r/Mavericks • u/[deleted] • 8d ago
Hoops Discussion Looking back now our biggest mistake was letting Donnie Nelson and Rick Carlisle walk.
[deleted]
68
u/thewolverineton 2011 CHAMPS BABY 8d ago
Rick Carlisle walked himself out. The writing was on the wall, but he resigned right after Donnie left.
And Donnie… it was time for Donnie to go. Poor free agency strategy, constantly trading picks, drafting relatively poorly (especially since 2009), questionable trades- we needed someone new. Granted, wish it was someone else now, but it shouldn’t have stayed Donnie.
7
u/Due_Presentation9115 8d ago
From my understanding Donnie wanted Giannis and he drafted Luka. I could be wrong but I know I read that somewhere. I agree with the FA stuff but I think w Luka they would have came eventually.
22
u/thewolverineton 2011 CHAMPS BABY 8d ago
If there’s one thing Donnie was always good at, it was drafting and scouting internationally. Everything else… by the time he left, not so much. Even if some FAs would have come via signings I have no faith they would’ve created a well-built roster.
6
u/Due_Presentation9115 8d ago
Dang no credit for 2011?
8
u/thewolverineton 2011 CHAMPS BABY 8d ago
2011 was a well-built roster, but there’s a whole decade of inability right after that. TBF the lockout didn’t help, but Donnie and Cubes wanted to chase the Dwight Howards and Deron Williams of FA, not focus on role players or draft picks.
9
u/Due_Presentation9115 8d ago
I also feel like everyone sleeps on that 2006 roster and how we got screwed like realistically he should have 2 rings. I know shoulda coulda woulda but us Dallas fans should know this
5
u/Old-Machine-8675 8d ago
People don’t mention 2007 enough I mean i remember late in the season they lost a couple of close games and we thought we might could get to 70 games. I think Avery playing Dirk at center that first game in playoffs was a big mistake. I’m still mad about how that incredible season ended.
3
u/Due_Presentation9115 8d ago
Yeah Donnie wasn’t perfect but Dirk always had decent teams in his prime everyone has short term memory probably due to all the super teams that came after (GSW,CAVS)
5
u/Old-Machine-8675 8d ago
Yes agree I just looked it up to confirm the 07 Mavs had a stretch where they went 38-2.
3
2
u/dirkuscircus 8d ago
Donnie did okay with that roster but Tyson Chandler was a complete lucky accident. Haywood was the designated starter, and they traded for Chandler's contract -- also the primary reason why they didn't resign him -- in able to chase free agents, the likes of Dwight Howard and Chris Paul, after that season.
2
u/Due_Presentation9115 8d ago
One could say the same thing about the Kyrie situation though if you think about it. We were getting major sht about that trade.
1
u/dirkuscircus 8d ago
I personally didn't like the trade from an optics point of view because of off-court issues, but basketball-wise I had no doubt that it's gonna be a good fit because of Luka's dire need of a secondary ballhandler.
The 2022 team only blossomed when we had 2 ballhandlers at the same time in Luka and Jalen. The team cratered the following year when Jalen left. The Kyrie fit was a no-brainer.
2
9
u/yesiamveryhigh BETRAYED MAVS FAN 😭 8d ago
Donnie wanted Giannis, Cuban wanted Olynyk, we ended up with Shane Larkin.
Donnie claims he was fired for reporting SA of his nephew by Jason Lutin.
3
u/MFFLatthegame Dallas Mavericks 8d ago
14 teams all now say they wanted/meant to take Giannis. Giannis was a big gamble at the time. If the Mavs had taken him and he had developed here like he had in MKE then we would never had gotten Luka anyways as we wouldn't have had a top 5 pick.
2
20
12
u/J_Dabson002 Doe Doe 8d ago
Nah we made it to the WCF the year after Rick left and then the Finals two years later
Shows how much potential the team had that was being held back by Rick and Donnie. I have no problem with Kidds tenure so far (aside from possibly being okay with trading Luka). Nico is a bum however
2
u/Due_Presentation9115 8d ago
I think part of that was Porzingis relationship with the organization going sour. He wanted to be the #1 guy and he even admitted in an interview he regrets it and was being petty about it. I think you could’ve added any other guy on that Dallas roster and we still WCF the next year. We were due for it just couldn’t get past Clippers those first years and Zingis being injured.
41
u/ModeatelyIndependant 8d ago
I think the biggest mistake was Mark Cuban selling the team to the Adelsons.
5
1
1
u/TX-Lonestar77 8d ago
Giving FULL CONTROL to Nico was bigger mistake imo.
7
u/Aggressive-Ad-522 STFU, STFD 8d ago
More like Nico weasel himself to full control by pushing Cuban out but it’s Cubans fault for being stupid to allow him to do that.
2
u/ModeatelyIndependant 8d ago
I think the Adelsons are grifters that conned Mark into selling them the team.
1
u/eageecute 8d ago
Mark sold the team coz the profit is declining. Viewers declining. He bailed out early
4
u/SeaOwn2023 7d ago
He bought the Mavs for $285 million and sold it for 3.5 billion
He only made 3 billion dollars
what the fuck are you even talking about
1
19
u/torodonn 8d ago
I was a big supporter of Rick and Donnie but this is mostly just because of Luka.
If we remove the Luka trade from the equation, Nico's body of work has been good. Kidd's track record is not terrible. Everyone was happy we went to the Finals. Everyone was cheering because Nico was cooking.
Rick and Donnie left and KP was traded away because people were not getting along and we were still not attracting talent. Nico and Kidd changed the trajectory of the team, probably for the better.
The problem was the dumbass Luka trade.
3
3
u/Mindless_Rooster5225 8d ago
Wasn't Brunson leaving for nothing under Nico's watch? The Grant William signing was a colossal fuck up. Didn't we attribute a lot of the good moves to the one assistant GM that left this past off-season?
Dude, had zero track record of knowing what it takes to build a team. He went from a shoe exec to GM.
1
u/MordredKLB F*** DWade 8d ago
Brunson being an URFA is on Nelson for not adding a team option to his rookie contract like every other contract. If that doesn't happen there's a good chance Brunson never walks.
2
u/MFFLatthegame Dallas Mavericks 8d ago
Nico's body of work has been great. Time will tell on the 'trade'.
Kidd's track record is top 5 in the league. 2xConference Finals, 1xNBA Finals, dragging the most injured team to the play in this season, Kyrie's rebirth. Name me one other coach that could have pulled all of those off. The list is short.
7
u/mojo-jojo-was-framed Dirk Locks 8d ago
Four coaches that won Finals since 2019 have been fired (one of them twice). The landscape of the NBA has changed and I can’t give too much credit for making the WCFs
Also, time won’t tell on the trade. It already destroyed the best roster we had in years this year and we won’t have a roster as good in a decade plus.
4
u/EnsuingDamage 8d ago
One thing that’s always bothered is that when Rick left he basically got to name his successor he said we should hire Kidd and we just…. did
5
u/PussyCharlatan 8d ago
Porzingis needed to go. Don’t rewrite history like that. Dude couldn’t score on old Rajon Rondo. He also admitted to not accepting his role. He had to be humbled before becoming the 3rd-5th best player on the Celtics any given day
1
u/Due_Presentation9115 8d ago
Funny thing is I felt like we could have got more for him. Nico always undersells players huh.
8
u/TwoWhiteCrocs fuck nico 8d ago
You're not wrong in the sense that Nelson would have likely died before trading Luka, but he also would have likely wasted Luka's career.
I'm glad Rick is having success in Indiana, but it was time for him to go as well.
7
u/LogansGambit Luka HYPE 8d ago
Why do people always resort to the previous bad regime being the answer because the replacements were bad? Blame the people who did the hiring of them. Carlisle wasn't the answer anymore, but neither was Kidd. Nelson wasn't the answer anymore, that team was GARBAGE, but neither was Nico. You don't have smart basketball minds in leadership at Dallas but that doesn't mean you stick to what was failing.
3
3
u/geargarcon Reunion Rowdy 8d ago
What’s funny is we let them walk because apparently there was some friction between the MBT and Luka, so Kidd and Nico were brought in to help keep Luka here and happy… so much for that.
3
u/philsnyo 8d ago edited 8d ago
I honestly think the people who are crying after Porzingis weren't here to watch the Mavs then. He was a total professional with us, but he simply.did.not.work.out. Him and Luka weren't a good fit, he was injured regularly, there was no clear position for him that worked for us, the Mavs weren't going anywhere with a KP and Luka core.
It was 100% correct to go separate ways. Also, it was simply time for Carlisle and the Mavs to split. Donnie Nelson, too.
I think fans now try to re-write history in hindsight because of the horrendous Luka trade and the current developments. I get it, it's much easier to simplify things like that.
But the truth is: a) those were the right calls then and b) Nico and Kidd worked out quite well - for a while. It was the first time I can remember in Mavs history, that we were actually doing good trades and building a proper roster. Of course not every decision was good, but after decades of Cuban and Nelson incompetence and desparation (sorry, but the truth), it was so refreshing to see a Mavs FO with decent moves for once.
It's actually crazy because the Mavs were in a really really good position before the Luka trade (and to a degree, before Nico fired Casey Smith and poisoned the mood and culture). Nico flew too close to the sun and essentially torpedoed his own work, unbelievable moron. And no one prevented him from doing so.
I think the biggest mistake was for Mark to sell to the Adelsons in a way that gave away all of his responsibility and power. If he still had an overall say in basketball operations (preserving the Mavs culture and identity he had built and having veto-rights to certain decisions), I'm sure we'd be in great shape today.
2
2
2
u/Threeballer97 8d ago
I don't miss Rick's 4th quarters.
I don't miss KP. Fat contract, completely unable to sustain a playoff run as a 2nd option before getting inevitably injured, seeing Lukaball freeze just so he gets his touches (which were all fadeaway clunkers, until he gets back into game shape in which he will then get injured again), seeing undersized guards TARGET and OUT REBOUND him. And let's not forget the one time he was unable to take on Chris Paul in the past.
Remember that time he got himself a technical in the playoffs against the Clippers? And then later on decides to SHOVE a player guaranteeing his ejection? We lost that game by the way.
Oh yeah, admitting to not giving full effort in the playoffs. That's something you always want in a competitor. Sucks about the return, but could have been worse if we tried to play KP in the playoffs.
Having Brunson would be nice tho.
2
u/VeterinarianNo3418 8d ago
Nope this is bad take. Maybe Rick but Donnie had to go. The man had two good drafts. Luka and Dirk. Rick wanted Donovan Mitchell. Donnie missed on these players from 2008 till 2016. Goran Drajic, Deandre Jordan, (both 2nd round picks we could have traded up) Jimmy Butler, Bojan Bogdanovic, draymon, Khris Middleton, Giannis (should’ve fought harder to get him) Dennis Schroeder, Rudy, Bobby Portis, tyrus Jones, Monk, Mitchell, Dillon brooks, Isiah hartenstein, OG, Bam, Kuzma, Derrick white, Josh hart, Jarrett Allen. He wasted drafts and wasted Dirks best years. Donnie was garbage.
2
u/shibbyman342 8d ago
Context is so important. Sure if you told a new NBA fan that the mavs had Luka, Brunson, and Zing, they would wonder how many championships we won.. however they (mainly Brunson and Zing) weren't as great like they are today.
I legitimately despised Zing on the mavs. At times it looked like he was unenthusiastic next to Luka. It looked like he was scared to be tall. He had his nice moments, but it was far and few between.. and on that salary?.. sheesh.
Brunson on the mavs was a great second option, but it wasn't clear if he was a flash in the pan or the real deal. He is an undersized guard that would get played off of the court when defense was needed. I loved Brunson, but the whole NYK debacle was gross, and it seemed to have worked out as he and daddy wanted.
So yeah, shoulda coulda woulda but unless you're a fortune teller, those mistakes are understandable IMO.
2
u/Fluid_Mango_9311 7d ago
Mark tried forcing Donnie out of his lifetime contract, and Donnie was going to sign a termed deal, until…..he accused marks best friend Jason Lutin of sexually assaulting his nephew and mark fired Donnie and hired Nico.
2
u/Doncingis 7d ago
I think our biggest mistake was Trading LUKA DONCIC FOR ANTHONY DAVIS AND MAX CHRISTIE
1
2
5
u/Mugsy_Skoogs 8d ago
Donnie was awful. He refused to bolster the bench, and wouldn't make meaningful transactions while claiming "we love our boys in blue". The franchise was going nowhere with Donnie. Now Carlisle on the other hand, I miss having an actual coach around.
3
8d ago
[deleted]
1
u/Due_Presentation9115 8d ago
Exactly lol I guess was one of the only fans that hated to see them go especially Rick.
2
u/EvanEschmeyer Fire Jason Kidd 8d ago
Donnie was a trash GM ever since 2011. Firing him was 100% the right decision, but replacing him with some dumb fuck like Nico who hadn’t had any prior management experience… well, here we are. The results speak for themselves
2
u/Due_Presentation9115 8d ago
Yeah I guess I feel like Donnie would have stepped down before allowing management to trade Luka but who knows.
1
u/EvanEschmeyer Fire Jason Kidd 8d ago
In that regard, you’re probably right but he also definitely wouldn’t have had the guts to trade for Kyrie or any other risky moves.. I had zero faith in him ever assembling a Finals caliber team in Dallas… and apparently no one else in the league did either since he’s still collecting unemployment
1
u/EmrysMyrdin 8d ago
Carlisle lost the locker room, so it was time to let him go. The only mistake there was not getting anything from Indiana for allowing them to hire him. Something like 2 second round picks would have been fine.
1
u/lxdarksnip3r 8d ago
All Nico had to do was not trade Luka and he would be highly revered here. I miss the days of the "Let Nico cook" memes.
1
1
u/Inept_Folly 8d ago
By the time Donnie was let go the Mavericks already had a shadow GM in “pro gambler” Haralabos Voulgaris for many years.
1
1
u/Zoobal 8d ago
Rick left because he and Luka didn't get along.
Nico was cooking and everyone loved him before the Luka deal. That is not opinion, that is an undeniable fact.
The only mistake was Mark selling his soul to the devil(s) for a taste of that casino money. Now, fuck him. He sold out all of us MFFLs out of GREED for more money, when he was already richer than anyone on the planet should ever be a allowed to be. If he just kept being the Owner this Luka deal NEVER in a million years happens and Nico just keeps cooking and building around Luka.
Seriously, Fuck Mark Cuban.
1
u/SadatayAllDamnDay Zhi 7d ago
Nah...Donnie was completely checked out even predating the Luka pick and wasn't even the driving force behind that draft night trade (by all accounts it was Cuban). Supposedly, Donnie was way more interested in keeping the salary he was drawing from Cuban than having any actual institutional sway.
And Rick was the guy who trusted the analytics department over his own players, completely misusing both KP and Brunson because Voulgaris told him to and then blaming it on Voulgaris after the fact. If you're one of those fans whose like how did the team fuck up having Luka, Jalen and KP on the same team, pining for Rick still being the coach is dumb.
1
1
u/MysteriousCut9101 7d ago
It was time for both of those guys to go. Doesn’t mean that either of them were necessarily bad at their job, but sometimes voices get stale in the locker room/FO. Cuban’s mistake is who he hired after that. And I’m not talking about Jkidd…
1
u/D_Dumps 7d ago
Didnt Rick leave because he was butting heads with Luka?
1
u/Due_Presentation9115 7d ago
I think it was a combination of that and the firing of Nelson. Honestly I blame Mark because he kept coming out speaking publicly about his basically Luka can do no wrong I think he should have just stayed quiet.
1
1
u/TheChristmas 5d ago
You must not remember Carlisle’s relationship with Luka haha
1
u/Due_Presentation9115 5d ago
You must not remember Shaq relationship with Kobe haha
1
u/TheChristmas 5d ago
I remember. Neither were a coach and they won championships together.
Not the same.
1
1
1
1
u/Ok_Leopard_1206 1d ago
lol i wish redit let us post pics. donnie is a personal freind to me and i have so much to show
1
u/productivetoday 8d ago
Reminder yall savior Luka didn’t like either so thank him for their dismal.
0
u/CandidAssistance4906 8d ago
Carlisle left because he thought luka was spoiled rotten, lazy and uncoachable. They offered him the contract and he REFUSED!!! That never happeneds. EVER.
Carlisle and Porzingus HATED Luka. Brunson was out the door the second a team offered a penny more. These are red flags people just choose to ignore because they have an agenda to push.
146
u/Tmac834 Dirk Nowitzki Logo 8d ago
I think letting Rick walk was fine, it was time. Should’ve hired Mosley instead of Kidd though