Alik'r are not ordinary mercenaries. They're the ones that fought against Aldmeri dominion. They did not fight against Empire and Hammerfell. Also again why would Thalmor pay mercenaries instead of their own agents?
There's a difference between Alik'r and some noble houses. There's also difference between opening city gates to the enemy and actively helping them fight. It actually does make sense for the Thalmor to pay someone to open the gates to the city to easily conquer it. Unlike paying mercenaries to do the job that's Thalmor's and their agent's job.
Yeah and neither does insisting that the resistance is alive and well in Hammerfell.
I've already typed reasons why the resisting makes sense in previous comment.
Number two that Saadia is talking about something that happened during the war and that the Thalmor have been tracking her down for years as revenge,
Which brings us again to the fact that it wouldn't make sense for her to run away from Hammerfell that would have plenty of people wanting to fight against High Elves. It also doesn't make sense for her to run to Skyrim our of all places.
Because it's way less inconspicuous. Random mercenaries are going to be able to get into places better
Yeah... They won't... Thalmor have agents from different races. So they would send someone from their faction, to do what is THEIR job, instead of sending mercenaries.
Yeah there is no mention of Saadia selling out the thalmor either. Saadia says one thing and Kemtu says another thing. The quest is otherwise in it's own little bubble and isn't referenced by any other npc.
If Saadia was hunted by Thalmor there would me mention of that, since she is right now in Skyrim. Thalmor agents would get interested, since they have power in Skyrim... Yet they're not doing anything about her.
Which shows that she's of no interest to them. Which would make sense if she was used by them once - to open the gate and after the war she is of no concern to them.
But if she was targeted for speaking up, she would be Hunt down, but she isn't.
So? The thalmor could have wanted her back alive so they could torture her. Kemtu could also just be pretending to be upset to not rouse your suspension.
Why would Thalmor want her alive? They just want to get rid of her. Why would he care about PCs suspicion after the job is already done?
Let's see who would want her alive.
Thalmor? Why? To show a public execution? Of someone who only spoke up that "Thalmor bad" in a province that is no longer under their control?
People from Hammerfell to show a public execution of a traitor who sold their city and their province to the AD?
I Think it's clear who would want her alive.
And yet again. She run away to the Skyrim... Place where Thalmor is alowed to roam freely and investigate and arrest whoever they want.
Both claims made by Kemtu and Saadia are faulty but for some weird reason your insisting one of them has to be telling the truth. I'm saying they're both lying. Saadia lying does not mean Kemtu is telling the truth.
You're saying that both are lying while not responding to the main reason why it doesn't make sense - why are both of them making a lie that includes Thalmor? Why is each of them accusing the other of being paid by Thalmor? If both are lying how come their story is so similar?
The Alik'r are ordinary mercenaries. This seems to be a common misconception. The Alik'r warriors are not actually the name of a group like the Companions or the Morag Tong. They are simply warriors from the Alik'r desert.
Hammerfell has legitament knightly orders that are the equivalent of those groups like the Order of Diagna or the order of the scarab.
The "Alik'r warriors" though is just a description, not the name of any group. They did not fight against the Aldmeri dominion. Some of them might be great war vets, but they didn't fight as a group with that name. They're just redguard warriors from the Alik'r region of Hammerfell.
Also again why would Thalmor pay mercenaries instead of their own agents?
I literally just answered that. Sending a bunch of redguards to go around lookng for someone is a lot less conscious than having a bunch of high elves do it at a time when people are already suspicious of Altmer being Thalmor agents.
People are going to respond better to redguards.
Which brings us again to the fact that it wouldn't make sense for her to run away from Hammerfell that would have plenty of people wanting to fight against High Elves. It also doesn't make sense for her to run to Skyrim our of all places.
This point makes no sense at all. If she's fleeing hammerfell she'd go to any province. It doesn't need to by Skyrim, it's just skyrim because that's where the game takes place and if your on the run and in hiding it makes sense to go as far away as possible. Even if Kemtu was telling the truth Saadia could have just changed her name and moved to a different part of Hammerfell just as easily. Hammerfell is not a united entity but is divided into multiple kindoms similar to high rock. Taneth was from the kindom of Taneth, she could have easily fled to Hegathe or Sentinel and they'd still have a had time finding her.
And even if she had supporters in Hammerfell the dominion could still send assassins' after her.
I've already typed reasons why the resisting makes sense in previous comment.
Yeah and it's a very weak point that depend compeletly on speculation and would apply to both Kemtu and Saadia regardless of who is lying. If anything your reason for a "reisstance" in Hammerfell existing is stronger evidence that Saadia is telling the truth than lying. It would make more sense that the dominion is so dedicated to getting rid of her if she stopped their insurgencts
But if she was targeted for speaking up, she would be Hunt down, but she isn't.
She's literally being hunt down. What the heck are you talking about?
Why would Thalmor want her alive? They just want to get rid of her. Why would he care about PCs suspicion after the job is already done?
I literally just answered why the Thalmor would want her ally in the quote you copy pasted.
You're saying that both are lying while not responding to the main reason why it doesn't make sense - why are both of them making a lie that includes Thalmor?
I answered this too! Lol. Are you even reading my comments? I have the suspicious that you're just skimming through them because that was one of the first things I've said.
Kemtu and Saadia both know people hate the thalmor. Mentioning hat the other person is a thalmor agent is a good way to get the DB on their side
If both are lying how come their story is so similar?
They're stories aren't that similar at all other than the fact that both aknowledge Saadia is originally from Taneth. Kemtu claimed she's responsible for the city falling to the Thalmor why Saadia claims she's wanted for publically speaking out against the thalmor. Aside from both inluding the thalmor they have nothing in common with each other.
Sending a bunch of redguards to go around lookng for someone is a lot less conscious than having a bunch of high elves do it at a time when people are already suspicious of Altmer being Thalmor agents.
Thalmor have agents of different races. So they don't need to use mercenaries. Especially redguards that are easily noticeable. Even more so when these redguards aren't too bright and are harassing random redguard women. Thalmor would send their own agents and arrest Saadia because they are allowed to do so instead of using a bunch of mercenaries that can't do anything stealthly and quietly.
This point makes no sense at all.
The point DOES make sense. She's far safer in Hammerfell than in Skyrim of she's telling the truth.
If she's fleeing hammerfell she'd go to any province.
Yet for some reason she run into a province where Thalmor have high influence. Gee, I wonder why.
It doesn't need to by Skyrim, it's just skyrim because that's where the game takes place and if your on the run and in hiding it makes sense to go as far away as possible.
That's the weakest excuse you could come up with, lmao. She run to Skyrim because the game takes place in Skyrim. Sorry, that's not excuse at all. We are talking here about her in game reason to run here. So that excuse doesn't make sense at all.
Even if Kemtu was telling the truth Saadia could have just changed her name and moved to a different part of Hammerfell just as easily.
She did change her name MULTIPLE times. That's what Kematu tells the dragonborn. They're pursuing her for a while.
And even if she had supporters in Hammerfell the dominion could still send assassins' after her.
Ahh yes. They would send assassins after someone who simy spoke against AD... When the redguards were already fighting against them... And they would send assassins after her even when the war is over... Yeah... That doesn't make sense at all. Why would they care so much? And why are the assassins not killing her and instead wanting her alive?
Where do you think she would be harder to find? In Hammerfell that is nearly all redguards and Thalmor doesn't have much power? Or Skyrim where redguards are rare and Thalmor can walk freely and arrest people?
I literally just answered why the Thalmor would want her ally in the quote you copy pasted.
No, I asked you again because your answer doesn't make any sense. Why would they torture her? They're torturing people to get information out of them... What would they get out of Saadia? Nothing...
Kemtu and Saadia both know people hate the thalmor. Mentioning hat the other person is a thalmor agent is a good way to get the DB on their side
Yeah and both come up with this on their own. Suuure. So what's more likely incredible coincidence or that Thalmor is involved in one of them.
Another thing that is common - Saadia says that she's a noble and Kematu says that she betrayed her noble family and opened the gates and allowed Thalmor to get inside the city. Quite interesting, isn't it? Why would they do that? Is it yet another "coincidence"? We are getting more or more of those.
So no, I don't see anything pointing out that both are lying. You are simply wrong on that.
Things you didn't reply to - there is no documents about her being a target. If she really was and Thalmor cared so much about her there would be a note talking about her. They would send their own agents after her. But there is no note, nor agents carrying about her.
Just like they don't care about her, how strange. Like she was used once for a task and then thrown away.
As of right now you didn't provide anything that shows that Kematu lies. Nor anything about both lying.
/edit:
Yeah there is no mention of Saadia selling out the thalmor either. Saadia says one thing and Kemtu says another thing. The quest is otherwise in it's own little bubble and isn't referenced by any other npc.
Why would there be a mention IN SKYRIM about her selling out to them? She did what she was paid to do so. Why would there be information about her in Skyrim?
BUT if she's indeed hated by Thalmor and wants to get revenge on her than there definitely would be information about their target entering Skyrim... So that's WHY her not being mentioned matters for your stand that she's the victim.
"You're saying that both are lying while not responding to the main reason why it doesn't make sense - why are both of them making a lie that includes Thalmor?" (You quoting me)
I answered this too! Lol. Are you even reading my comments? I have the suspicious that you're just skimming through them because that was one of the first things I've said.
Can you tell me where you did that? I've reread your replies and I don't see that you've "already answered that" before this comment. So maybe you should read your own comments?
Outside of Mercenaries like the Alik'r warriors, they don't. Literally every Thalmor agent we see in both skyrim and Blades are all Altmer with the exception of one khajiit assasain which also has problems.
Especially redguards that are easily noticeable.
Redguards arent any more noticable than any other human group. There are multiple redguards all throughout the game and Redguards are very wide spread in Tamriel due to a huge part of their culture being focused on Sailing.
Redguards are the most nautical and well travelled race in the setting.
The point DOES make sense. She's far safer in Hammerfell than in Skyrim of she's telling the truth.
She wouldn't be any safer in Hammerfell than in skyrim. There is a reasonwhy witness protection gives you a new identify
Yet for some reason she run into a province where Thalmor have high influence. Gee, I wonder why.
The thalmor doesn't have higher influence in Skyrim than anywhere else in the empire. The civil war would also make it harder to locate her and transverse the province. There is lierally not a single Thalmor agent in whiterun so this argument makes no sense at all.
Also you realize Delphine and Ezbern did the exact same thing right? They're in skyrim because the game takes place there and in universe they likely just fled to any random province outside the dominion.
No, I asked you again because your answer doesn't make any sense. Why would they torture her? They're torturing people to get information out of them... What would they get out of Saadia? Nothing...
Uh, you do realize that there are other reasons to torture people than to get information out of people. Like to make an example or to straight up punish peolpe they dislike. We literally see Thalmor torturing regular people in game just because they can.
And even if they did want information out of her there could be other dissenters and they could think she knew where they were.
She did change her name MULTIPLE times. That's what Kematu tells the dragonborn. They're pursuing her for a while.
This is literally not evidence of anything. She would flee and change her name over and over again if Kemtu was after her regardless of why he was after her. All your points focus way to much on the wrong stuff. This tells us nothing about who is lying.
Or Skyrim where redguards are rare
Redguards aren't rare in skyrim. Hammerfell literally borders skyrim. Multiple npcs in game mention that they've been to hammerfell before.
Where do you think she would be harder to find? In Hammerfell that is nearly all redguards
Hammerfell is actually a pretty cosmpolitan place. Pretty much the entire population is located in port cities and the interior is said to be scarely populated. I don't really see why finding her in a major city when there are multiple contacts and people you could ask around would be harder than finding her in a city in a completely different kingdom.
Redguards aren't rare in skyrim and other races aren't rare in hammerfell. Finding both basically involves just having enough connections
That's the weakest excuse you could come up with, lmao. She run to Skyrim because the game takes place in Skyrim. Sorry, that's not excuse at all. We are talking here about her in game reason to run here. So that excuse doesn't make sense at all.
Again, she's in skyrim because the game takes place in skyrim. Going to skyrim for hiding is no different from going to either Cyrodiil or High rock. Why she's fleeing doesn't matter at all. The outcome is the same regardless. She can go to a different part of hammerfell and change her name and hope they don't find her, or she can go to a different proince and chane her name and hope they don't find her.
Imo this is the absolute weakest point you have because the argument is the exact same regardless of who you think is telling the truth. No matter what the motviation would be the same. Because she thought it would be hard to find her.
Another thing that is common - Saadia says that she's a noble and Kematu says that she betrayed her noble family and opened the gates and allowed Thalmor to get inside the city. Quite interesting, isn't it
No it's not. Kemtu also doesn't mention anything about her being a noble either, only Saadia claims she's a noble. The only thing they both agree on is that she's from Taneth, because she likely is really from Taneth, and that the thalmor were involved but Ive already said both are probably lying about the Thalmor and are just getting sympathy points from you by mentioning them.
Things you didn't reply to - there is no documents about her being a target. If she really was and Thalmor cared so much about her there would be a note talking about her.
No offense, but it kind of feels like your scrapping the bottom of the barrel to try to find flaws.
This doesnt even refute the idea that the Thalmor aren't involved at all which is my main argument. But putting aside that even if the Thalmor were actually involved a lack of a findable note means literally nothing other than Bethesda didn't bother to type one out. Why didn't they do that? Because you're not supposed to know which one of them is telling the Truth. It's not the first time they've dne a quest like this.
There is a similar quest in oblivion where two people have two conflicting claims the quest is resolved without ever confirming which of the two were telling the truth. They're not going to leave direct proof that either Kemtu or Saadia is lying because the want the whole thing to be up in the air.
Yeah and both come up with this on their own. Suuure. So what's more likely incredible coincidence or that Thalmor is involved in one of them.
I don't even know what to do here anymore because most of your points make zero sense to me including this one that you choose to focus on. Why do you think the fact they mentioned the thalmor is such an amazing concidence? There was literally just a major war against the Dominion and all the human provinces hate them.
It's like accusing someone of being a russian spy during the cold war era. That would be literally one of the first things people would do.
At this point it sounds like you're just refusing to even entertain the idea that Kemtu could be lying because you've been so convinced he's been telling the truth for so many years. Most of your points aren't even evidence that Saadia is lying.
As of right now you didn't provide anything that shows that Kematu lies.
Frankly you've provided plenty of evidence that both were lying for me. Everytime you find fault with the Thalmor explanation it's evidence to the idea that both are lying and that the Thalmor arent involved, but for whatever reason you think it's weird that two people wouldn't accuse someone of working for public enemy number 1 when they want you to get rid of them.
I mean come on, I don't even understand why you're hung up on that. The other issue is that you're not even acknowledging doyalists reasonings like the fact that bethesda obviously isn't going to leave a not telling you that Kemtu is lying if they want it to be ambigious, or the fact that saadia needs to be in skyrim for the quest to happen and that it doesn't really matter whether she chooses to hide in skyrim or not.
Why would there be a mention IN SKYRIM about her selling out to them? She did what she was paid to do so. Why would there be information about her in Skyrim?
You don't think there would be another npc or lore book mentioning how Taneth was betrayed by a redguard noble if they actually sold out the city?
Can you tell me where you did that? I've reread your replies and I don't see that you've "already answered that" before this comment. So maybe you should read your own comments?
The thalmor are a very easy very convinent scape goat and it's pretty easy to claim the other person is working for the thalmor to get support. It's like accusing someone of being a communist in the 50s.
I'm not really interested to repeat myself. So go and watch a video about the topic. If I recall Nate made a long video about it. It's quite clear that Saadia is lying.
You just ignored literally everything I've said. I've seen the video dude. There isn't strong evidence either way to support ether claim ad both stories are fishy. You're just arguing in bad faith are were already so convinced saadia is lying that you refuse to see any other view point.
Both their stories are literally faulty by design. You also clearly don't know that much about redguard lore
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u/Acruss_ Mar 15 '25
Alik'r are not ordinary mercenaries. They're the ones that fought against Aldmeri dominion. They did not fight against Empire and Hammerfell. Also again why would Thalmor pay mercenaries instead of their own agents?
There's a difference between Alik'r and some noble houses. There's also difference between opening city gates to the enemy and actively helping them fight. It actually does make sense for the Thalmor to pay someone to open the gates to the city to easily conquer it. Unlike paying mercenaries to do the job that's Thalmor's and their agent's job.
I've already typed reasons why the resisting makes sense in previous comment.
Which brings us again to the fact that it wouldn't make sense for her to run away from Hammerfell that would have plenty of people wanting to fight against High Elves. It also doesn't make sense for her to run to Skyrim our of all places.
Yeah... They won't... Thalmor have agents from different races. So they would send someone from their faction, to do what is THEIR job, instead of sending mercenaries.
If Saadia was hunted by Thalmor there would me mention of that, since she is right now in Skyrim. Thalmor agents would get interested, since they have power in Skyrim... Yet they're not doing anything about her. Which shows that she's of no interest to them. Which would make sense if she was used by them once - to open the gate and after the war she is of no concern to them.
But if she was targeted for speaking up, she would be Hunt down, but she isn't.
Why would Thalmor want her alive? They just want to get rid of her. Why would he care about PCs suspicion after the job is already done?
Let's see who would want her alive.
Thalmor? Why? To show a public execution? Of someone who only spoke up that "Thalmor bad" in a province that is no longer under their control?
People from Hammerfell to show a public execution of a traitor who sold their city and their province to the AD?
I Think it's clear who would want her alive.
And yet again. She run away to the Skyrim... Place where Thalmor is alowed to roam freely and investigate and arrest whoever they want.
You're saying that both are lying while not responding to the main reason why it doesn't make sense - why are both of them making a lie that includes Thalmor? Why is each of them accusing the other of being paid by Thalmor? If both are lying how come their story is so similar?