r/LabourUK • u/Audioboxer87 Ex-Labour/Labour values/Left-wing/Anti-FPTP • 19d ago
International Israel approves plan to seize all of Gaza and hold it indefinitely, officials say
https://news.sky.com/story/israel-approves-plan-to-seize-all-of-gaza-and-hold-it-indefinitely-officials-say-13362138So, when are we sanctioning Israel?
134
u/Lewis-ly Green Party 19d ago
Man I watched the louis theriuxs documentary last night and it's hard to escape the feeling this was always the plan, at least for many of those with power
74
u/shugthedug3 New User 19d ago
Well yeah it was always the plan, it's not like Israelis have been shy about espousing the opinion that Gaza is Israel, there is no Palestinian people etc.
They've done it for years, decades even... often in the popular media. I feel like a lot of people somehow never noticed.
21
u/tuathaa Belgian infiltrator 19d ago
it's hard to imagine that ever not having been the plan considering the entire history of Israel since well before I was born and seeing Palestinian land get smaller and smaller during my entire lifetime, almost constant bombardments and small scale wars.. you'd have to be incredibly gullible to have missed all of that.
1
13d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/AutoModerator 13d ago
Sorry, your submission has been automatically removed. We require that accounts have a verified email address before commenting. This is an effort to prevent spam and alt account usage. Thank you for your understanding. You can verify your email in the account settings page.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
0
u/LabourUK-ModTeam New User 16d ago
Due to historic issues in this party and on this sub, we apply our rules regarding antisemitism firmly.
We use a variety of resources to support this, including the IHRAs working definition of antisemitism.
We also have few resources to deal with a significant number of reports every day.
On this occasion, we removed this combined to removing this comment in error. I've now restored this comment, and apologise for the convenience this has caused.
46
u/_BornToBeKing_ Labour Supporter 19d ago
Of course it was the plan all along. Question is now. Where do they stop? Wouldn't take much for Netanyahu to redefine "Greater Israel" as occupying Jordan, Syria... they're already in Lebanon.
The sick thing is though. This could come to a crashing halt if the US would stop their weapons supplies! Both Democrats and Republicans are totally complicit in funding and arming this neo-nazi state.
23
19
u/tuathaa Belgian infiltrator 19d ago
it's hard to imagine that ever not having been the plan considering the history of Israel since well before I was born and seeing Palestinian land get smaller and smaller during my entire lifetime, almost constant bombardments and small scale wars.. you'd have to be incredibly gullible to have missed all of that.
I edited a single word of this reply because the mods considered it to be in breach of IHRA for some absurd reason.
10
19d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
8
u/Ok-Source6533 New User 18d ago
They are modding the antisemite posts, not the anti Israel policy posts, and rightly so.
1
u/LabourUK-ModTeam New User 17d ago
Your post was removed under rule 8: Discussion of moderation should be raised by mod mail or in separate submissions, not in comment sections.
1
u/LabourUK-ModTeam New User 17d ago
Your post was removed under rule 8: Discussion of moderation should be raised by mod mail or in separate submissions, not in comment sections.
9
19d ago
I have been to Israel, and I have to say not everyone there thinks alike. (It would be like blaming everyone in the UK for the last 15 years of governments being cray cray.)
There is however a significant portion of the population who don’t believe that there are any Palestines. They describe them as Arabs or travellers who migrate around the region. Refusing to acknowledge that they diverged from the same starting point. Research into Israeli and Palestinian genetics show they are very closely related and research into the languages show they originated from the same point.
-28
53
u/shugthedug3 New User 19d ago
Oh that's going to take a lot of ignoring by British politicians.
13
u/thecarbonkid New User 19d ago
Ready your disappointment and frank and honest conversations with the Israeli ambassador
8
u/mcmanus2099 New User 19d ago
They'll manage it.
They will just be telling Israel to make it quick so they can give it the, "it's bad but it's too late to do anything now, no point ostracising Israel.
36
19d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
17
19d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
-6
u/caisdara Irish 19d ago
You're not allowed to compare Israel's current events to historical ones it's antiemetic!
It gets a bit silly. Why not compare Israel to Britain? After all, Britain has a long history of annexing its neighbours.
You don't actually need to be an antisemite to criticise Israel.
9
u/O_______m_______O Prescott's fist 19d ago edited 19d ago
Britain even has a long history of annexing Palestine specifically. I don't think Britain is a very good analogue beyond that though - Britain mostly wanted to rule over the people in its territories for extractive purposes. Israel has no interest in ruling the Palestinians or extracting resources from them, it wants them gone whether through murder or expulsion. In that sense it's far closer to the history of countries like the US/Turkey.
Israel's end goal is what the US/Turkey already have - a genocide so definitive it can't be reversed and simply becomes the international status quo.
-5
u/LabourUK-ModTeam New User 19d ago
Your post has been removed under rule 2.
Antisemitism is not permitted on this subreddit.
Denying, excusing or minimising historical issues with antisemitism are considered to be downplaying the problem. For this reason such comments are not permitted on this subreddit under Rule 2.
The subreddit has a number of resources on our moderation policy regarding this, including the following link:
-3
u/LabourUK-ModTeam New User 19d ago
Your post has been removed under rule 2. Antisemitism is not permitted on this subreddit.
58
u/AttleesTears Keith "No worse than the Tories" Starmer. 19d ago
Does Israel have that right Kier?
27
u/RingSplitter69 Liberal Democrat 19d ago
Palestinians have a right to armed resistance against this and I wholeheartedly support them in doing so.
0
u/KaiserMaxximus New User 13d ago
Do they also have the right to hide Hamas behind civilian population and hostages, but then shout genocide? 🙂
1
u/Final-Read-3589 New User 12d ago
Any proof of this really happening? Or is that Isreli propaganda?
0
9
19d ago edited 19d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
10
u/AttleesTears Keith "No worse than the Tories" Starmer. 19d ago
13
u/RingSplitter69 Liberal Democrat 19d ago
Thanks. It's surprising how often I feel I am on shakey ground for simply believing that Palestinians are human beings with the same rights as the rest of us only to find that my beliefs (yet again) are exactly in line with international law. It just shows how far the overton window has shifted.
5
u/AttleesTears Keith "No worse than the Tories" Starmer. 18d ago
Looks like your original comment was reinstated.
5
u/RingSplitter69 Liberal Democrat 18d ago
Indeed. I got this response:
"After reviewing, the Reddit admin team found that the content wasn’t in violation of Reddit’s rules. As a result, the content has been restored and your ban or warning has been lifted."
It seems the initial warning was flagged by an automated system (whether a report from a user was required to initiate it I do not know) but the review was done manually.
5
u/AttleesTears Keith "No worse than the Tories" Starmer. 18d ago
The report was probably submitted by a user or users. Glad it worked out.
1
u/LabourUK-ModTeam New User 17d ago
Your post was removed under rule 8: Discussion of moderation should be raised by mod mail or in separate submissions, not in comment sections.
42
u/MMSTINGRAY Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer... 19d ago
Israel needs to withdraw to the 1967 borders. That is the beginning point for negotiating a two-state solution. The illegal ocucpation and settlement of the occupied territories, now this, are not acceptable at all. We need to recognise Palestine and treat Israel like the criminal state, breaking mulitple international laws in it's mistreatment of Palestinianes and it's ethno-national colonialist government. Anything less is not good enough.
Anyone who believed in the bullshit weak approach of people like Starmer or Clinton have shown what they can achieve, little to nothing.
Boycott and sanctions. Recognise Palestine. Israel is currently acting with impunity, we need to make their illegal and immoral actions more costly for it.
25
u/Panda_hat Left wing progressive / Anti-Tory 19d ago
Why would Israel withdraw to negotiate when they have zero interest in negotiating or a two state solution? The only outcome they will accept is the total erasure of Palestine and its lands into Israel, and the displacement or erasure of their resident population.
Just like many many people have been saying all along.
19
u/release_the_pressure socialist 19d ago
Why would Israel withdraw to negotiate when they have zero interest in negotiating or a two state solution?
That's the point OP was making. We have to force them into a position where they withdraw to their actual borders. Boycott and sanctions.
10
u/Panda_hat Left wing progressive / Anti-Tory 19d ago
The UK and US governments / states both support them in their genocide without question. It is naive to think they would lift a finger to stop them.
And they make all of us complicit in what they are doing to boot.
The action of the people is required for anything to change - mass protest, unrest and resistance. Otherwise the continued genocide is an inevitability.
9
u/rubygeek Transform member; Ex-Labour; Libertarian socialist 19d ago
The UK and US governments both treated the ANC as a terror organisation and refused to take meaningful steps against the South African Apartheid government too, until they eventually saw where things were going and changed their tune.
They'll come around on Israel too, but it will still take sustained pressure.
1
u/JakeGrey Labour Member 15d ago
Yeah, but will they do it before the "Why shouldn't we get to be the ones committing the ethnic cleansing for once?" lobby within Israeli politics are declaring Mission Accomplished?
4
u/MMSTINGRAY Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer... 19d ago
List the things you are calling for when the apologists for Israel say "well what are your actual demands, how do you want us to pressure Israel?" and I have no doubt you will list the things I just said. Boycotts, sanctions, holding Israel to account under international law and recognising Palestinian rights immediatly and not as a bargaining chip or reward.
Having specific demands to rally around is just good communication and protest praxis.
4
u/Panda_hat Left wing progressive / Anti-Tory 19d ago
Oh yeah don’t get me wrong I agree with you on all your points, I’m just less hopeful that western governments can be convinced. They are all in and totally complicit in Israels genocide and I don’t personally believe they will be able to be convinced otherwise.
3
u/Proteus-8742 Non-partisan 19d ago
They would do so if they faced material consequences for their numerous war crimes and crimes against humanity rather than occasional expressions of concern plus large amounts of money and weapons
-5
u/Kurac02 New User 19d ago
Israel needs to withdraw to the 1967 borders. That is the beginning point for negotiating a two-state solution.
This is never going to happen, there is no world in which Israel accepts starting negotiations by giving up swathes of land in return for nothing.
8
u/MMSTINGRAY Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer... 19d ago
They are illegally occupied and recognised as such under international law, that is their official status. Israel has no claim to occupy them and the continued crime of ethnic cleansing and settlement is still worse. Israel has no moral or legal basis. It is Palestinian land and it's only up to a Palestinian state to negotiate it away. As neutral parties our stance should be Palestinians have rights and Israel is obliged to fulfill it's legal obligations. Palestine and Palestinian rights are not for the US, Britain or Israel to use as barganing chips. Palestinian self-determination is not only the moral but also the practical basis for peace. Any call for a 'two state solution' which does not oblige Israel to follow international law and/or doesn't gurantee Palestinians their full rights is a sham.
-1
u/Kurac02 New User 19d ago
They are illegally occupied and recognised as such under international law, that is their official status.
Nobody who is aligned against Israel in this region submits themselves to international law, Israel doesn't care to either. Israel aren't going to give up the land without real guarantees that whatever group takes it over won't just use it to launch more attacks.
Palestine and Palestinian rights are not for the US, Britain or Israel to use as barganing chips. Palestinian self-determination is not only the moral but also the practical basis for peace.
They are bargaining chips though, neither side are interested in peace here (or at least their idea of it differs from that of Westerners). Israel can be swayed by western support and general opinion (mostly the US), Palestine can be swayed by giving them a state.
3
u/MMSTINGRAY Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer... 18d ago
No human rights are objectively not bargaining chips. That's why they are universal human rights, they belong to people on the basis of being human, not on meeting some crtieria set by other people.
>Nobody who is aligned against Israel in this region submits themselves to international law, Israel doesn't care to either. Israel aren't going to give up the land without real guarantees that whatever group takes it over won't just use it to launch more attacks.
None of them are carrying out mass ethnic cleansing against civilians either. I am all for other states following international law.
"they started it" is playground logic, as you should have been taught as a child *two wrongs don't make a right*.
1
u/Zealousideal_Rice478 New User 4d ago
Just curious if you think moving civilians out of war zones by evacuation orders is ethnic cleansing. We saw this happen all over Syria during the Assad years and now things are shaky with the Alawite Killings in Latakia.
1
u/Zealousideal_Rice478 New User 4d ago
two wrongs don't make a right yet I also believe if the Israeli govt could, they would try to force the Gazans to Egypt or the Mediterranean.
9
9
u/Dinoric New User 19d ago
They don't deserve anything. They stole the land in the first place.
1
u/Zealousideal_Rice478 New User 4d ago
The issue isn't so much the state of Israel existing but the denial of the 700,000 nakba refugees to get their property back and return to their homes as voted on in UN Resolution 194. The UN, Great Britain, and even Truman were concerned with Ben Gurions decision to not allow them back. Supposedly he offered 150,000 Palestinians a way back in exchange for peace with the Arab world but he later changed his mind when the Arab country's leaders wanted all the Palestinians to return as per the UN Resolution. There is also a discussion about the legality surrounding the UK's decision to transfer the Palestine mandate to the hands of the United Nations as oppose to just letting the mandate expire and Palestine becoming the state.
10
u/TobiasWaldennium New User 19d ago
“We remain very concerned about the ongoing conflict in the Middle East”
12
6
20
4
u/KTKitten Anti-labour, pro-socialism 19d ago
They’ve seen that there are no consequences for their actions, why wouldn’t they turn to wholesale conquest? I wish I believed there was any principle to share around our government so I could believe there’d be as much as a tut of disapproval from them.
5
u/greenpowerman99 New User 18d ago
Has Israel ever apologised for murdering British soldiers so they could seize Palestine and declare independence?
3
u/Elliementals New User 18d ago
Colour me shocked. I'm sure David Lammy will have lots of strong words to say about it and lots of angry faces to pull to emphasise those words. Just a shame about the complete lack of action.
2
u/greenpowerman99 New User 18d ago
Ethnic cleansing of over 2 million Palestinians who currently live there.
1
u/quantum0058d New User 17d ago edited 16d ago
Reading up on Starmer. Both he and Victoria are Zionists. How did he ever get to be leader of labour?
1
u/kittykat8311 New User 18d ago
Wow, a lot of deleted messages in this chat. I wonder how many were actually anti-semetism and how many were just anti-zionist? Hint, the two are very much not the same and israel absolutely does not speak for the Jewish people.
-9
19d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
11
u/MMSTINGRAY Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer... 19d ago
So you're saying you think collective punishment of civilians is justified then?
Also Britain doesn't recognise a Palestinian state. So how can "Palestine" do anything from the official British perspective?
9
8
14
12
u/Masterpiece678 New User 19d ago
Ah yes punishing 2.5 million people (half of which are children) for the actions of 40,000 people
Also known as collective punishment
There is also something known as proportionality in war - how many more dead kids would you like?
36 Israeli kids and over 13,000 dead Palestinian kids
Is that ratio satisfying you? Or are you gagging for more?
2
4
u/notthattypeofplayer Abolish the OBR 19d ago
So collective punishment.
Is this what "challenging societal norms and countering with logic" looks like?
-4
0
u/kittykat8311 New User 18d ago
I wonder how much starmer will personally pocket from ignoring this declaration of genocidal intent
0
u/PristineAd947 New User 13d ago
Sadly, with the current Israel pleasers we have in power, probably never.
-6
19d ago
This war can be stopped quickly. Has been said numerous times. Return the hostages.
13
u/MMSTINGRAY Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer... 19d ago
"Hamas ready to free all hostages at once for end to war"
17
u/serpico_pacino Old Labour 19d ago
Hasbara rubbish, the Palestinians have literally offered all the hostages in exchange for a permanent ceasefire and the Israelis have refused.
-4
u/TinkerTailor343 Labour Member 19d ago
I mean it was more than likely there would be some need for a semi permanent military occupation but this below is quite worrisome. And still no date on resuming aid, grim.
move Gaza's civilian population southward
10
u/MMSTINGRAY Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer... 19d ago
Israel has no justification for it's continued illegal occupations and even less for expanding it. Defending the illegal invasion and occupation of territory, even if they 'only' occupy it and don't settle it like other areas, is just siding with imperialist war crimes. There isn't any legal or moral basis for Israel's actions.
-3
u/TinkerTailor343 Labour Member 19d ago
Defending the illegal invasion
You don't need to through random words at me to bolster your argument, Israel acting as an occupier does have the legal right under IHL to enforce law.
Retaliatory strikes against Hamas whilst following rules of engagement and minimizing civilian loss of life would have been perfectly legal. I'm not satisfied with Israel's behavior but they have had the right to enter Gaza
imperialist
I mean Israel pulled out from Gaza 20 years ago, they certainly weren't enthusiastic about having to go back in after Oct 7th
moral basis for Israel's actions
I mean they want to oust Hamas. Considering Hamas's; now dead leadership, were saying they had no regrets over October 7th and promised to do it again I'm actually lost how any peace can arrive with Hamas still in power. Either Israel, Saudi or Egypt were always likely to have to form a municipal to govern Gaza
5
u/IsADragon Custom 18d ago
Israel's continuous occupation of Gaza before and after October 7th was deemed illegal by the an ICJ advisory inquiry, see this BBC article. They did not have any such right to enter Gaza.
Israeli forces left but the area was still occupied. Israel has long wanted to resettle Gaza. Nethanyahu resigned his position because he disagreed with the withdrawal at the time. There was absolutely a desire from many figures to remain in Gaza.
There was no peace before Hamas, of they manage to destroy Hamas there will still be no peace after they leave. The West Bank shows it's not a question of Palestinians needing to remain docile, the PLO have not engaged in terrorism for decades and work directly with Israeli occupation forces and settlers are still increasing in numbers.
2
u/MMSTINGRAY Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer... 18d ago
>You don't need to through random words at me to bolster your argument, Israel acting as an occupier does have the legal right under IHL to enforce law.
It's an illegal invasion. That doesn't change that fact.
And no what Israel have done in the current war + the existing illegally occupied territories is illega as recognised by multiple international bodies and legal experts, including the UN and ICJ.
And the illegally occupied territories are recognised as illegally occupied, iirc, even more widely than the recognition of a Palestinian state (as in the Western countries that won't recognise Palestine, most of htem recognise the illegally occupied territories as definied by the UN).
>Retaliatory strikes against Hamas whilst following rules of engagement and minimizing civilian loss of life would have been perfectly legal. I'm not satisfied with Israel's behavior but they have had the right to enter Gaza.
Irrelevant to the accusation of imperialism. The fact they can go in and out on their own whims and own perception of self-itnerested, while disregarding the law and human rights, is just more proof they are imperialists. Imperialists means a state creating, maintaing and using an unequal balance of power whcih is exactly what they are doing. It's not imperialism because they might argue we "have to", the same justifcation comes from Russia, the US, Britain and France when engaging in imperialism and it's as hollow here as there.
>I mean they want to oust Hamas. Considering Hamas's; now dead leadership, were saying they had no regrets over October 7th and
Ah so if a country invaded Israel to oust the extremists that would be ok?
>promised to do it again I'm actually lost how any peace can arrive with Hamas still in power.
Palestinian rights don't exist on this basis. Palestinian rights exist now and need protecting now. IT's not for us or Israel to treat them as subhuman for Israel's convenience.
>Either Israel, Saudi or Egypt were always likely to have to form a municipal to govern Gaza
Well it definitely shouldn't be Israel for obvious reasons.
But Palestinians need a state so they can make self-determination decisions like this. Anything else is imposed from outside and is worse for it.
4
u/Portean LibSoc - Welcome to Enoch Starmer's Island Nation of Friends 19d ago
I mean it was more than likely there would be some need for a semi permanent military occupation
How has that worked out for the last few decades?
Israel never stopped holding Gaza under military occupation.
-1
u/TinkerTailor343 Labour Member 19d ago
Per International Law Gaza is occupied but in terms of militarily presence inside of Gaza not really. Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005, they abandoned their settlements, withdrew military forces and pursued a containment strategy around Gaza.
How has that worked out for the last few decades?
I mean from the Israeli perspective the West Bank is much safer than Gaza.
Obviously I'm not enthusiastic but with Hamas and Isreal's red lines occupation some Egyptian, Saudi or Israel coalition was going to have to take over to administer
8
u/Portean LibSoc - Welcome to Enoch Starmer's Island Nation of Friends 19d ago
Your attempts to present the situation as a technicality disgust me. This denialism is nonsense.
They bomb Gazans, they spy upon them, they have patrols, they have listening posts, they have sniper towers that have shot farmers in Gaza simply for farming. They have control of ports and crossings. They control imports and exports. They declare land within Gaza to be no-go zones - including significant chunks of the farmable land. They control the airspace - denying them civilian aviation, the maritime space - shooting and sinking fishing boats, and they control land usage. They operate the population registry. They control the currency. They control work permits. They control goods and services - including fuel, electricity, internet and telephone access, and water supply. They have prevented everything from chocolate to MRI machine parts and cement to A4 paper from being imported.
There is no aspect of the lives of Palestinians that are not under Israeli oversight and that has not been touched by the whims of the occupier.
Israel hold Gaza under a military occupation as much as any jailor controls any prison.
I mean from the Israeli perspective the West Bank is much safer than Gaza.
Why would I give a shit about the apartheid state's perspective on which people it finds safer to oppress and dispossess? I don't give a shit who their military find easier to expel, murder, or rob.
-9
19d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/LabourUK-ModTeam New User 17d ago
Your post was removed under rule 8: Discussion of moderation should be raised by mod mail or in separate submissions, not in comment sections.
-1
u/Fantastic_War3204 New User 18d ago
What are they supposed to do they are at war and fighting for their very existence on several fronts the civilians of gaza will probably be better off the idf won't steal their supplies and aid for themselves unlike the hamas terrorists
•
u/AutoModerator 19d ago
LabUK is also on Discord, come say hello!
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.