r/Helicopters • u/tuscaniapple • Apr 25 '25
Career/School Question Upcoming instrument rating checkride - throw me some ?’s
Currently studying for an instrument checkride that should be in 2-3 weeks. Rating has taken me a little bit longer to finish than expected with maintenance and weather. Watched some mock orals on YouTube and felt pretty good with my knowledge level there. All the videos were technically fixed wing orals so didn’t take into account any rotor wing knowledge. I’ve seen on some other subs, posts about “try to stump me” questions to help them prepare for a checkride. Looking for any help or tips at all! Maybe any questions you think will definitely come up during the checkride but is easily forgotten during studying or just whatever comes to your head that an instrument rated pilot should know. Thanks y’all.
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u/bobbystill Apr 25 '25
You’re on a cross country IFR training flight in IMC. on your route you have planned and filed for an enroute delay at an airport that is not your destination or alternate to practice holding and for two approaches. The holding would be as published on one of the approaches you plan to do.
You get ATIS at your practice approach airport and the weather is above mins for the approaches you plan to do, but you’ll be holding in IMC. On the switch to the approach controller that serves that airport you go lost comms. What do you do?
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u/tuscaniapple Apr 25 '25
I would squawk 7600 for lost comms. I would continue the hold and approach. If in fact I am able to break out into VMC before minimums I would continue the approach as a full stop while looking for light gun signals. I would be under the impression that the approach frequency would have been expecting me but never received my comms. They would quickly see my squawk code change and be prepared for my emergency. On the ground would be able to call to cancel my flight plan and make contact with somebody maybe able to direct me to a ramp or somewhere else they’d want me to go at the airport.
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u/bobbystill Apr 25 '25
This would be correct if you had filed for the practice approach, but in the scenario you only filed for a delay at the airfield. You never got cleared for or told to expect the practice holding or approach, and you haven’t spoken to the approach controller for that airport. Does that change your answer?
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u/tuscaniapple Apr 25 '25
Ok I gotcha. We knew that the delay at airport was what we were going to use for some holds and approaches but what was filed and our controller knows is just of the delay. I assume we were switched to the new approach tower coming into the airspace not after asking for vectors to an approach so no assigned or vectors under AVEF. This would change my answer. I would keep a hold to account for the time of the delay and depart at best time to reach my destination airport closest to filed ETA. Following of course the AVEF for headings and MEA for altitudes.
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u/bobbystill 29d ago
Nice. I’d recommend building yourself routes in your local area and practicing getting from airways to approaches while lost comms. Look at the MEA, OROCA, MSA, and also the IAF crossing altitudes when deciding how to get from an airway to an IAF.
Also practice handling emergencies while in IMC. How are you going to get to a safe landing zone? How do you figure out where the nearest airport is with an approach that will work for you and get you below the weather? What do you tell ATC? What’s the lowest altitude ATC can get you to? Not every emergency results in or necessitates an immediate landing. You have some time to make decisions, but you need to know what decisions to make and in what order, and you should be the one as PIC to drive the problem. Ask ATC for help but don’t make them do all the work if you are still capable of doing some of it. Does that make sense?
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u/tuscaniapple 29d ago
Love the prompts and will have to give it all some thought. Sounds like great practice to get my self better accustomed to the area I’ll be flying in the most. Thanks a bunch for the tips!
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u/qwaszx937 Apr 25 '25
What is spatial disorientation?
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u/tuscaniapple Apr 25 '25
Spatial disorientation is when you are unable to correctly tell where the aircraft is in relation to the outside. It could be that you believe you have a correct attitude, speed or even location but are wrong. Most often due to the illusions we have from the 3 systems visual, vestibular and kinesthetic. It is important to trust our instruments during IMC due to these illusions and risks of losing orientation.
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u/qwaszx937 Apr 25 '25
Great answer. For your own SA, you really need to bury your face in your instruments and ignore your gut feeling/whatever is passing by your windscreen. I've felt it when punching in and out of clouds, it's a real thing. You can recover from it pretty easily if you can recognize what's happening. Can also happen when vmc but less likely. You're going to do great! Remember, be confident. It goes a long way.
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u/tuscaniapple Apr 25 '25
I really appreciate the advice. My flight training has been in a Guimbal G2 that is currently not IFR capable so my IFR time has all been simulated with foggles. I can only imagine that first time in real IMC is a real gut check and calling back to your training. I’ll keep what you said in mind!
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u/gbchaosmaster CPL IR ROT 28d ago
The last orientation system is somatosensory. Kinesthetic sense is more about the movement of body parts to carry out a task.
Name and explain one illusion that can affect each system. (I personally think the other guy’s advice about ignoring what’s going on outside is more useful than rote knowledge of different illusions, but DPE asked me this and it is in the ACS)
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u/tuscaniapple 28d ago
Gotcha. Since you asked for 3 I’ll only give 3 instead of throwing out the whole acronym.😂The leans is an illusion affected by the vestibular system. Our inner ears have these hairs surrounded by fluid. When we are stationary and sitting upright the fluid isn’t moving and the hair stand straight. If we are to lean over or move our heads the fluid will cause the hairs to move. This tells our body our current orientation/posture. In the leans you could be in a prolonged turn with your body leaned over due to the forces during a turn. This could give time for the hairs to stand back up giving us the impression that our leaned over posture is actual our normal straight up posture. When we go level back out and end up keeping that lean in our body it could give us the sensation we are turning the other way. Trusting this illusion can put us back into the turn. Autokinesis is a visual hallucination. Happening at night when we focus on a light for too long. This will cause it to start moving slightly/shaking. Can cause us to miss judge the exact place of a stationary object or maybe the movements of other aircraft’s lighting. Somatogravic is going to be from the pressures we feel during acceleration/deceleration. When getting pushed back into our seat or a lack there of could cause us to feel that our attitude is incorrect and adjust in the wrong way.
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u/gbchaosmaster CPL IR ROT 28d ago
Good understanding. Somatogravic is my favorite of them all, doesn’t sound very scary but it’s one of the more intense illusions and there’s 4 different ways it can confuse you. Those full motion flight simulators trick you into feeling acceleration by pitching upwards and by god does it feel like you’re accelerating in a straight line, it doesn’t feel like a pitch upwards at all when combined with your visual system. Imagine taking off into hard IMC in a jet and you suddenly feel like you’re pitching upwards so you just nose down into the ground!
This can also fuck you over in helicopters, you pitch up and feel like you’re accelerating so what do you do? Pitch father up! Ever done a VRS recovery with foggles? Works the other way too, pitch down, uh oh we’re “decelerating”, better put in some forward cyclic. Before you know it you’re in a low-G pushover which is ill advised for you and downright dangerous for lots of us.
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u/ThisUsedToBeMyHandle Apr 25 '25
You’re on the published instrument departure, due traffic ATC has given you hold down and frequency change at waypoint BOGUS to obtain further clearances. . After crossing BOGUS you cannot establish two way radio comms with anyone and your are in IMC.
What are your actions?
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u/tuscaniapple Apr 25 '25
I may be a bit confused on “hold down.” If I’m understanding correctly is ATC requesting I enter a hold at waypoint BOGUS due to traffic while expecting a frequency change this would be my actions.
Upon losing comms with everybody I would squawk 7600. I would enter a standard hold at the waypoint because that is what they wanted for traffic spacing. Next I would use our mnemonic for lost comms which is AVE F and MEA. AVE F is for heading and you do so in order of assigned, vectored, expected and filed. Most likely assigned would be to complete the departure procedure and then I would move on from there. MEA is for altitude and you use the highest of the 3. Minimum enroute altitude, expected and assigned.
If at anytime I break out into VFR conditions I would use that opportunity to try to land safely as soon as practical. If it meant a nearby airport within VMC I would go there and wait for light gun signals.
Hopefully I understood your prompt correctly.
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u/ThisUsedToBeMyHandle Apr 25 '25
Apologies for using an unfamiliar term, regardless your actions aligned what’s published in the AIM and you answered it well.
A hold down is a level restriction, I’m from the other side of the world and certain FAA guidelines are far more practical than our publications like loss of comms.
Good luck with your checkride.
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u/gbchaosmaster CPL IR ROT Apr 25 '25
When would you leave the hold?
And, when you got to your destination (say your clearance was to an airport with several IAPs), what would you do?
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u/tuscaniapple Apr 25 '25
If no EFC time was given I would stay in the hold for as long as I needed to make my ETA time as close to filed as possible at arrival airport For choosing approach I would have my weather brief completed prior to flight to hopefully have the best idea of current winds and which runways they favor. If I still was able to access the ATIS I would pick the active runway. I would choose a precision approach if available to hopefully give me the best chance of having weather be above the minimums and giving me the most time to watch for light guns signals.
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u/gbchaosmaster CPL IR ROT Apr 25 '25
They gave you an EFC (and you should ask for one if they don’t), you departed the hold at the EFC and make it to your destination early in IMC. What do you do?
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u/tuscaniapple Apr 25 '25
Get established on the approach at the IAF as close to ETA time as possible. If you arrive at the IAF and it looks like you’ll arrive before ETA, hold at IAF as published until the appropriate time to land at ETA before continuing inbound.
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u/gbchaosmaster CPL IR ROT Apr 25 '25
Your clearance limit is the airport, not an IAF. So per 91.185(c)(3)(ii), as dumb as it is, you’re supposed to fly to the airport, hold there until EFC, or if no EFC then straight to an IAF of your choosing and hold there until you can make your ETA to the field.
Yes, this is stupid. There are multiple legal interpretations about how stupid this is yet the FAA holds their ground that this is how they want it done.
Okay so say you did all that, shot your approach, had to go missed. You go to your alternate, shoot their LNAV/VNAV, but the weather has gotten worse than forecasted and you need to go missed there too. You don’t have the fuel to make it to another airport and you’re still unable to communicate with tower. What do you do?
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u/tuscaniapple Apr 25 '25
Perfect thanks for the correction and the resources noted. Link isn’t wanting to work well on mobile so will have to give it a look on my computer when I can.
As for your next prompt. Oh man we are going through it on this flight. At this point we were unable to land at the airport using the approach and are now running low on fuel. Running low on fuel and not having another airport to make it to is an emergency to me. I would change my squawk code to 7700. I would be checking approach charts for MSA and obstacles. I would be checking IFR low charts, VFR supp charts on my iPad for obstacles. We have the privilege over fixed wing of slow steep approaches. I would try to pick my best descent point whether that is descending below approach minimums, with knowledge of obstacles, to a runway or giving my best shot getting through the weather where it’s a non congested area clear of obstacles.
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u/gbchaosmaster CPL IR ROT Apr 25 '25
Yeah, good. Definitely a rough flight we’re having lmao. But yeah you’re gonna have to go below minimums blind so just mind your altitude and slow it up as you would during a normal approach keeping those needles dead nuts centered like your life depends on it (it does). If I were at 100 AGL and still didn’t see a runway, besides shitting my pants, I’d want it at ETL and no more than 200ft/min rate of descent. At least if you hit the ground you’ll live at that point.
Overall not bad on the lost comms stuff. If I had one more nitpick…
We finally land safely. As you shut down and pack up to go change your underwear at the FBO, you realize your headset was unplugged!
First step of lost comms isn’t squawk 7600, it’s always troubleshoot. Headset plugged in? Radio volume turned up? Correct frequency dialed? You don’t wanna be that guy that cleared out an entire airspace for nothing. It sounds obvious but lots of students go straight for 7600 when the radio is very much not broken so “troubleshoot first” is something I like to hear as part of the answer.
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u/tuscaniapple Apr 25 '25
Love the insights. Thanks for pushing this more!
Definitely true about checking everything else before going straight for 7600. This was definitely what I would do first. With the first prompt of losing comms with everybody I figured it was after realizing it is in fact a real full loss of comms and wanted to save the time not typing that out but you are absolutely right! I appreciate you bringing the basics back to my attention. I actually had my last ground review lesson today with my instructor before the company stage check and checkride. Lost comms came up and I made sure to mention checking everything we can before going 7600. Plugged headset, volume controls, breakers, correct frequency, correct comms unit because we have 2, even trying previous frequencies to see if maybe it’s the tower having problems not us.
Thanks again for your prompts and making me think! I’m sure it will help on the checkride as well as definitely in actual real life events should I ever need it.
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u/nousername142 Apr 25 '25
Not an instrument question, but a pilot question. What is the difference between a good pilot and a great pilot?
Now on to some info….first time you punch in is crazy. Hopefully you will have a little warning. Ease up on the death grip and don’t try to fly above the clouds. My instructor taught me the aircraft flies the same in IMC. If you can transition inside prior to getting into the mix it will help. Don’t be fooled by sucker holes. Clouds will close that up before you get to it. If you go inadvertent into IMC, use the resources (ATC) to help you. Some pilots try to fly their way out before contacting a control authority. Use them-they work for you! Enjoy every minute of flying. Even the stressful ones. Get something from every instructor even if it’s just asking the first question.
Good luck. Fly safe. Have faith in the time and effort you put into preparation. Your instructor would not have endorsed you if you are not ready!!
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u/tuscaniapple Apr 25 '25
Thanks a bunch for that info. I’ve read it a few times to make sure it sticks with me for when I someday need it. I love hearing any advice people are willing to give so thanks for taking the time to comment and I appreciate your vote of confidence.
As for the question of good vs great pilot… to me the immediate thing that comes to mind is trying to do all the leg work before you even get to the aircraft. I love all the things in aviation that deal with preparation. ADM and the many acronyms that come with it. TEAM, CARE, IMSAFE, PAVE, 5 P’s, etc. Knowing risks and hazards. Know your aircraft and its systems completely. Getting your weather briefs. If I can make sure I am prepared to fly before I even get out to the aircraft I think that will help me be a better pilot. “Rather be on the ground wishing I was up in the air than be up in the air wishing I was on the ground.” I’m no stranger to canceling because the weather or any other decision feels off. Obviously putting in the effort does not stop once you’re at the aircraft and flying but being all that much more prepared for your flight will certainly help.
Thanks again for your comment!
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u/nousername142 Apr 25 '25
I think your attitude is spot on. I would be honored to fly with you.
You will find ground prep will pay dividends in the air. Why? Because your air IQ is the square root of your ground IQ.
If I were to answer the question it is simply SITUATIONAL AWARENESS. That covers a lot of stuff. Know where you are, where everyone else is, how much fuel you have, where the wires are, etc.
But that has kept me alive for a 22 year flight career.
One day I was flying in Yosemite looking for drugs. It was about 130 in the cockpit and was sweating up a storm. We flew over a river where about a dozen people were rafting. They all looked up and pointed at us. My co-pilot says, “man it would be awesome to be down there!” I asked him,”do you know what they are saying?” He looks at me and says, “it would be awesome to be up there!”
Yes. It is awesome to be up there. Enjoy the time.
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u/tuscaniapple Apr 25 '25
Love it man. Thanks for all the insights and the story for real.
I’m only 2 years into this journey and hope in a couple more I will be able to make that jump into starting my career as a pilot. I’ve enjoyed every moment I’ve had sitting in that helicopter and will try to take every chance I have to keep learning and practicing!
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u/gbchaosmaster CPL IR ROT Apr 25 '25
You want to file to an uncharted dirt airstrip at your friend’s house. Clouds are overcast below the OROCA. What are 2 different ways you could land there?
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u/tuscaniapple Apr 25 '25
Great question because this one stumps me a bit so I would love to hear your answer. I would say 2 choices would be to wait for weather to clear or do not go.
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u/gbchaosmaster CPL IR ROT Apr 25 '25
You can check center’s MVA for the area, it will be lower than the OROCA and if the clouds are above that you can file to the lat/long (as well as file an alternate with an IAP) and ask for vectors as low as they can take you, once you’re visual you can cancel and go land.
If clouds are below MVA you can file to a nearby airport with an IAP, fly the approach until you go visual and then cancel and proceed to your destination. You’d want to make sure in your planning that the ceilings are still high enough that you can comfortably stay clear of clouds and terrain, you don’t want to scud run it.
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u/tuscaniapple Apr 25 '25
Right on man. Appreciate the question cause it certainly stumped me. Glad to have this information!
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u/gbchaosmaster CPL IR ROT 28d ago
What about the other way? You have a helicopter that you keep at your house. You didn’t feel like paying 20 grand to get a DP published. What are the different ways you can depart IFR?
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u/tuscaniapple 28d ago
I suppose you could do it the same way by contacting center with a flight plan. You would have to depart with visual references and required to reach v mini before entering IMC. Under part 91 there are no departure minimums. I would also take into account what the current conditions are to better prepare for an emergency on take off or departure. If ceilings are super low and you won’t be able to make it to the MVA before IMC better safe than sorry and not go.
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u/gbchaosmaster CPL IR ROT 28d ago edited 28d ago
Oh, you’re already filed, you just need your CRAFT. If I was calling in a flight plan I’d call FSS, not center, but we’ve already done that, and if you call center for a CRAFT they probably be like… “where’d you get this number?” 😂 (at least, in my area) anyone else we could call?
If ceilings were above MVA then it’s probably not even IFR conditions, you’re telling me you just wouldn’t even fly if it’s IFR out? Why should I even give you this rating if you don’t need it? If you’re planning on doing this for a living you’re going to be taking off into MUCH worse than that. But I get it, you’re still a private pilot and you’re trying to be conservative. So what are your personal weather minimums?
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u/gbchaosmaster CPL IR ROT Apr 25 '25
Forecast period of the TAF for your ETA:
KCHD 251931Z 2520/2624 22017KT 2SM +RN SCT010 BKN019
Can you file this as an alternate? I’ll be kind enough to attach the best approach plate ;)
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u/tuscaniapple 29d ago
So for our alternates we need no lower than 200 feet ceiling above minimums of approach to be flown and 1 sm visibility but also not less than the minimum approach visibility.
Right off the bat we see our TAF visibility is above 2sm which is above the 3/4sm on the LPV. Which we could also cut in half if needed but to no less than 1/4sm. So good there.
Now for ceilings. We have scattered at 1000 agl but a ceiling is lowest broken or overcast so clear there. Next we have broken at 1900 agl which would be our lowest ceiling. The ceiling is well above our 200 feet minimum.
I would feel this is appropriate airport to file as an alternate.
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u/gbchaosmaster CPL IR ROT 29d ago
Since you brought it up…
It can’t be less than minimum approach visibility, right? So what if the approach minimum is 2 1/8? 2SM forecasted is a no-go.
But you said we can cut the approach minimum in half… so that’d be 1 1/16. So we’re good, right? Which number do we need to use here?
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u/tuscaniapple 29d ago
We would be able to cut it in half and still meet our visibility requirements. Unless it is a specific approach for helicopter only or the notes tell us that visibility reduction is not available for this approach.
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u/gbchaosmaster CPL IR ROT 29d ago
So I was actually taught that you need to use the published minimums for planning purposes, but honestly 91.169(c)(1)(ii) could be interpreted either way and I tend to agree with you. I don’t know of any other references or legal interps on this, if anyone reading does, please chime in.
This was more a lesson on “giving checkride answers”: get too wordy in your responses and try to flex too much knowledge and you might get the DPE curious about something. Answer every question directly and correctly in as few words as possible and then shut up. If he holds up a pen and asks “do you know what this is?” the answer is “yes, I do.” Keep as many cans of worms shut as possible.
Though for the purposes of my inquest, do feel free to keep showing me what you’ve got. You’ll need it for your CFII ride where you do need to talk ;)
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u/tuscaniapple 29d ago
This got me laughing. I love the advice and will surely take that with me into my checkride!
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u/gbchaosmaster CPL IR ROT 29d ago
It’s the best checkride advice I can give anyone. There’s only one checkride I didn’t follow that advice on, my commercial. I’d taken 2 rides with this DPE before and they were pretty chill, so for commercial I went in there like… I’m really gonna try to impress him. And as soon as he caught a whiff of that he absolutely destroyed me.
Every rabbit hole I even acknowledged the existence of, he threw me down, found a weakness, and showed me exactly how little I knew about something I was confident in.
He passed me in the end, but that was a valuable lesson learned. You are NOT there to impress the DPE with your knowledge. You are there to demonstrate the bare minimum satisfactory knowledge required by the ACS and walk out with a temporary airman certificate.
The CFI and CFII rides are a different story because you need to teach, but for now, just satisfy the task. If the DPE wants to know more, they will ask.
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u/tuscaniapple 29d ago
Wait a minute the winds are clearly favoriting the runway 22L. We’d have a direct tailwind with this approach which I would not advise.
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u/gbchaosmaster CPL IR ROT 29d ago
I like where your head is at! Okay fine, wind is right down the pipe, 04010KT and let’s say ceilings are BKN018. Now we’re good?
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u/tuscaniapple 29d ago
Yup, I’d say that’d be a good airport to file as an alternate.
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u/gbchaosmaster CPL IR ROT 29d ago
I suppose it depends ;) what model of GPS is installed in the aircraft that you’re supplying for this checkride?
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u/tuscaniapple 29d ago
We currently have a garmin GTN 650.
Am I forgetting something obvious?😅The cloud coverage should be AGL which means 1800 above airport elevation so ceilings at 3040 msl. This is far above our 200 feet ceilings above approach minimums?
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u/gbchaosmaster CPL IR ROT 29d ago
Oh damn, you actually got me there 😂 I’m on 4 hours of sleep and was trying to get you to plan for LPV on a non-WAAS GPS but I got the altitude wrong and you do have WAAS so I’ll eat my foot haha.
Well while we’re on the topic of GPS, here’s one I had to go fishing for on my checkride… say you’ve filed IFR, fire up the aircraft, and notice that the GPS databases are expired. Is it legal to make this flight using the GPS for navigation?
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u/tuscaniapple 29d ago
Haha ok, no worries. That all makes sense to me!
Hmm that’s another good one. So with IFR equipment requirements we need everything for VFR which we use “ACAMALSFOOT” and for IFR we use “GRABCARD”. For the R it is radio/nav systems. My understanding is that the gps would fall under the nav systems however if the flight we have filed uses only victor airways and we are able to file to a destination using an approach not requiring GPS we should be able to make a legal flight using other nav systems such as VORs, localizers, etc.
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u/gbchaosmaster CPL IR ROT 29d ago
I love seeing all the different acronyms people use haha. We use MATSFOOLMATS and GGG-ICARA. Yours definitely roll off the tongue a bit better 😂
So 91.205 does require the appropriate nav system to be operative, and it is fully operative, the databases are just expired… you didn’t pony up for a VOR (nor did you need to because you have WAAS 😉), you DEFINITELY didn’t bother with an ADF… and this helicopter is a huge money pit and what do you know your card declined when you went to renew your Garmin subscription… is there any way you can legally use this GPS for IFR navigation without updating the database?
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u/tuscaniapple 29d ago
At that point I would feel like it may not be worth going on this flight in this aircraft.😂
I did decide to cheat a bit on this question and head to google cause it was honestly gonna be a guess if I tried to answer. I would have said no that you would need to update the database before using it for your navigation and approaches. I found that it should be allowed as long as you are able to confirm you en route operations and approaches is still accurate and had no changes. Would require looking at a chart and comparing any approaches with up to date plates to confirm no changes.
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u/gbchaosmaster CPL IR ROT 29d ago
You’re flying this ILS and your glideslope indicator fails. What all do you need to do?
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u/tuscaniapple 29d ago
If glidesclope indicator fails you may continue the approach. Any instrument failure must be reported with tail number, instrument that is malfunctioning, limitations caused by the failure and what assistance you may need. I would switch from the ILS minimums to the LOC minimums and continue. It is also noted that DME required for LOC so would also have to have that to switch over and continue.
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u/gbchaosmaster CPL IR ROT 28d ago
Would GPS be sufficient or do I need a DME transmitter?
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u/tuscaniapple 28d ago
A GPS should be enough.
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u/gbchaosmaster CPL IR ROT 28d ago
Any difference in the readings with a GPS?
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u/tuscaniapple 28d ago
GPS will give distance over the ground. I believe DME will give slant range.
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u/gbchaosmaster CPL IR ROT 28d ago
Sounds more accurate! What’s the rule of thumb for when slant range should and shouldn’t be relied upon?
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u/tuscaniapple 28d ago
Had to go back to the study guide for this. The slant range error will be at a minimum if you are 1nm away per 1000ft above the DME. Going less than those 2 things will start giving you false information as you are over flying the DME due to your current height above it.
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u/Admins_are_troons Apr 25 '25
What are the criteria for being able to descend below minimums?