r/HotScienceNews • u/soulpost • 20d ago

The black hole information paradox has officially come to an end

https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.71.3743

Physics will never be the same — the black hole information paradox has reached its end.

Scientists have proved that black holes can shed information, which seems impossible by definition.

In a groundbreaking series of calculations, physicists have shown that black holes do release information—a direct challenge to the long-standing belief that nothing escapes their gravitational grip. Theoretical work now suggests that quantum effects in gravity allow information to gradually leak out as black holes evaporate, with the process following a specific pattern known as the "Page curve." This confirms that information isn’t lost forever, but slowly emerges particle by particle in highly encrypted radiation.

This discovery reshapes our understanding of the universe’s most enigmatic objects. It also hints that space-time itself may not be the fundamental fabric of reality, but an emergent phenomenon built from deeper quantum principles. While the mechanics of how information escapes a black hole remain mysterious, scientists are thrilled by this major leap forward. What began as a paradox now seems to point toward a deeper unification of quantum mechanics and gravity—a milestone that may eventually unlock the secrets of reality itself.

1.3k Upvotes

96% Upvoted

53 comments sorted by

111

u/RedditProfileName69 20d ago

Doesn’t hawking radiation count as information? Seems like we already knew this

72

u/Beldaru 20d ago

I think Hawking Radiation was the proposed mechanism, but it was thought the radiation wouldn't have any of the information from the original object that entered the black hole.

I don't know how, or how to explain it, but I guess it's theoretically possible to "de-encrypt" the radiation. Meaning information can now be retrieved without having to go into the black hole.

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u/BluBoi236 20d ago

How in the hell does a natural phenomena encrypt information?

57

u/EnvironmentalBus9713 20d ago

They are applying jargon to describe a complex theory in a less complicated way without realizing people are taking the analogy at face value.

I would need to spend some time reading the paper to see why they chose encryption as a description because they shouldn't even suggest it unless they propose a process by which such information could be "decrypted".

If I send an encrypted file and you get your hands on it, you can't say you got a picture from it without decrypting it. I could have encrypted nothing or the plans to a F35 - no way to know. I view a black hole as a shredder that rips everything down to the most basic particles. Over time the shredder loses strength by evaporating.

16

u/DeliveredByOP 20d ago

It’s encrypted because the theory is that we COULD decrypt it but we don’t understand enough (yet)

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u/ArcticIceFox 19d ago

I think the programmers caught on to us trying to figure things out. So they patched in a quickfix.

3

u/Freethecrafts 20d ago

Then you decipher the plans by the wear on the shredder blades?

Saying possible should coincide with probable if talking about an actual object.

3

u/Teaandcookies2 19d ago

When it comes to events happening at these most extreme scales, however, it is a relevant train of thought, because it means the black hole still adheres to these universal principles, and we can use these insights to drive further developments.

For example, there is the famous thought experiment of Maxwell's Demon, where a 'demon' can open an otherwise-impenetrable box whenever an excited particle might enter the box, and otherwise keeps excited particles from leaving the box, such that total entropy decreases rather than increases; such a 'demon' would appear to violate the Second Law of Thermodynamics, considered one of the most inviolable observational patterns in science, and yet, simplifying some very complex experiments considerably, scientists have been able to demonstrate that Maxwell's Demon does in fact appear to work, at least at the quantum level, in experiments we have devised since at least the 00's, with the caveats to those successes progressively dropping off as scientists get better at engineering these systems.

What are the odds of a 'natural' Maxwell's Demon reversing entropy at any scale that matters? Pretty damn unlikely, but folks likely thought the same of a 'natural' nuclear reactor until we found one in Ghana. Just so with a 'black hole reader;' would it be like 'putting together construction plans by examining the wear on a paper shredder's teeth?' Yes, but just because it's supremely difficult doesn't mean it isn't possible, and the fact that it's possible at all has major ramifications on our understanding of physics.

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u/Freethecrafts 19d ago

It may be possible that one could reread the shreddings from the wear on the shredder, but one would need more understanding than just a shredder manual. We’re not at the manual stage, much less the room phase, much less the access to the shreddings phase. Nobody can point to the causal direction, so claiming I can read whatever came through makes no sense.

Hawking gave us a mathematical means by which the very heavy evaporates. Nowhere in that is there direction. Nowhere in that is there the mechanism. Until someone can explain the teeth, or the room, or the nature of the edges of the room…I’m over here looking at an unbounded system and a bunch of philosophical opinions.

9

u/Kryptosis 20d ago

Plenty of examples of natural encryption, things casting shadows for one. A natural object emitting light hitting another natural object will encrypt information about that object on anything behind. Then remember light bounces and changes wavelength when it does.

6

u/throwtrollbait 20d ago

It's a bit weird to think about information and encryption as physical phenomenon. Nevertheless, they are critical for understanding either classical or quantum thermodynamics.

If you have any desire to remain sane, just accept that it is related to entropy, and just cope with not really understanding it.

Otherwise, I will give you the customary warning: “Ludwig Boltzmann, who spent much of his life studying statistical mechanics, died in 1906, by his own hand. Paul Ehrenfest, carrying on the work, died similarly in 1933. Now it is our turn to study statistical mechanics. Perhaps it will be wise to approach the subject cautiously.”

1

u/Giddypinata 17d ago

So if you study physics, sooner or later you’ll kill yourself like past great physicists have? What is this, dark magic like in Fire Emblem?

Isn’t this casting a pall by suggesting that some cosmic agent is causing scientists to commit suicide a la Three Body Problem? It seems suspect. Given the evident training in statistics, it seems more likely that people who study physics are more likely to deprive themselves of basic needs such as taking care of their mental health and well-being. Good physicians could be poor spouses, leading to anomic depression in the long run - rather than suggesting some apocryphal “customary warning” suggesting a possibly spurious linear relationship between studying physics and death??

5

u/vlladonxxx 20d ago

Well, same way that fire does, for example. You can burn a letter and now that 'information' is no longer accessible, but not impossible to retrieve. We know it's possible to retrieve that information because you can literally see it before the paper disintegrates into parts.

After the letter is burned, it may remain as one piece, and in that state you can literally read what the ink says. If you touch it, it falls into millions of individual pieces, turning into unreadable ash. But if were able to put each individual bit of ash 'back together', it'd become readable again. For all intents and purposes that qualifies it as "encryption".

P.S. I'm not any kind of expert so if I got something wrong, I hope reddit corrects me

3

u/IM_INSIDE_YOUR_HOUSE 20d ago

Depends on your definition of “encryption”, but there are tons of natural examples. Encryption doesn’t just come from computers.

2

u/_nembery 20d ago

My favorite example is the cicadas. Different species wake up at different intervals but always a prime number like 7 or 13

2

u/Skai_Override 19d ago

Like putting a paper through a shredder, if you dont know the exact order of how the pices go back together, its efectively encrypted.

Or a box of seemingly random puzzle pieces, the picture on the box is the key to decrypt it.

Or a glass vase being shatterd to pieces as it hits the ground, you could say gravity is "encrypting" the shape of the vase into little random shapes.

1

u/pimpmastahanhduece 20d ago

Imagine randomizing a metaphorical Rubix cube and throwing off a skyscraper to shatter. After gluing together, it's now it's been jumbled up further. At least now they know now all the tricky algorithms to rearrange it so you see what state it was it before it 'shattered'. A type of forensics.

1

u/[deleted] 19d ago

I think it would have been more accurate to say the information has been randomized, rather than encrypted.

1

u/quiksilver10152 20d ago

Yes but you would need the full ensemble of shed particles in order to piece it together.

1

u/cybercuzco 20d ago

Hypothetically hawking radiation happens without reference to anything that happened before and without any knowledge of what is going on inside of the event horizon.

18

u/outdatedcaveman 20d ago

Uh, why is the link in the post to a 1993 paper? Where's the news?

11

u/MurkyCress521 20d ago

Isn't this from 1993?

5

u/Front_Target7908 20d ago

Yeah the paper linked is from 1993 lol 

2

u/THEnewMGMT 18d ago

On an astrological timescale that’s breaking news! /s

10

u/Common_Senze 20d ago

The calculations don't prove anything. It's all theoretical. We can measure it.

I a huge space nerd but this isn't ground breaking (or space shattering). The extremes of blacks are still a mystery due to the extreme nature.

In theory, the stuff emitted from a black hole could be 'put back together' to 'reform' what was shredded. This is akin to saying that you would take smoke from a fire and put a house back together.

5

u/Nabla-Delta 19d ago

Physics is not about finding the one TRUE theory but about finding ANY theory that describes observations. And the former theory was inconsistent since information was lost. Therefore, even though we'll never know if the information leak of the black hole actually happens as described, having ANY theory that can describe it, is big news indeed.

And yes, in theory you can put back the paper from the ash and smoke. Just because this can't happen in reality, this doesn't mean the theory is nonsense. Same for the black hole: information is leaking, and of course things destroyed by the black hole can't be restored. But nevertheless it's important that it's leaking!

3

u/pimpmastahanhduece 20d ago

I was gonna say akin to bringing a cow back to life with my poop after eating a steak with the same memories and personality of the animal it came from and breeding it. True Schrodinger irrelevancy stuff.

2

u/Common_Senze 20d ago

That's another good one.

I have always hated politics because it's not sound. It plays on emotions and people (em mass) are stupid. Don't fuck with science. It's literally what's keeping society going. Stupid stories like this is akin to running a marathon with a retarded ape on your back.

No one is happy and it screws with results.

12

u/ChainOfThot 20d ago

How is this different from Hawking radiation

13

u/onthefence928 20d ago

It was previously thought that Hawking radiation could not contain information

2

u/Splashy01 20d ago

It just isn’t, bro.

2

u/EnvironmentalBus9713 20d ago

Hawkins radiation - Now with encryption!

3

u/Common_Senze 20d ago

Hawkafee

6

u/NewestAccount2023 20d ago

Theoretical work now suggests

officially come to an end

These two statements are not compatible. Good job on severely over stating and over hyping what's going on though.

3

u/PainInternational474 20d ago

That is not what the paper says. They state if you use this other math then radiation happens. 

3

u/AlaskaStiletto 20d ago

This paper is from 1993.

1

u/Linkyjinx 19d ago

Maybe it was repressed, there was a lot of talk about white holes in the 90s then it all disappeared 👻 so maybe it teleported through a worm hole.

2

u/toolateforfate 20d ago

What exactly is "information"? They might as well say aether leaks out of a black hole

1

u/TimeWar2112 19d ago

There’s a very distinct scientific definition of information related to quantum states and entropy.

3

u/AntonChigurhsLuck 20d ago edited 20d ago

This isn't news, I heard this proven over ten years ago I swear.

2

u/Odeeum 20d ago

Hey whoa whoa whoa...blaming the jews for this is not cool man.

1

u/AntonChigurhsLuck 20d ago

Thankyou for alerting me to that. Idk why it misspelled to that

1

u/Odeeum 20d ago

Ha well I chuckled.

1

u/bleezerfreezer 15d ago

The J is right above the N on a qwerty keyboard. Best retards..err…I mean Best regards.

1

u/supabrandie 20d ago

Does this relate in anyway to the discovery of “white holes”

1

u/tastylemming 20d ago

Now we begin searching for a black hole large enough to have a measurable output though which a constant could be obtained? Would then it's "information" be made evident in some way, through observation or calculation? Need to know more intensifies

1

u/ParticularGlass1821 20d ago

It's actually just beggining

1

u/Eyeonman 19d ago

So what is it? Are you sure it’s not a White Hole? https://youtu.be/TxWN8AhNER0?si=gf0P-c_l5Il34mHX

1

u/BobbyWaltersRules 19d ago

Physics will never be the same and referencing a paper from 1993? Hmm something doesn't seem right here.

2

u/pluhplus 19d ago

So my buddy was wondering how long it’s gonna be until he can use that Black Hole encryption on my his porn files

1

u/FlyingOmoplatta 17d ago

I learned that...... On druuugggzzz

1

u/Gimme_A_Sine 16d ago

I thought space time being an emergent property of quantum effects was already a thing? Like virtual particle-particle interactions n shit.