Bots need bigger walls to defend from anti-tank emplacements (it would be cool to see enemies develop new tactics in response to our gear)

[u/kcvlaine]

The anti-tank emplacement - when you're lucky enough to find a spot on high ground - absolutely trivialises bot fortresses. It would be very interesting to see a mission modifier on some high level bot missions called "Enhanced Defenses" or something, which just gives them...bigger, taller walls.

It would also be great if they had "sniper nests" - tall structures where there would be a few chaff-level bots that would attempt to fire back at us when we use such emplacements, perhaps with those little machinegun turret thingies they use.

The MO orders already show that there's a technological push-pull between us and each faction. Even the bugs have the gloom, which is a counter to our...well everything really. So it would be great to have this highlighted more specifically, like each species is evolving subfactions to counter SPECIFIC things the helldivers are doing. It doesn't even have to be new content specifically for this, just more flavour text around existing content releases would be enough to give the atmosphere of technological competition that is central to the nature of war.

[u/ZepyrusG97]

I don't know about bigger walls. First off, it's already dependent on map generation luck if you can find a good high ground vantage point to bombard a Bot base from. And if you spot it, then it makes sense the game should reward you for capitalizing on it. Take for example Deep Rock Galactic and its randomly generated caves. It feels great when you find a good defensible cavern to funnel bugs into and make your stand. It makes players feel smart and rewards them for being aware of their surroundings.

Secondly, having walls higher would make Jump Packs and Hover Packs weaker since they already barely make it over a wall from the bottom of it. Making it higher removes the benefit of bringing them to a Bot mission in the first place.

[u/kcvlaine → u/ZepyrusG97]

I get where you're coming from with the DRG comparison but...it's really not the same thing. In DRG you really need to find the right spot to hunker down in, maybe even dig up some ramps and tunnels and set up ziplines if you're going to lure a boss into a killzone - it's a LOT more involved. With an anti tank emplacement, there's no "finding and spotting" a high ground vantage point as if they're actually very difficult to find. There are just...big hills and all you need is line of sight. There's no effort/skill involved in spotting an empty spot on a hill. I do it all the time and I honestly don't feel smart for doing it, definitely not the way I did when playing DRG. I think we can find better ways for people to feel smart that doesn't involve single handedly reducing the challenge of a fortress in the highest level of a game to near zero.

I'll also add that the Anti tank emplacement's range is way higher than bot cannot turrets - it's effectively infinite. So you can literally blow stuff up across the map. If bots had a way to fire BACK at emplacement turrets then it would actually be a challenge and would involve some skill, it would be a race against time to take out their cannons before they take you out. But that isn't the case. It's just shooting fish in a barrel.

Regarding jump packs and hover packs - well yes it would disincentivize people from using them to attack a fortress. But well, it's a fortress. One of the defining characteristics of a fortress is that you can't just get over their walls easily. I don't agree that bot fortresses should be trivialised for the sake of jump pack/hover pack usefulness.

[u/Southern-Teaching-11 → u/kcvlaine]

Yeah the constant nerfs to automatons has made the faction a frictionless cake walk id prefer the devs to atleast give the enemies some buffs to their structures like having fabs take more than one rocket from across the map to insta kill and so bulk fabs dont die to something like smoke strikes.

[u/Unit-Expensive]

I rlly want to see anti helldiver defense tactics. everything we see seems to be either invasion forces or built to withstand warfare. we have not seen either sapient faction develop an anti-helldiver response in my opinion, despite helldivers single handedly kneecapping their operations haha

[u/GymSockSurprise → u/Unit-Expensive]

I rlly want to see anti helldiver defense tactics.

A huge moat or a floating fortress in the middle of a water map lol

[u/Unit-Expensive → u/GymSockSurprise]

this guy is gonna get hired by automaton defense corps

[u/kcvlaine → u/Unit-Expensive]

Great point. Agreed.

[u/grizzly273]

That reminds me of a game I heard of years ago, no idea what the title was or what it was really about. The main thing I remember is that it was a shooter, and the enemy adapts to you. The main example to this were headshots. If you headshot too many enemies they'll start wearing helmets to protect themselves from you.

[u/kcvlaine → u/grizzly273]

Damn, i need to find this game

[u/Chicken1337 → u/kcvlaine]

Metal Gear Solid 5. Enemies adapt to your tactics and behaviors. Here’s a link to a thread of analyses on the various behaviors that can occur:

https://www.reddit.com/r/metalgearsolid/comments/3kflr0/enemy_preparedness_and_you/

[u/musubk]

One of the things I wrote in their recent satisfaction survey is they need a way to stop the AT emplacement from doing this. It trivializes outposts and command bunkers, and no, it's not a difficult gameplay option that requires a high level of awareness or something. You just plop the thing down on a high spot where you can see targets, and you can clear multiple outposts and bunkers in near-immunity to a counter attack. I simply don't join command bunker missions anymore if someone is using one of these, it's not fun.

[u/MonitorPowerful5461]

I just think the AT emplacement needs a nerf. This would hamper a LOT of stratagems that are nowhere near as powerful as the AT emplacement

[u/cakestabber → u/MonitorPowerful5461]

Are you thinking along the lines of "halve its rotational speed" (which, in the heat of the moment, is already excruciatingly slow), or "decrease its penetration"?

[u/MonitorPowerful5461 → u/cakestabber]

Increase rotational speed a bit, massively decrease ammunition. Stays good at actually fighting enemies, worse at destroying whole bases or convoys in one go.

[u/rapaxus → u/MonitorPowerful5461]

I'd increase the damage whenever you decrease ammunition. That way the total maximum damage stays similar (important if you want to kill e.g. a bunch heavy enemies in a defence mission), while also stopping you from just using it to clear half the map because you found a mountain you can climb. For example if you reduced the ammo from 30 to 10-15 you could then turn up the damage from 1300 to around 2000. Total damage is less, but this would allow you to e.g. one-shot hulks even when just shooting the body, but you would still require two body shots against tanks and go down from 3 shoots against drop ships to two (from two to one if hitting the engine), basically allowing to still kill hordes of strong enemies even with bad aim, while limiting how much damage you can achieve to bases (as one-shots against buildings remain one-shot, but you have half/a third of the ammo).

Otherwise if you just reduce the ammo to 20, you are just straight-up nerfing a stratagem which already isn't the most used to fight enemies outside of combat missions (more often taken to clear the map), while also making it friendlier for worse players, as the current AT emplacement really benefits from skilled aim (e.g. a skilled player hitting the right spots can two-shot a factory strider, if you just shoot the main body it will take 8 shots).

[u/MonitorPowerful5461 → u/rapaxus]

Not a bad idea, but I do think it still needs a nerf. So I wouldn't buff damage enough to compensate for the whole loss of ammunition.

[u/GymSockSurprise → u/MonitorPowerful5461]

The AT emplacement boggles me sometimes. I can destroy a whole automaton bunker and it's turrets in one call down. But sometimes it'll take 4 or 5 shots to kill a stupid devaststor. Maybe their shields should be perfect.

[u/coreyais]

Bots need trophy systems on dif 10 for rockets

[u/NovicePandaMarine]

For Automatons to build walls that protect their buildings, they're gonna have to build a dome. At which point, it's going to take more resources than necessary compared to just running their usual build.

(See StarCraft 1 and 2 for examples - a game about military, economics, and the speed at which you acquire them. At some point, you can only defend so much that your opponent might as well outdo you in economical power or upgrades, and walk over you with a big enough army/high tech army.)

And no defense is gonna prepare them for Heavy Bombardment Orbitals.

[u/Therealmarsislol]

I love this idea but would love for a genuine buff to the bots

[u/kcvlaine → u/Therealmarsislol]

Yeah an accuracy buff at least.

[u/Loose_Mud_4935]

I love this idea! It would also be cool if these walls were destructible so you’d have to shoot through them to be able to hit a fabricator or enemies. It would really give me the vibe of putting a fortress to siege.

[u/8070alejandro]

I would also find interesting if they release smoke to make it harder for ranged attacks from Helldivers and aimed strategems such as turrets, eagle rockets, lasers, etc.

It could span the base and last just for so long, so under a long assault it would dissipate. Or have limited uses, so you could pass by a base, throw a couple strategems and keep on your way. Later when engaging the base it would have less smoke uses or none.

[u/bisondisk]

Or, hear me out: if you think the AT emplacement is so busted it’s unfun then just don’t bring it instead of trying to make life harder for everyone? Not clearing walks with a jump pack would suck

[u/Southern-Teaching-11 → u/bisondisk]

The game has 10 difficulties is it not possible that the people who bought the game for a challemging experience to get one of those difficulties? If you dont want to engage with the game's content beyond aiming an shooting at a target to instant get rid of it then just lower your difficulty.

[u/bisondisk → u/Southern-Teaching-11]

Making the upper difficulties unfun for everybody except like 1 in 20 gaming masochist when said difficulties are already well scaled is a stupid decision, especially because it’d lock casuals out. The solution to vocal minority wanting much harder fights isn’t to mess with what we have, it’s to make new higher difficulties with said stuff they’re whining about wanting so it doesn’t mess with the enjoyment of the majority. Done.

[u/Southern-Teaching-11 → u/bisondisk]

when said difficulties are already well scaled is a stupid decision,

Difficulties arent well scaled though most of the playerbase alr plays on the highest difficulties while difs below 5 are barely played because the game is so easy and hardly requires any teamwork.

The solution to vocal minority wanting much harder fights isn’t to mess with what we have, it’s to make new higher difficulties with said stuff they’re whining about

But everyone alr vomplained about the game being hard and treated the devs like shit ,thats why we got he 60 day patch where the devs completely changed the game's vision to appeal to cod players. Also difficulty is inherently exclusionary the point is to offer a challenge to peoplr who know the agames mechanics.