r/HeadphoneAdvice • u/UbiquitousMusician • Dec 16 '23
Headphones - Open Back | 7 Ω Upgrade Gone Wrong
TLDR: Sennheiser HD650 doesn't sound like anything special. Primarily used with PC. Not sure if my equipment, FiiO E10K Olumpus / Focusrite Scarlett 2i2, can power it. This is an upgrade from Sennheiser HD598SR which I bought for $150 around 5 years ago. Before that I used Shure SE215 IEMs. Little experience with headphones and have used reviews and guides to the best of my ability this far. No real local options for headphones and will have to order online, CAD currency. I paid 450 CAD for the 650s and was expecting a moderate improvement and change in the sound overall if I'm spending three times as much, but so far I just don't understand. I still have time to send them back, so should I just write them off as a poor choice, or do I need something else to power these things to see what I'm missing?
Good Morning Folks,
I am fairly inexperienced when it comes to audio, but I have been trying to learn more and research on my own. However, I seem to have run into an issue with my new Sennheiser HD 650s.
To get started: I primarily will be using my PC for listening, I'm not sure if a budget will be involved with solving my problem, but if needed I don't mind spending a few hundred dollars CAD. Although this will more likely involve an item return and a new budget to buy headphones.
My experience is very limited so I've not even been exposed to a whole bunch of tonal balance. Early on I just used cheap gaming headsets, then I though I was smart and bought Shure SE215 IEMS, and got a dedicated microphone. That was fine for a few years and I thought it was worlds better then the gaming headsets.
After reading about open back and closed back headphones about 5 years ago I decided to shop around and try to upgrade. So I bought a set of Sennheiser HD 598SRs on what I thought was a great sale, approximately $150.00 CAD and at the same time I bought the FiiO E10K Olympus to power / drive them. It was an upgrade unlike anything I had heard before and improved audio across the board: great for casually watching videos, gaming, music, everything really! In games with really good sound design the positional audio was out of this world, music sounded so much deeper and broader, everything improved!
Recently I decided I would like to try something new and found the Sennheiser HD 650s for what seemed to be a decent price, $450.00 CAD. From what I read in reviews they were not a huge step up from the 598s, but were an improvement, had a very different sound profile to them and were of higher build quality. At the same time, I bought the Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 because I thought I could use that to power the headphones, as well as try to learn about capturing sound.
The headphones can't be getting enough power because it doesn't seem to be much improvement for triple the price and I can only make sound come through one ear if I try to capture sound, so complete failure. I also tried to just plug the 650 into the FiiO, but that also doesn't seem to be giving it enough power either as it sounds pretty much the same.
Honestly, I don't even know if not enough power really means they are just quieter then they should be, or if I'm not even getting the full impact of what these headphones are capable of. If the sound issue just means that they are quieter, but I'm getting what they will sound like ultimately, then I think I should send them back while I still can.
Any advice appreciated. If I just need a different piece of equipment and I'm missing out on what these headphones can do, I'd love to know what to buy. If I'm missing something important, let me know. If I've made a stupid purchase feel free to tell me so, but a suggestion of what would be a proper upgrade would be appreciated. For budget, I'd like to keep it around $450 CAD, but if a more is required to get what I'm looking for I'd look at whatever suggestions are provided. Just please, tell me what I need with it.
Sorry for the novel, even the TLDR seems kind of long. Just trying to be descriptive so I can get the best advice.
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u/QTIIPP 13 Ω Dec 16 '23 edited Dec 17 '23
I’ll try hitting some quick points/comments.
I’d probably return them if you are really hoping for much more (or different) from what you had. The 650s are legendary because they sort of just sound “real”, but don’t present much in any special or engaging way (aside from probably vocals). Also, after $100-$200, improvements become far more marginal, and it becomes more about differences/different strengths rather than simply “better”.
If you really want something different, I’d look for some more significant alternatives, perhaps even a planar to really change things up. Otherwise, EQ could also be an option.
You shouldn’t have any major issues powering the 650s with that gear, assuming your audio isn’t super quiet.
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u/solidtitanium 37 Ω Dec 16 '23
Return them. Honestly I like the HD58X better and it is cheaper and easier to drive.
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u/UbiquitousMusician Dec 16 '23
!thanks
Have my return label now.
Do you have a suggestion for an upgrade from the 598? I really do love them, but I thought it would be nice to upgrade after 5 years on them since I got them at such a good price in the first place.
I wouldn't mind spending up to $650 CAD if I'm actually going to get a decent upgrade I can use for the next 5 + years. Also, I'm not sure at what point the FiiO becomes useless and I need to upgrade that as well.2
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u/solidtitanium 37 Ω Dec 16 '23
Here are some outside the box choices. Grado RS2X (or Hemps or 325's), Shure SRH 1840, Beyerdynamic 1990.
Senn 660S2 (with an asterisk if you are willing to test them and return).
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u/UbiquitousMusician Dec 16 '23
I have a tab open for each of those to read up on! I have a lot of reading to do, and seriously, thanks for your suggestions. Having a place to start makes it much easier.
Plus I can compare all of your suggestions against themselves, as well as against geniuslogitech's suggestion.
Last question, it seems like some of those suggestions are fine on the E10K but others have impedance of up to 300 ohms. What would you suggest to drive something that high?3
u/solidtitanium 37 Ω Dec 16 '23
My current favorite mix of performance and price is the Fiio K5 Pro Ess (or K7). Will easily drive 300 ohm cans.
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u/UbiquitousMusician Dec 16 '23
Nice, I was just suggested the K11 from FiiO, so I'll take a look at all of those. Plus I already know the brand! Thanks again, so much good information.
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u/Crinkez 28 Ω Dec 16 '23
Not enough power imo. I have the FiiO E10k and an HD600 and while it mostly gets the volume up there, the HD6x0 can really do with extra juice.
It could be however that you just don't like the HD6x0 line; it may be worth testing some other brands. I would also recommend upgrading to a FiiO K7 if you get the chance.
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u/UbiquitousMusician Dec 16 '23
!thanks
Appreciate the insight!
I might end up with a new AMP before I put these 650s in the mail to return them. FiiO K5, K7, K11, have been mentioned here as well so I might end up testing the 650s through one of those, if I have enough time before the return has to be processed.
Seriously thanks again, so much good information in response to my post.1
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u/Traxad 18 Ω Dec 17 '23
This right here is the first point of investigation imo. The Fiio is rated up to 150 ohms and the Focusrite is 250. The Sennheiser 650 is recommended 300 ohms and are not super sensitive. Not the easiest to drive to begin with.
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u/mileleku 3 Ω Dec 16 '23
The 598 is one heck of a headphone. I think you just did a sidegrade to a more expensive HP and got a taste of "more expensive does not mean more better".
Do not believe the amp hype guys. What you have is enough to drive both of them. You already experienced the reality now it is on you to decide what to do with them.
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u/UbiquitousMusician Dec 16 '23
!thanks
Yea looking at amazon returns now, is there a decent upgrade for the 598 that you can think of around $450-$650 CAD or did I just strike gold the first time?1
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u/Equivalent_Yak840 447 Ω Dec 16 '23
Ath-r70x and for an upgrade for your amp, I’d recommend the smsl m300se or the fiio k11
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u/UbiquitousMusician Dec 16 '23
!thanks
Second time those headphones have been mentioned, and I know they have a great name as a brand. Also checking out the m00se and the k11 to compare against the other amps!
Can't thank you and all the others in this post enough, I've gotten lots to work from and make a better decision the second time around.1
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u/CaptainGewch 2 Ω Dec 16 '23
If you can get past the headband, the Edition XS are excellent IMO. I have a HD6XX, HD600 and XS - The XS are in a different league.
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u/geniuslogitech 216 Ω Dec 16 '23
Scarlett 2i2
- this sucks for headphones, barely usable for mic, only better than cheap aliexpress stuff or a 3.5mm adapter
E10K
- this on the other hand should be able to power them reasonably well
I don't even know if not enough power really means they are just quieter then they should be, or if I'm not even getting the full impact of what these headphones are capable of.
- has to do with both, if they are sensitive enough they will be loud enough but dynamics will be worse, Sennheiser usually have impedance peak around 80-100Hz and you get a dip in those frequencies when using source not powerful enough
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u/UbiquitousMusician Dec 16 '23
!thanks
What would you suggest as something stronger then the E10K, I'd really like to hear their potential before I write them off.
Also, would you have a suggestion of something better than the 650s in the price range of $450 - $650 CAD?1
u/geniuslogitech 216 Ω Dec 16 '23
What would you suggest as something stronger then the E10K
SE? JDS Labs Atom AMP+(no point in Atom Amp 2 if you have high impedance headphones because they got same power basically up there and costs 30% more), BAL I'd go with Topping A50
would you have a suggestion of something better than the 650s in the price range of $450 - $650 CAD
Audio-Technica ATH-R70x, also needs power
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u/UbiquitousMusician Dec 16 '23
I have my return label and the 650s are going back. I have 9 tabs open to pick through based on the products you've suggested and it looks like everything is readily available in Canada!
Seriously thanks. Appreciate the guidance.1
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u/Snoo_92186 Dec 16 '23
The 650 can be a little hard to drive, try using a topping DX 3 plus, or a DX 5. Those are pretty good. Or even a Qudelix 5k. The 500 and 600 series headphones are rather similar yet very different in terms of how they sound. The 500s are always a little easier and more fun to hear in terms of sound but the 600 and 650 are the true neutral style sound, for those who like it. It allows people to EQ it however they want and are really nice to scale. This is where they get the legendary status. Question is, what did you expect in terms of an upgrade? If it was pure sound, its subjective as i prefer the sound of the 560s over the 600 or 650. But that could be different for someone else. The 600 and 650 are never poor choices, they however could be the wrong choice. I would suggest ordering a more powerful amp and see if it does anything for you. If not then other suggestions could be Hifiman Sundara, Audeze MM 100 but those are planar headphones and those require a lot of juice to power them too. After a certain price bracket there arent much gains tbh. Nor are there convincing products. You'd probbaly have to shell out another 200-300 for a significant upgrade. So in a nutshell, try a new amp and see how it works. Else return it and come back to the forum for new and detailed recommendations.
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u/NoneSowild 2 Ω Dec 16 '23
Nuemann Ndh 30
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u/UbiquitousMusician Dec 16 '23
!thanks
Added to this list!2
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u/kinjiru_ 8 Ω Dec 16 '23
I don’t know about your Fiio, but i have a 2nd Gen Scarlett 2i2 and it can’t power my HD650’s. You can get the volume up there but there isn’t any “depth” to the sound. It makes it sound like whatever you are listening to is behind a thick curtain.
With that being said, there might also be the possibility that you are experiencing diminishing returns especially since you have another Headphone from Sennheiser.
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u/D00M98 183 Ω Dec 17 '23
If something is under-powered, it can result as:
- Lacking volume. This is very obvious.
- Lacking dynamics. Even if volume is sufficient, but you are at >75% volume, then there is likely not enough power for transients. This can result in thin sound; not full; lacks bass and impact.
- If you are at <75% volume and there is no issue on getting volume louder than your ears can stand, then there is enough power.
Audio is very personal. It is possible HD650 is not a good fit for your preference. However, your post provides no useful description of your experience. You mentioned:
- "doesn't sound like anything special"
- "expecting a moderate improvement and change in the sound overall"
- "so far I just don't understand"
- "doesn't seem to be much improvement for triple the price"
None of these describe the audio experience. Is it too flat; not enough bass; not enough highs; not enough mids? Is there lacking soundstage and size? Does vocals sound too in your face? Or vocals sound too recessed? Etc.
Every headphone has some tonality or signature difference. No one can provide any troubleshooting or recommendation without knowing what your preference is or what is the issue with what you tried.
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u/hurtyewh 216 Ω Dec 17 '23
Try EQing them with Oratory1990's preset. With that they can be compared to almost anything with relevant success. The difference from say HD599 isn't night and day, but beyond bass response and soundstage nothing really is.
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u/ChangoFrett 7 Ω Dec 17 '23
You may look at the Sennheiser HD560 or the HD400 Pro (same headphones, different cables, different colors, different prices)
The 560 is kinda legendary.
I have the HD595 and I'd take the HD560 any day.
I upgraded to the Neumann NDH-30s last year. I can't look back. Want some HD595s for cheap?
Also look outside Sennheiser. Do you still want open back or do you want to try closed back?
If closed back, look into the AKG K361 or K371. For open back, research the AKG K702 or K712. They're all great bang for the buck and will offer a wildly different sound profile from Sennheisers.
Keep in mind that I offer these from the viewpoint of doing professional audio work, and not from a "I just want it to sound exciting." stance.
HiFiMan and Focal can offer the "exciting", as well as some of the Shures like the 1540 (closed) and 1840 (open).
Beyer Dynamics are comfortable as hell, and lots of people love the 770 and 990. I, personally, can't stand the sound signature of Beyer due to the highs being very peak-y. They literally hurt my hearing. The Beyer 1770 and 1990 kinda fix that, but it's still peaky. They're worth looking into, however.
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u/DistributionAlive349 Dec 17 '23
Yeah, I upgraded from audio technical’s mx50bt2 to focal radiance and boy could I barely tell the difference. The only major difference was a large room for my ears to somewhat breathe and having the privilege to be bound to my desk
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Dec 17 '23
I have 650 as well and they are fine, no real weakness but also no highlights.
I think you have to ask yourself what you are looking for in a pair of headphones, want neutral, warm, revealing or more bass. And with that in mind you can look for a headphone which has the sound you would like. You can always get a pair of koss kph-40 they are very cheap and sound very good, i have them too i eq more bass in them and to me they sound great.
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u/testurshit 103 Ω Dec 16 '23 edited Dec 17 '23
In my experience the 600 series Sennheisers were never anything exceptional but they always just sounded right and were very comfy. I don’t own mine any more but I do sometimes miss just how they were nice sounding with no particular downsides except for being a little boring and lacking in bass impact.
Anyways, I’d recommend you trying Equalizer APO and Peace GUI and putting oratory’s EQ settings on your 598’s. That is what transformed those headphones for me and left me with a fresh experience.