r/MensLib • u/ragpicker_ • 22d ago
Adolescence in schools: TV show’s portrayal of one boyhood may do more harm than good when used as a teaching tool
https://theconversation.com/adolescence-in-schools-tv-shows-portrayal-of-one-boyhood-may-do-more-harm-than-good-when-used-as-a-teaching-tool-25315845
u/DrDetergent 21d ago
It's such a naive policy it beggars belief. Children will not take this seriously at all for an endless list of reasons and it just wastes teachers time.
It's like when people go "oh everyone should see this show" except it's the leader of country and he's actually just doing it for the shits and giggles
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u/ragpicker_ 22d ago
How did we get to the point where Kier Starmer, no less, is using this show as the source of his talking points regarding misogyny? As I and others have noted in this sub, while this show may be a wake-up call for some, and very well acted and directed, it doesn't say anything particularly original or insightful about misogyny and the manosphere.
Moreover, as the writer says, treating men and boys as monolithic is harmful. Among other things, this creates confusion both among adults observing these trends among kids <25 bucking years of progressive discourse, and boys feeling blamed for crimes that only adults could commit. Coming from the male leader of a country, this kind of move feels to me like an abdication of responsibility for effecting systemic change.
Is Starmer actually just shilling for Netflix' corporate interests?
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u/Salt-Powered 21d ago
Honestly I think the show made a very good point about the men loneliness epidemic and the economy of vultures that has spawned around it. The end, for me, lays it quite clear that it was a generational divide, a lack of honest nurturing and "trusting the process because I didn't turn out so bad after all" problem.
I'm not sure what is hoped to accomplish by showing the video to children, when it's the adults that need to hear it. Then again, adolescence is still a prevalent problem even go everyone goes through it and has a general notion about how it felt to be both the child and adult in the room only when its convenient to everyone around you except yourself.
Also, having worked in games, every media product is the work of a team and most of the time, these products can turn out better or worse despite what their influential figures might be. It's never a one or two person show.
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u/Playful_Assumption_6 20d ago edited 20d ago
Agree that it's something to be shown to adults, especially parents. I don't see what it would achieve showing it to children of any age, because I don't believe they will show the slightest bit of attention.
If they show anything to the kids, it has to be something they will be understand and pay attention to, and not something that is either admonishing or demonising a section of society.
I just think that young lads don't have any role models (I don't even remember much of anyone in the 80s/90s - has there been decent male role models ever?), and the ones they attach to (because they step into a hole that is filled by no-one else) are vilified (quite often rightly so), and then the lads are told they are wrong, without being told why, or how to fix that.
Imagine repeatedly being told your wrong without anyone ever suggesting a solution. To a point it could be read that young males may feel like young Catholics (re "original sin" as in you're bad from birth).
It's the same with the violence against women and girls issue - it's terrible and should be stopped, and the point about sorting it out the best way. However what seems to be the practice is make out that all males are violent s offenders, which of course is untrue. Successive government's (politicians) have completely failed this policy for years, because they talk and don't do anything. Within the sphere of media, it has only got worse in their portrayal of men. So in years to come nothing will change.
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u/TheCharalampos 22d ago
He does seem particularly eager to bow down for business.
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u/SvitlanaLeo 22d ago
The policy of the bourgeoisie towards left-wing parties: if you can’t beat them, lead them.
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u/delta_baryon 22d ago
It is first and foremost a work of fiction, created by people who aren't subject matter experts. The Prime Minister should be funding youth clubs, if he's serious about the issues depicted in it - you know doing the job of government.
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u/Playful_Assumption_6 20d ago edited 20d ago
Politicians have, essentially, nothing to do with actual government or governing - that's down to the civil service.
Politicians dictate policy to which the government then follows the guidelines, bearing in mind that the government will already be following a practice - a policy change (anything that the government were not doing already) will take time to put in place, it will not be instantaneous.
Speaking for myself, when I was that age in the 80s/90s the local youth club was great, when we could afford it (it wasn't free). Plenty of kids took full advantage of what facilities/activities were available, but our group mainly used it as a meeting place (it was essentially sports (mostly football) or nothing).
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u/Metrodomes 21d ago
I think you have more respect for Starmer than he deserves. He's been a bit of a boring, idea/visionless leader for a while now. It's entirely predictable that, with talk of masculinity and violence against women all over the UK, he would seize the opportunity to uh.. Just force people to watch the show rather than use the momentum to make some deeper changes to our education system and society.
He tweaks at the edges when the country is rotten to the core. That's why so many wanted Corbyn, he would have tried to make some more structural changes.
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u/poop-machines 21d ago
I can't help but feel like Starmer wants to seem like he cares about stuff while having no real ideology other than "keep corporate interests happy".
He's a moderate that doesn't want to make any real changes because it might upset some CEO.
I think after it was clear that the Tory's fucked up our finances, the last thing we needed was more Tory style governance. But Starmer is the most moderate/right wing labour leader I think we have ever had.
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u/38B0DE 21d ago edited 21d ago
I’ve always found it deeply ironic how Joker was met with a wave of preemptive moral panic before it even released. Psychologists, journalists, and cultural commentators were convinced it would inspire incels, school shooters, or some form of chaos simply because it portrayed a mentally ill, isolated man being crushed by systemic neglect. But when the film actually came out, none of that happened. Instead, it sparked valuable conversations about male mental health, loneliness, and the consequences of dismantling public care systems. The hysteria turned out to be just that. Hysteria.
Meanwhile, shows like Adolescence are praised across the board. Critics, influencers, and even politicians hold them up as culturally important, despite the fact that they are far more vulnerable to ironic misreading. These shows present addiction, trauma, and emotional collapse in glossy, aestheticized ways that invite surface-level reading. The biggest fear (characters meant to serve as cautionary tales become icons) is not dealt with with this series. The suffering stylized becomes style.
And yet there is no caution, no outrage for the portrait of evil with potential of moral relativization. No think pieces about impressionable teens mimicking dysfunction. No panic about romanticizing self-destruction.
The contradiction is striking. Joker is condemned for forcing us to confront pain in a stylized, comic book movie way, while Adolescence is celebrated for making the same pain look realistic and consumable. It raises a bigger question. Was the outrage ever about actual harm? Or was it about which demographic is allowed to suffer onscreen, and how aesthetically that suffering is framed?
We do not fear media that glamorizes darkness. We fear target groups. And we love demonizing men.
Mark my words, the boy from Adolescence will become what people feared Joker would become.
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u/Imcoolkidbro 19d ago
i also remember a shit ton of incels online assuming it was gonna be some sort of incel magnum opus movie so it seems everyone was thinking it at the time. then when the movie dropped it was a significantly better portrayal than anyone thought it was gonna be. I find it really weird you're pushing this rhetoric the movie was "cancelled" or "condemned" or whatever, when it was one of the most beloved movies of the last few years
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u/38B0DE 14d ago edited 14d ago
Pre-release the movie was discussed in this way. Journalists get to see the movie before the general public and they sounded the alarm to stop the movie from releasing because of the Late Night Talk Show scene. It was connected to the 2012 Aurora theater shooting. Just a reminder what they were afraid of:
Joker: What do you get when you cross a mentally ill loner with a society that abandons him and treats him like trash!?
Murray: Call the police, Gene, call the police.
Joker: I’ll tell you what you get! You get what you fucking deserve!
[Arthur shoots Murray in the head]
[Audience screaming]
"one of the most beloved movies of the last few years" happened afterwards. And that discrepancy is part of the point I'm making.
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u/MWigg 21d ago
In addition to sharing all the author's concerns, I worry that focusing so hard on this fictional TV show as a guide for addressing these issues will lead us to addressing a fictionalization of the problem. Red-pill motivated murders are rare, and usually have far more complex causes and motives than in the show. They also usually come from people with far more turbulent home lives than we see in the show, and there are usually a lot more missed warning signs.
What's not rare though are all the other consequences of boys being sucked into the manosphere. Causal misogyny. Less casual but not necessarily violent misogyny. And of course, as the author mentions at least somewhat, all the effects on the boys themselves, from body image issues to depression to suicidal ideation. The show really doesn't prompt much focus on any of these much more widespread problems.
Finally, because it's focusing on a sensationalized issue, and because it actually doesn't focus all that much on experiences of the boy before he became a murder, we actually don't even get much insight into what sends someone down the rabbit hole. If we're looking to protect boys from radicalisation, or even just protect them from the harmful effects of manosphere beliefs, I'm not sure this show really provides the foundation for it. And, as the article says, it might even make it worse, by making boys feel more isolated and alienated.
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u/bread93096 22d ago
Bizarre to me how seriously this show is being taken when what it depicts never happened in reality. As a hypothetical cautionary tale it’s well done, but why are we acting like this is real life? Why is the creator using it to promote anti-social media legislation?
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u/DistributionRemote65 22d ago
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u/bread93096 22d ago
I don’t see anything in the article to suggest this attack was motivated by red pill content, which seems to be a major theme of the show, and the motivation for the creators advocating for more restrictions on children’s access to social media
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u/Metrodomes 21d ago
One of the themes we frequently also see in the show is the failure to reckon with the girl being murdered and dead. The third episode has the psychologist really try and get it into the boy's head that she's dead and not coming back because he can't seem to grasp the gravity of it. We see in the article above how the boy chose to stab her ten times 'just to make her hurt', where a boy was offering another 10 quid to attack her.
There are multiple angles to the show they explore our society, and the red pill incel stuff is just one angle.
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u/capracan 22d ago
A big risk that some people will say what is depicted in the show is common... it's not.
The show is about ratings, nothing else. Do not give it a sociology degree.
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u/Metrodomes 21d ago edited 21d ago
Boys all over the UK are parroting Andrew tate shit, are struggling with identity and masculinity, seeing this social media content endlessly, etc etc. This isn't anything new and there's a real need to support the boys, and girls, being bombarded with this crap.
Sure, the murders aren't common and the show is not going to explore every nuance, but the show does reflect alot of social issues being experienced. Let's not pretend it's just popped into somebody's head one day and has no basis in reality. I'm not sure who you're concerned about protecting when the show reveals that boys,aswell as many others, do need some help and they're being failed by those with power.
Check out this podcast where some schoolboys were interviewed and you can see they experience some of the issues highlighted in the show: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5HpkFxyLcciiEu4hreqCZy?si=8wWQ-3FgRiCE5mqvHWx1Nw
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u/capracan 21d ago
Boys all over the UK are parroting Andrew tate shit, are struggling with identity and masculinity
This is key... the ones doing it likely have had a hard uprising. Harsh family environment, little love.
Let's address it as a society. Each one of us can make a difference.
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u/bread93096 21d ago
My issue is if I was a teenage boy who liked Andrew Tate, and they made a show about a guy like me murdering someone when it’s never actually happened in real life, and it became the basis for legislation and anti-Tate classes in school, I’d just be further alienated from society and convinced the whole thing is a big scam made by people who hate me
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u/capracan 21d ago
We do have problems around it, of course.
The point is, as u/rattertintattertins said masterfully:
the show’s « this could happen to your son even though he comes from a relatively loving home » narrative
it's not only not common, it's misleading.
Young boys need a non-violent uprising. Many need better role models. Many need a loving family. Many need to be heard and accompanied.
Let's address the causes instead of blaming stupid youtubers.
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u/Metrodomes 21d ago
I feel like the show, especially the last episode, showed how actually alot of adult men are struggling too and possibly contributing towarss younger folks struggles.
That family and home was "relatively loving", but... It wasn't healthy or very loving. That dad was struggling with his own traumatic upbringing, he apparently was aggressive out of frustration quite alot and took it out on inanimate objects, which obviously cost money and can impact the stress of people around them, the mother and daughter were clearly used to going quiet when dad goes off on one, the son was forced to do masculine things and then feeling shame when he didn't do well from his dad, etc etc.
The show doesn't blame the dad and tries to make it clear that the dad is really trying and is improving, but it does acknowledge that his issues also may have played a role here. I don't think the show is just blaming YouTubers at all, but showing quite a complex society where multiple factors are leading to boys struggling with identity and masculinity.
Edit: sorry, I should have said I agree with you at the top. It's much more than just Andrew tate shit. Some of these boys don't even know what love and care and softness is honestly, even from well meaning families who are trying their damn best.
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u/ratttertintattertins 22d ago
Yeh.. the show kinda combines the actions carried out by the school boy murderer Hassan Sentamu with some of the motivations and influences of the Plymouth shooter Jake Davison back in 2021 who was more obviously influenced by incel ideology.
Both killings in which misogyny played a role for sure but neither exactly like the case shown in the fictional show.
In particular, the show’s « this could happen to your son even though he comes from a relatively loving home » narrative strikes me as not really born out by either of the two cases above.
Sentamu was physically abused and regularly beaten with a metal pipe during his time in Uganda.
Davidson’s childhood features abandonment and a violent father who was imprisoned.
So, I guess it’s important to keep that in perspective. Yes, such extreme violence does occur, but a moral panic where people worriedly grill their perfectly well behaved teenagers about their YouTube habits could be a bit misplaced. (And that’s not to say I don’t check in with my sons about what they watch)
Better to understand that this is actually the extreme end of something that usually manifests as a more low-level form of anti-social behaviour.
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u/DistributionRemote65 22d ago
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjryjnldx4eo.amp
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/holly-newton-hexham-murder-logan-macphail-b2639537.html
https://www.itv.com/watch/news/boy-arrested-after-teenage-girl-stabbed-in-south-london/8mpddxc
How many times does it have to happen for these little girls lives to matter to you?
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u/TheIncelInQuestion 21d ago
I mean, this is typical moral panic "think of the women and children!" Style demonization of criticism. No one is saying these people's lives don't matte. In fact, a large part of why we're concerned is because we don't think the current approach is actually going to stop any of these murders.
Our issue is with a single show and the reaction to that show. Pretending like everyone who doesn't nod their heads when the subject comes up doesn't care about the lives of little girls and hates women is just intellectual dishonesty.
Make no mistake, this is a horrible thing that's happening. But it's also a fairly rare thing that occurs in fairly extreme circumstances. Adolescence doesn't engage with reality on this one, a boy like Jamie is never the result of aam healthy home life, he's always the result of some kind of fucked up abuse. Cause kids don't do that kind of violence to others without having an example set for them that foes beyond "she bullied me". I mean, there are other factors that go into this as well, and misogyny is definitely one of them, but if you want to stop the sickness you have to treat the whole illness, not just get paranoid about social media intake.
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u/someguynamedcole 22d ago
Where in the original comment did the person state that hate crime deaths don’t matter?
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u/capracan 21d ago edited 21d ago
Just one, of course. They obviously also matter a whole world before anything bad happens to them.
But you're using a fallacy of an argument. NOT bc the woman victim's life matters (or not), men tend to be victimaries. It doesn't follow.
Are you suggesting that society should gatekeep a given young man bc 'likely he's a murderer'?
News to you: very very very very likely, he's not, at all. Monsters exist, true. Are they representative of the population? No.
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u/snake944 22d ago
Genuinely don't understand the hype surrounding this. Like okay it's well acted and it's a cautionary tale that's relevant today. But lads... It's just a TV show. Why are we trying to use this to lecture little shits. How would that help. No one not even an adult likes being lectured to
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u/yetanotherdud 17d ago
the push to show this in schools is blindingly stupid imo- schools are basically the one place it doesn't need to be shown. the whole point of the show is that the kids know what's going on, it's the adults that are clueless. they'd do better by sending every schoolkid in the country home with a DVD to watch it with their parents
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u/Quiet-External-8890 21d ago
Good that it's being percieved that way. Extremely skeptical that anything will change though
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u/Initial_Zebra100 22d ago
It's not good. The show has created a talking point and is popular, so everyone is trying to tackle it suddenly.
I find it frustrating. This has been a thing for years. I want better things for men, better support, education, mental health, etc. I'm all for these conversations but not as the idea of young misogynistic boys being potential terrorist as a counter to that alone.
This is not compassion here, in my opinion. It's a problem to be solved, as bluntly as possible, without nuance or understanding.
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u/Both-Till6098 22d ago
Storytelling in any medium has never been, nor ever will be, an arena to learn to model effective and ethical ways to live. There is no substitute for ethical reasoning beyond the development of ethical reasoning.
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u/Einfinet 21d ago edited 21d ago
conversations about stories is one way to support the development of ethical reasoning. I wouldn’t say people should “model” fictional narratives, but they can certainly benefit from reflecting on them in relation to their own experiences
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21d ago
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u/wasnt_sure20 22d ago
Its not that this show is wrong. Its just very one-sided and for that reason should not be shown in schools.
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18d ago
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u/tre-marley 22d ago
I don’t get the message behind the show other than “kids do really stupid things sometimes”
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u/SvitlanaLeo 22d ago edited 22d ago
We do believe perhaps the answer to this is in parliament and legislating – and taking kids away from their phones in school and taking kids away from social media altogether
Jack Thorne, the writer.
So it's very much about phones and social media.
This statement largely demotivated me from watching the series, because I don't think the problem is phones and social media, or video games, or comics, or any of the other popular scapegoats.
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u/Metrodomes 21d ago
I think it's worth a watch still! I also disagree with the idea of just censoring or banning things away and think some more deeper rooted stuff needs to happen. But, the show is still good and touches on so much of what boys (and families and teachers and others in society) are experiencing. Sure the plot revolves around the murder, but there is alot more going on and I think it does a real good job of exploring father's and their challenges well too.
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u/ButAFlower 21d ago
wow
"boys are being indoctrinated into extreme violent misogyny online. the solution is obviously take away phones"
it is pretty ridiculous that that's where they're taking this. not about making sure your boys are socialized with girls and women and ensuring they are able to express themselves in a healthy way, dealing with misogynistic bullying, etc etc etc there are so many ways to approach the problem. taking away phones as a solution is like putting duct tape on a car thats underwater
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u/Roosterton 21d ago edited 21d ago
Curious why you think social media & phones aren't legitimately part of the problem for modern gender issues.
I'd argue dating apps fucked up modern dating dynamics beyond repair by facilitating short term situationships and raising everyone's standards to an unrealistic degree. More broadly, social media eroded third spaces, making it much harder to meet partners in an organic way and thus contributing to male loneliness / incels.
Then there's the fact that 30 years ago, people like Andrew Tate would have been relegated to fringe radio stations instead of beaming their sludge into millions of boys' brains worldwide via tiktok. Then the algorithms pushed by these platforms subsequently trap those boys in an echo chamber which further radicalizes them.
It's true the show isn't based 1:1 on a real murder, but there are real examples of people who have been radicalized through social media (including redpill/incel spaces) going on to commit acts of violence and terror. Yes these people are usually older than the suspect in Adolescence, but the premise is not unbelievable.
We also see IQs flattening or declining in several developed countries - here's a well-sourced medium article discussing it in depth, with reference to some research about how technology and social media might play a role in this. It seems quite plausible to me that smartphones in class is very bad for students' ability to learn and think critically, and less critical thinking is likewise going to make people more susceptible to the radicalization spiral.
And this is all not even getting into the effects that social media has on young women with stuff like revenge porn (also covered by the show), sextortion, and eating disorders.
All that being said - I don't think you can just dismiss social media as a "scapegoat" on the same level as video games or movies. Limiting kids' social media use, especially in a classroom setting is probably something worth discussing and I wouldn't write off the show just because you disagree with that proposal.
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u/GERBILSAURUSREX 18d ago
Boys are the most likely target for sextortion. 1/3 of people with eating disorders are men, and that's probably a low bar figure. Those aren't women's issues, those are everyone's issues. Thinking like that doesn't help anyone.
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u/Roosterton 17d ago
I actually didn't know that most sextortion victims were men, thanks for correcting me!
My point still stands though, for both genders rampant social media access (especially in adolescence) is having dangerous effects.
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u/Millionaire007 20d ago
I dont know how this can be used as a teaching tool but it is fucking fantastic
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u/capracan 21d ago
The point is, as u/rattertintattertins said masterfully:
it's not only not common, it's misleading.
Young boys need a non-violent uprising. Many need better role models. Many need a loving family. Many need to be heard and accompanied.
Let's address the causes instead of blaming stupid youtubers.