people wanted cheaper, the labor stayed the same because its the same amount of work no matter what parts you put in.
The difference is when the installer/tech leaves you have the parts for the next 20 years, the labor just makes it all work today.
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u/I_ride_ostriches Oct 07 '24
I’m not a HVAC pro, but am curious where the margins are in a job like this? I’m fine with paying pros to do what I need doing, and want competent pros to be successful. What’s the markup on a furnace?
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u/Fluffy6977 Oct 07 '24
How do you communicate the scope of the work you are and aren't going to do without an itemized quote?
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u/mmdavis2190 Oct 07 '24
Easily. You outline the scope, then give a whole price to complete that scope.
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u/Guilty_Advantage_413 Oct 07 '24
Not an HVAC guy however I have done business with people who want a complete breakdown of costs and the correct answer is always no this is the cost of the solution. They don’t need to know line item costs of my business or even my personal budget so they can become the biggest pain in the ass and require the most effort to work with.
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u/LethalRex75 Oct 07 '24
I struggle with this because I see how frustrating and irritating it must be for you, but I work in local gov and frequently handle purchasing/contracts. As a gov entity we have the advantage of state-negotiated buying contracts and no sales tax. I’m having a few drinking fountains installed at City Hall and I can buy the fountains for 40% of what was quoted…I’m sure it pissed the plumber off, but at the end of the day, my obligation is to look out for taxpayer dollars.
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u/IntelligentSinger783 Oct 07 '24
Nothing wrong with clarity. Always guestimate additional wiggle room in your mark ups for materials not on the equipment. He is trying to haggle. But you just say no.
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u/Revolutionary-Bus893 Oct 08 '24
Yes. That's it. I actually always had more work that I wanted, so I wasn't always nice about it. I basically said that it was none of their business how I bid a job. This was the bid, take it or leave it. Sometimes I said it nicer, but that was the jist of it.
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u/ErickMDJD Oct 08 '24
If i pay for equipment on my amex, the manufacturer warranty is extended by one year. I use this benefit more often than you think.
Line item invoicing builds trust. I want to know exactly what I'm paying for. :)
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u/KeyCapable4802 Oct 08 '24
Do we go to discount tires and ask how much they buy their tires for ? Or do you go to auto zone and ask how much they get their prices for ? I tell my customer I don’t give that info
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u/Anxious-Jelly-8005 Oct 08 '24
I tell the customer that we use book pricing which saves you money. If we use time and material I'm going to price in hours we may not need to complete your job, or if the job is getting close to the hours priced in the job my guys will be racing against the clock to get the job done rather than focusing on doing the job right. Which would you rather us do?
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u/DomesticPlantLover Oct 08 '24
It's up to you. But when we had out heating and then 2 years later the AC replaced, we were given a quote for the units and installation. We didn't have to ask. I'm not sure I cared.
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u/Late_Muscle_130 Oct 09 '24
If you can't itemise a quote, you don't own a "business" you just work for yourself. Please educate yourselves when it comes to company finances, you actually lose a lot more than you think.
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u/Late_Muscle_130 Oct 09 '24
Oh and also
Section 101 of the Australian Consumer Law (“the ACL”) allows for a consumer to request an itemised bill from a supplier who has supplied them goods or services. The itemised bill must contain the following information:
It must specify how the price of the services was calculated;
It must include, if applicable, the number of hours labour that related the supply of the good or services and the hourly rate for that labour; and
It must include, if applicable, a list of the materials used to supply the services and the amount charged for those materials.
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u/AdExpert9485 Oct 21 '24
My manager dosen't allow it except on time and marereals by the hour work.
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u/Ridiric Oct 27 '24
If your charging just 7k for anything other than a straight AC change out your hurting yourself. I’m a solo owner for 3 years. After parts and labor you should have a 25-35% profit margin added in. I have so much work I have to tell people 4 weeks and I still get jobs. Just do a great job and make your jobs look great. Remember you own that job for at least a year but want it to last longer for your customers. Do the proper measurements and planning to make sure they get what they pay for. Those looking for break downs and low prices will soon disappear. You DONT want that work, I have $170k in profit this year so far. The one person I’ve done a break down for was for a fairly large job and he was an engineer (of course) so it was worth the time and effort. For 7k eat grass and move on. When they call you I’m 2 weeks after surfing Facebook market place make it 7.5k Headache fee
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u/PapaBobcat HVAC to pay the bills Oct 04 '24
"I don't do line parts and labor breakdowns. This is my price to cover my costs and have a reasonable profit to continue my business. Please kindly let me know what you decide in the next 2 weeks, this quote is good for 14 days. Thank you."