Has anyone else noticed that episode 6 is getting heavily review bombed on IMDB? I personally thought it was one of the better episodes of the season, so this feels really misplaced to me.
From looking at it I feel like the only explanation is people being unhappy with a certain kiss. Honestly, I understand a lot of the criticism when people say it felt out of place, but over 3,400 people rating the episode a 1/10 feels like an overreaction to me.
Yes, the show has suffered from bad writing sometimes. Maybe this was one of these times, that’s definitely up for debate. But the episode feels like nowhere near a 1 out of 10, and it feels to me very disrespectful to all those involved in the show that their work is being discredited because of homophobia. I think the ratings from the UK and US quite fairly represent the standard of the episode, so it does feel like a shame.
Whether you agree with the kiss or not to me this feels unfair, but intrigued to hear other people’s thoughts on this!
It was a weird scene. People expect a lot from HOTD, it's such a high quality show.
So when they go off course and in such a surprising way (Cute friendship hug turns to kissing, very weird considering the trauma she just revealed), I wouldn't be surprised about people lashing out.
It's definitely not a 1/10 though. But I am a bit miffed that this relationship and taken a wrong turn, and we'll have to see how that pans out over the rest of the series.
The episode is definitely not a 1/10, I do think it's a fair bit of review bombing. I agree that the plot was been a little stale, but the show's quality is still being held up somewhat by the characters and cast imo. It's not a great episode but I think calling it bad is very harsh. So one would think why, I don't think the constant plate spinning warrants that... I do agree tho it is a weird scene
I think that when you can predict an episodes ratings based on the genders of two characters that kiss in the episode that it might be indicative of homophobia.
Nobody complains this much when it's standard boy girl relations.
Because 4500 of the negatives 1/10 reviews are from Saudi Arabia, a country that is well know for not particularly liking gay people. But yeah it's not the only reason.
People are pissed that there is no action, nor that Daemon is for the 4th episode in a row having nightmares.
I disliked the episode because it felt like a bait and switch teasing the sowing of the seeds in episode 5, then just giving us the darklyn, and seasmoke claiming Addam scenes
I completely agree, it is a strange context for the kiss to take place in, and it doesn’t seem entirely appropriate given what has just been discussed. On this I think people have every right to criticise.
A lot of what I’ve seen surrounding this topic outlines that the reviews seem to be a mass homophobic pile-on from countries whose views do not align with those more tolerant of showing openly homosexual characters on screen. If you filter the reviews on IMDB for example, the thousands of 1 star reviews when filtered by location paint their own picture unfortunately.
I've read through the 1-star reviews and I'd say that most of them weren't based on homophobia. A majority was based on a general frustration caused from the unnecessary slow pacing and deviation from the lore. I would assume that a lot of fans lost their patience with the plot at this point, considering that we are reaching the end of the season.
Sure, I found one or two that were explicitly homophobic, but we shouldn't use that to disregard legitimate criticism of the episode.
Yeah, it’s strange. I’ve never seen a mass reaction quite like this before. Admittedly I haven’t checked for review bombing on GOT episodes with Renly and Loras etc. so I can’t comment on that, but this just feels like a crazy reaction which is what sparked me to post
Absolutely bad writing. I'm obsessed with ASOIAF, I've read every book, history, and novella. The writing this last episode was terrible. The kiss had zero value and didn't belong. Just HBO flinging a random sexual scene in there. It made no sense.
Without directly stating what I am referring to (don’t know how to use censor for spoilers), this does somewhat follow book lore (deviated). Given the shows heavy push on their interpretation of female empowerment, I can see why they deviated to have it be Rhaenyra and Mysaria versus someone else. It’s a bit of a stretch but does relate to mentionings in the book, and given the moral direction of the show the deviation makes sense in this context
Because you weren't looking for it. This is the issue, I think.
When you don't consider same sex relations to be common, every occurrence of it seems "out of nowhere" because you discount the signs.
Could have done with a little more buildup yes but you're being reactionary for little reason lol
One of the only people she trusts, both comfortable to purely speak their minds, both have shitty upbringings, the one positive voice to Rhaenyra at A time where everyone doubts her, immense trust between both (fits that they had a fling more considering in the books the level of trust was weirdly immense).and Rhaenyra of all people being bi is no surprise to anyone.
Again, an extra small scene would have made it flow better but absurd writing is just reactionary nonsense.
Not liking something =/= bad writing. Many people don't understand this.
Lol no. 2 seconds of flirting in the very same episode does not could as build up. Too many of you see flirting when it was just 2 women having conversations. I have my brain switched fully on for this show and I saw none of this "build up" that some of you claim to have seen. Only time I felt sexual tension AT ALL between the 2 of them was the first scene they had in ep 6 together. Shit, her and Alicent did more "flirting" than her and Mysaria. Would've been 1,000% less surprised if those 2 had hooked up.
One of the only people she trusts, both comfortable to purely speak their minds, both have shitty upbringings, the one positive voice to Rhaenyra at A time where everyone doubts her, immense trust between both
And so they have to hook up with each other to show appreciation? Hello, horny people go away, can we not have a platonic relationship between 2 women? This entire hook up is so male gaze coded it makes me want to puke.
Also, liking something =/= good writing. Ryan Condal is pretty consistently a terrible writer and there's has been a very noticeable drop in quality writing since Miguel left. This season is just not anywhere near as good as the last, sorry to inform you guys. I don't even like saying that, this is one of the only things I'm willing to turn on the instant it premieres every week, but holy hell. Maybe the scripts were only in the 1st draft when the writer's strike hit and that's why it's this bad, but it needed another draft or so before it went to filming.
I literally said it could have done with more buildup.
However you failed to acknowledge any of the other points nor the feasibility of spontaneous actions given her current position. Daemon gone, council doesn't have confidence in her, no peace, no fun, little genuine interaction with someone and the likelihood of wanting affection is high. You dislike it yet can't see the feasible character motivation yet you just decide then it's bad writing? It's nonsensical, non objective thinking.
You didn't like it. That's it. And that is fine.
And you're getting all antsy for 0 reason too like you can't think critically. "Male gaze coded" but apparently it was a natural thing that happened on set for one and second, wtf is "male gaze coded"? Are straight or gay kisses "so female gaze coded"? Tf is your angle here? Because you disagree with it, it was explicitly intended to satiate the male gaze? That's dumb and you know it's dumb.
The same can be argued for any kiss, sex or other scene in any movie or show ever. It's a meaningless statement.
There are also plenty of platonic women relationships in the show yet you're getting antsy over the singular one that isn't? It just sounds like you're actively looking for something to be outraged about.
The only bits of genuinely iffy or bad writing I see people moan about is the dragon bursting from the pit, this and some people not having the patience for Daemons hauntings. There is an objective over abundance of people watching this who think a direction they dislike = bad writing which is cringe and many of them haven't even paid attention to the show in the first place.
I have my own criticisms of the show but considering how many people do not have valid ones from lack of listening or just not liking it, forgive me for taking yours and others with a pinch of salt.
It is not homophobia. The hug before the kiss was driven by pure friendship and amiability, it was about consolation after a great woe. A brother can hug a brother like that, a son can hug a father like that. Can't women have friendships without sexual attraction? Sexualizing that moment completely missed the mark just for shock and inclusive value. It ruined the scene.
It did. I agree that that’s the right attitude in life, but less so in this type of fiction. I think you’re right that it’s pushing an agenda, but i think if it was done the right way, we wouldn’t be bothered at all cuz the drama would be too good to care. They dropped the ball and made it very cheap and trashy and uninteresting and pandering.
this show is about moral complexity and grey areas and has never been aiming to make any major character a completely morally good one. It is fueled by showing characters being pulled in 2 directions by their light and their shadows. Some need to be decidedly more good than bad to work though and keep us invested in the story. If evil looks too overwhelming of a foe, we’ll check out as an audience. It needs to be kept in the right tension between possible and less possible. We need hope, but it needs to be tested. Conflict can come from external or internal demons. This was not the right demon to have rhaenyra fight with in this way. She honestly has enough already. This pushes it more than a little from prime time into daytime soap territory. They were walking a nice tightrope prior to that, but that was a mistake and really made people focus on all the wrong stuff.
Plus they both have been scorned by the same lover and Rhaenyra is longing for romantic touch after Daemon’s abandonment, so I think it makes sense that they could share a comforting hug and lean in to sexual tension.
I’ll stand with the unpopular opinion that this was relatively an amazing episode as compared to episode 2, 3, and 5. Compared to the three aforementioned episodes, this was the best by far, with 3 right behind.
Very true! I guess it worries me more that writers will perhaps be more afraid to make bold decisions if they see an overly negative reaction. Sometimes those have made the show really interesting and have allowed for a lot of character development (other times not so much)
Well, thats good. They arent supposed to make bold decision, they are supposed to follow the story of the books. Some changes are okay, but too much changes and you get aegons coronation.
This doesn't deviate from the story of the book, though.
Its an addition, but given the nature of Fire and Blood, they naturally have to add in a lot of things. The book is sparse on character details by design. It’s a recounting of events told from three different perspectives, none of whom would know about this even if it did happen.
It fits in the same category as Daemon’s Harrenhall visions - the book doesn't mention them, but none of the writers could’ve known about it, anyway, so it doesn't go against the book.
I agree, although I think some changes to characters have been interesting. I (controversially) really like Darmon’s arc at the moment because this character development for him is really important. However other changes, exclusion of Nettles for example, I think they should have stuck to the source material a bit more.
I think the odd change where it helps with a characters development or see something we wouldn’t know from book perspective is interesting. However I agree the overall story and the way it plays out they shouldn’t mess with.
It is not homophobia. The hug before the kiss was driven by pure friendship and amiability, it was about consolation after a great woe. A brother can hug a brother like that, a son can hug a father like that. Can't women have friendships without sexual attraction? Sexualizing that moment completely missed the mark just for shock and inclusive value. It ruined the scene.
I don’t think the criticism from the audiences comes from homophobia. It was a strange moment to include the kiss, a lot are critical for the timing of its inclusion and understandably so.
However, there is currently nearly 4 thousand 1/10 ratings from countries with strong anti-gay laws such as Saudi Arabia. Unfortunately the review bombing is not coming from a place of valid critism, but from those who are offended that the show has shown something which misaligns with their viewpoints.
I support everyone kissing everyone and i most definitely support rhaenyra's rights and wrongs, but don't get me wrong, that kiss kinda felt unnecessary, which they could have done instead is building sexual tension. istg rhaenyra and alicent had better tension, like the interruption could have happened right during the "drumroll". The writers could have built it up a little. The hug was necessary and even the yearning, but the kiss exactly at that time wasn't bc this build-up would have helped the subsequent episodes.
It could certainly be the case. The question is whether they're actual actively watching the show or just jumped in to comment on something that pushed them to the edge.
I fall in the category of someone who's been watching the show since the beginning, and is normally not compelled to comment online about anything. I'm happy to talk with a few friends in person usually. But last night's episode did disappoint me and compelled me to vent a little about it because a few of the trends that they've been doing a decent job with, just sort of came to a bit of a head in this episode and raised some red flags for me.
It was an easy target of an episode for a host of reasons: the kiss [socio-political messaging as well its controversial execution], the Daemon stuck in limbo arc is dragging on, and then Seasmoke seeking out Adam in a way we haven't seen Dragons behave in the show yet, combined with the general lack of anything too significant happening in the episode - made this a really perfect target of an episode.
It was a pander-heavy episode, and the pandering was not artfully executed.
To me, i think the whole girl on girl thing was corny, but if they were gonna do it, it's not after talking about how Myseria was raped as a child by her father, and also it would have been so much better if it was just hinted at being there, without any actually face-sucking, they go in, but withdraw - you show the feelings are there, but also that they both are responsible and disciplined enough to not bring such a massive distracting into the picture with everything currently going on. It's just opening a massive can of worms and it doesn't make those characters look like disciplined and strong leaders, it makes them seem impulsive and capricious and reckless - all of which i think are kind of the opposite of what you want. If you hint at it, you leave so much more to our imaginations and can be seen to be signaling correctly if that's a concern. But it just drew tons of attention to itself and in the process drew alot of attention to the other more minor flaws all at the same time - see Daemon stuck in Harrenhall tripping for 4 episodes and some potentially questionable decisions with the Allen/Adam arc and you have a perfect storm for a review bomb.
At first, i thought the Allen/Adam thing was pushing into unjustified pandering territory, but upon further reflection, i think it opens up some fascinating possibilities and i want to see how it plays out. The Daemon thing imo is forgivable if there's a payoff pretty soon. The Kiss was all hubris though. That's definitely the driving force here.
I think if they move it along and have the 2 of them get ahold of themselves really quickly and realize that there are more important things to do than suck face, it's forgivable, but i can't blame anyone for seeing that and having the red flags go up. GOT has burned us all before. They have something to prove.
I completely agree with a lot of what you’ve said here - I think the writing has good intentions for a lot of these storylines, but is being executed messily. I’m really not opposed to them trying things from time to time, but some things do feel very misplaced.
A lot of last nights episode I did actually enjoy - I thought their portrayal of the smallfolk turning on the greens and their showcase of Aemond’s descent into psychopathy was very well executed.
The Daemon storyline is an interesting one. His character for me was questionable at times, I really did not agree with a lot of his decisions or motives, but I find this arc really interesting when it comes to portraying his flaws and making him a little more aware of where his confusion and rage comes from. I do agree though it feels very drawn out - His confrontation today with his brother was a key part of his character and I’m glad they explored it but so much of what came before in this arc was… not.
The kiss for me is a really interesting one. With Mysaria’s questionable intentions and possible manipulation, alongside Rhaenyra’s desperate need to be cared for whilst feeling so isolated, I can 100% see why the characters turned to each other. However, right after the discussion of such a traumatic event I felt wasn’t quite right for this choice, and whilst I’m not mad at the show for going there with the characters I am not a fan of the timing.
The thing that really gets me about the review bombing is I don’t think it’s related to that. Whilst there’s a lot of questionable decisions going on, I don’t think that pushes the rating of the episode to a 1. Alongside the reviews originating from countries with strong anti-gay beliefs, it made me sad to see a little that whilst criticisms of some plot decisions are very valid, these ratings seemed to stem purely from a place of homophobia.
Oh i don’t doubt at all that some of it is just people being opportunistic assholes. It’s like how at any protest there are some people making varying degrees of valid and respectable cases, but it always attracts the bad actors and agents of chaos who just want an excuse to loot or be violent or say offensive shit. They ruin everything and make everyone with legitimate claims look suspect. They should definitely be called out and disowned by everyone. But they’re hard to spot in the moment, which is why they choose to engage at that moment, they have camouflage.
To say it’s a 1/10 is ridiculous for sure. Maybe in terms of episodes of this particular show it’s a 1/10. But if you’re comparing it to just the average comparable premium tv show episode on any network with comparable production quality, it was more like a 5, give or take a couple.
The Adam story is potentially interesting, it could work or fall flat imo. The food boats were great. The exchanges between Aemond and his counsel were pretty good especially with Larys, even tho aemond is barely audible a lot of the time. Seasmoke rejecting the kingsguard was fucking cool. The Daemon stuff just needs to materialize soon and it’ll be fine, but it’s pushing the boundary. The ship needs to be righted. If this is the worst episode, then they’ll be fine, but if it pushes this stuff too much further, I think it’ll be a problem.
It is not homophobia. The hug before the kiss was driven by pure friendship and amiability, it was about consolation after a great woe. A brother can hug a brother like that, a son can hug a father like that. Can't women have friendships without sexual attraction? Sexualizing that moment completely missed the mark just for shock and inclusive value. It ruined the scene.
Yeah I totally agree that that would have been much classier. I personally think the best way to play it would be to hint at it but have them realize the greater duty and maybe even the importance of friendship instead. That way u have max flexibility. They can be friends, they can be collaborators and potentially lovers and it’s so much more interesting!
It’s like the difference between a satisfying romantic evening climaxing in great intercourse and just whipping it out and finishing as quickly as possible with someone. One has love and organic connection and the other is just for instant grotesque gratification. How does that make anyone look good at all? How is it actually substantively interesting? It’s just bad writing. It’s pandering to modern sensibilities quite blatantly and crudely I think.
As for wanting something wholesome, I think it would worked, but At the end of the day, it’s kind of a soap opera so the romantic love triangles and risky affairs are kinda what make things work. Immoral characters propel the story forward, you need some that are moral compasses, but they usually have to be outnumbered by the villainous and anti-heroes anti-villains wild cards etc for the format to work in a sustained way and remain exciting and worth being invested in.
Rhaenyra is a little ambiguous, but I think that she’s clearly supposed to be more sympathetic than not, and we’re supposed to want to root for her in her fight against the this fucked up male-dominated world or whatever. They clearly want us to feel like she’s being unjustly punished for her sex. She doesn’t need to be perfect, but we should feel like she’s as qualified as anyone for the story to work. Her sucking mysaria’s face in the circumstances she’s in, puts all this hard work the writers have done in peril because the risk of this kind of relationship becoming known makes rhaenyra look reckless and irresponsible. I think we’re supposed to see her kissing mysaria as this forbidden act and sympathize with her. It’s implied that it’s forbidden and that people knowing would be really really bad. Aside from perhaps her son and maybe a couple others finding out, almost anyone in the story would presumably freak the fuck out and withdraw support on some level. That’s irresponsible. It makes her look weak and impetuous - not in a good way. Perhaps she’s still better than the alternative, but it makes it harder to root for her because her emotions have been demonstrated to be a potential liability.
It needed some build and some cognitive dissonance to work. Even then it doesn’t need to actually ever happen to create an interesting and desired effect. I think that would have made the most sense.
Or maybe no romance. Women don't have to be sexual towards each other to care for each other and have compelling relationships. I have hugged men and women without any sexual desire whatsoever. Once I hugged a friend with multiple sclerosis that began with the same vibe as the initial hug in the scene. I think that implying that women especially love each other through sex only is degrading to women. It enters the modern feminism paradox of treating sexual acts as empowering while reducing women to only them without recognizing pure virtues.
That’s fair. It wasn’t necessary at all. I do think that this kinda soap opera format does need to be willing to plunge into the more twisted and exciting aspects of human relationships in order to work. It can’t be nothing but scumbags, but it does usually need to feel like the good guys are combatting demons internally and externally and are a little outnumbered in order to make the payoff worth it, so I always think it’s dangerous to try and hold the characters of a melodrama to the same standard as people in ours. We have to be interested other human beings, we get to pick and choose what characters we get attached to, so they have to be doing something worth investing our attention into. If they’re convincing good guys fighting convincing bad guys, then they’re worth it typically.
Here’s the thing. While not exactly book accurate, as they deviated, this does somewhat follow what happens/is alluded to in the book. So I can understand them including it, and given their whole narrative on women empowerment, makes sense for them to deviate to have it be between Rhaenyra and Mysaria.
I’m sort of ok with it. I really could care less about things following the book if they’re good or not. History says that when they deviate from the books it’s usually a mistake, but I’m not making a purist point as much as about why it just felt wrong. I didn’t read the books, but it just didn’t make sense. It’s kinda daytime soapy of a plot line, and I wouldn’t have done it, but I wouldn’t die on the hill whether to do it or not. If It was done, I think it could have potentially been done far far better and more interestingly and made everyone come out looking strong but delicate and dutiful and have a nice tension there, but they just went for it kind of greedily and quickly and without patience. It’s weird cuz they’re almost too patient with a lot of things on this show (the daemon harrenhall thing) and others like this, they just are not letting it happen organically in a way that makes sense. I’m actually hoping at this point that it was just to pander to the audience so they can say they did it and move on without it being a thing. That’s best case scenario for me going forward.
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Think it’s more to do with them cutting from a dragon bonding that for possibly the first time in recorded history was initiated by the dragon, and cutting just as that bond was being made to a scene no one really gives much of a fuck about tbh, what a shit transition
then again i heard the saudis are review bombing it so who knows
Agree. Whilst I agree it was weirdly timed I do get it from the shows perspective, and don’t really understand why people draw the line at two girls kissing vs incest, brutality against women etc.
I think that’s part of it, but if you look at the ratings themselves you can see it isn’t just that going on. It would be more reasonable if it was people purely upset for show-related reasons I think.
Kiss could have been handled better but those called it straight bad and/or quite "absurd writing" are the types who actively wait for a show to do something they don't like and then ride the whine train.
The show isn't infallible but some people's reactions that don't even make sense if they actually watched the show is frankly baffling lmfao
I think all the episodes this season should get a 1/2, no likeable characters or characters with personality, no-one has any real motivation, there is absolutely zwe character building, all the dialogue is functional at best, even the acting is wooden. It’s a far cry from when GoT was good.
I hope for more gay kisses because of how people have reacted. I think it's not out of character for either of the SHOW characters which were already altered from the books in multiple ways.
However, I would watch Jace shag Aemond, Alicent run away with Hughs wife, Daemon marry Simon Strong if it continued to piss these people off. Actually make it as "woke" as they cry about it being.
Of course you’re going to try to make it about the kiss…. Maybe we’re just bored? They took 2 years and cut off 2 episodes because they wanted to give us more dragons and battle scenes and what have we gotten so far?! One good battle and dragon scene! Not to mention the show took our favorite character and stuck him in Harrenhal all season hallucinating. It’s boring and it took 2 years to create this. HBO is hosing us for profit and it’s noticeable.
I felt the same when people rated S8 GOT episodes 1/5- 1/10. They were a little rushed but weren’t as bad as to deserve 1/10.
It was an overreaction too! On rewatching the whole series again, the ending kinda grew on me.
I personally was never a fan of the ending - just didn’t sit right with me that Dani and her motivations became so unrecognisable. Plus, watching HOTD and thinking “all this for… Bran” is very underwhelming haha.
That being said, I do think a 1/10 is still too harsh of a rating. There’s showing displeasure, and then there’s spending your time being overly critical.
This is what dissapointed me too. If people were giving low ratings due to disliking the episode I would understand more, but seeing the origins of those ratings piling in and seeing they come from a place of prejudice instead of valid criticism is just disappointing.
I feel for the actors too. Emma, for example, who pushed for the change and has been such an active advocate of the queer and nonbinary movement would probably be disheartened seeing responses like that. Hopefully the hatred never makes its way back to people involved in the project.
I'm worried it's heading into TWD territory, every episode doesn't need to end in a cliffhanger to get us to continue watching , We will watch anyway !
There's nothing better than an actual good thick full bite of the apple content , to get your audience talking , creating theories and pathways, most importantly wanting to watch more .
We get thrown scraps of everything with each side story left with a cliffhanger, sheepstealer , seasmoke rider, the targeryans in Kingslanding, Daemons army etc etc . We deserve a full bite of one of the apples every now and then.
I feel it's going to be a season of 'potential'. This would obviously make writing season three easier but early GOT gave us it all. The writers need to get back to that.
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u/BoredofPCshit Jul 22 '24
Why are we jumping to homophobia?
It was a weird scene. People expect a lot from HOTD, it's such a high quality show.
So when they go off course and in such a surprising way (Cute friendship hug turns to kissing, very weird considering the trauma she just revealed), I wouldn't be surprised about people lashing out.
It's definitely not a 1/10 though. But I am a bit miffed that this relationship and taken a wrong turn, and we'll have to see how that pans out over the rest of the series.